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Low tier should also say "does not attack".
The wights are immune to taking damage from negative energy, so they are not staggered by enveloping mists.
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Just read through. Interesting premise. Some questions though to others prepping.
First question is on Encounter B1
A little confused on the last encounter in B5. Maybe it's implied but I can't find it implicitly stated.
Alternatively, is it that you either fight the possessed Jaohd, or the incorporeal undead that possesses him?
I can make up lots of tactics for this encounter, but I'm wondering what the intent was.
First question is on Encounter B1
** spoiler omitted **
I haven't seen the final PDF, so I can't answer this one.
A little confused on the last encounter in B5. Maybe it's implied but I can't find it implicitly stated.
** spoiler omitted **
I'll answer this using a spoiler tag ...
Hope that helps!
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A little confused on the last encounter in B5. Maybe it's implied but I can't find it implicitly stated.
** spoiler omitted **
I'll answer this using a spoiler tag ...
** spoiler omitted **
Hope that helps!
That answers the question implicitly. As I said. I could make up tactics until I the cows came home, but it's PFS so I wanted to measure intent. Yours follows what I was thinking, so cool.
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Developer
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Just read through. Interesting premise. Some questions though to others prepping.
First question is on Encounter B1
** spoiler omitted **
A little confused on the last encounter in B5. Maybe it's implied but I can't find it implicitly stated.
** spoiler omitted **
For B5, basically, what Tom said.
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Had a lot of fun playing this one with MisterSlanky GMing. Was a real challenge for a Lust (enchantments) specialist, but was able to tweak my spell selection to give more options. Love that durations matter on buff spells.
The possession was interesting, too... Was not a shock with "Jhoad" attacked me... But it was one when the ghost flew out of his body after I used Hold Person on him! Guess it was a good thing that I had used up a large portion of my spells by this time (and missed the concentration check on Glitterdust her. I could "sparkle-bomb four PCs).
Great challenge, and one where many different types of characters will shine!
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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Reading through... it seams like Rogues will not be shining. Most of the things in here can't be sneak attacked. Also, most things are incorporeal (as can be expected from the title). Most people will have magic weapons by high tier, but ghostbane is a bit of a niche case.
You start off at the Spires, so the party doesn't have a chance to go shopping to get stuff after the briefing. While this is nice narratively, it'd be nice if you were told in Drenchport (or whereever Benarry picks you up) "Hey, you're going to a place called the Labyrinth of Hungry Ghosts - you might want to grab some stuff for dealing with ghosts."
Another option: A previous scenario with Benarry (Fate of the Fiend) included this line: "If the PCs need to purchase any gear, the Grinning Pixie’s quartermaster can sell them nearly any mundane or alchemical gear in addition to magic items worth 2,500 gp or less." Should that be in effect here as well?
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Another option: A previous scenario with Benarry (Fate of the Fiend) included this line: "If the PCs need to purchase any gear, the Grinning Pixie’s quartermaster can sell them nearly any mundane or alchemical gear in addition to magic items worth 2,500 gp or less." Should that be in effect here as well?
It's on the bottom right-hand corner of page 5
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Reading through... it seams like Rogues will not be shining. Most of the things in here can't be sneak attacked. Also, most things are incorporeal (as can be expected from the title). Most people will have magic weapons by high tier, but ghostbane is a bit of a niche case.
Depending on the tier, number of players, and the party's actions they may only have to fight two incorporeal creatures.
I ran this for a low-tier party of four including two rogues. Very few chances to sneak attack, but they weren't really necessary. Each rogue was carrying one of the pouches of Grave Salt and that was actually the star of the show in the final fight. They decided to fight Tzur-Vaal while he was chilling in the Oblivion Shaft. With no magical ranged weapons they just kept chucking salt at him. Eventually they knocked off 19 points of Charisma, dropping him to 6 max HP remaining (and to AC 13). That was enough for one positive channel to kill him even in the Shaft.
The fights went long but I think the salt and the wand of ghostbane dirge kept this from being an impossible scenario.
One of the hardest things to keep rolling along with was keeping up appearance with Tzur-Vaal. The party is going to come across a reason to be suspicious of him at some point. For my party it was when they rested after the haunt room (on the go for over a day at that point) and he couldn't prepare lesser restoration for them. He explained that he had just missed the time of day when he prays to his deity for spells and then "aided" the party by "making a really good dungeoneering check" to lead them through the maze very quickly from then on out so they wouldn't get suspicious if they rested again.
Especially with a group of experienced players it's best to just give an outline of a reason and let them fill in the details on their own.
"No, I cannot stay outside, I must find the others!"
"Oh, I guess as a paladin he has to protect his compatriots."
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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Another option: A previous scenario with Benarry (Fate of the Fiend) included this line: "If the PCs need to purchase any gear, the Grinning Pixie’s quartermaster can sell them nearly any mundane or alchemical gear in addition to magic items worth 2,500 gp or less." Should that be in effect here as well?It's on the bottom right-hand corner of page 5
And I'm blind, because I had just read the paragraph below that. Thanks.
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We played this high-tier with the four player adjustment. We had 6 players of which only two were sixth. Everyone was lower.
I also enjoyed this one with Mr. Slanky GMing, but it was a tough scenario. We had no characters that were really built for dealing with incorporeal undead, but the party we brought to the table was versatile and had high system mastery. Despite this, we had a rough time even with me providing countersong to the sonic effects, and with my spellwarrior skald counterpart making all our weapons ghost touch.
Today, I watched a group play through it that had an even rougher time, avoiding the TPK by the skin of their teeth. The only thing that saved them was a Magic Circle v. Evil spell and sure grit and determination. Without really good prep, or the right kind of divine caster / necromancer, this could be a deadly scenario.
I did love the boon, though! As a Calisro Benarry fan, I squee'ed when I saw what we could get with 1PP on that chronicle sheet. Jasmine is totally buying that item. Thank you for including it.
Hmm
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I had the opportunity to run this one on Saturday. I will warn anybody planning on GMing, this one is a prep monster (at least if you want to run it well). Trying to keep up the guide of the Paladin plus juggling some fairly complicated mechanics made things tough. I did not have the situation Kevin did (I had the group just barely convinced, and they were surprised when they figured out what was really going on), but I can understand why it could be hard to keep up appearances with a group.
If the party does not figure out the ruse before the last fight, the last fight can be pretty horrible (especially if you don't have a countersonger or silencer in the group). I do though think running the fight in the shaft is overkill though, the encounter with Tzur-Vaal should be occuring prior to that room, as to not give him an even greater advantage.
One thing to remember while GMing (and remind the characters of if they're struggling is the following rule tidbit under the incorporeal subtype, "An incorporeal creature has no physical body. An incorporeal creature is immune to critical hits and precision-based damage (such as sneak attack damage) unless the attacks are made using a weapon with the ghost touch special weapon quality." Meaning, the wand of ghostbane dirge, though it has a 50% miss chance itself on an incorporeal target, once it's registered, sneak attacks and critical hits do in fact work against it.
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If the party does not figure out the ruse before the last fight, the last fight can be pretty horrible (especially if you don't have a countersonger or silencer in the group). I do though think running the fight in the shaft is overkill though, the encounter with Tzur-Vaal should be occuring prior to that room, as to not give him an even greater advantage.
The last fight was by far the most challenging. Allips can be nasty but since you are immune to a specific allip once you save its not terrible (especially since their relatively low attack bonus means they often attack a fascinated creature - breaking the effect - but miss.)
Tzur-Vaal's tactics call for him to fight in the Shaft once Aluu-Nevka is killed. But if the party flees he will follow them. As long as you are adequately describing the healing he is receiving I think it's a good chance for parties to learn "sometimes you need to run."One thing to remember while GMing (and remind the characters of if they're struggling is the following rule tidbit under the incorporeal subtype, "An incorporeal creature has no physical body. An incorporeal creature is immune to critical hits and precision-based damage (such as sneak attack damage) unless the attacks are made using a weapon with the ghost touch special weapon quality." Meaning, the wand of ghostbane dirge, though it has a 50% miss chance itself on an incorporeal target, once it's registered, sneak attacks and critical hits do in fact work against it.
Ghostbane dirge does not have a miss chance (though there is a save). I don't believe it allows criticals and sneak attack to function as it "coalesces into a semi-physical form" and still only takes half damage from non-magical weapons. Is there a FAQ stating otherwise?
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Ghostbane dirge does not have a miss chance (though there is a save). I don't believe it allows criticals and sneak attack to function as it "coalesces into a semi-physical form" and still only takes half damage from non-magical weapons. Is there a FAQ stating otherwise?
@Kevin:
Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature.
Nothing in ghostbane dirge counteracts that statement.
However, on rereading the spell, incorporeal quality, and incorporeal undead subtype, I would tend to agree with you on the critical/sneak attack piece.
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Bah, you're right about the miss chance. The Bestiary includes that language but the CRB (where I was looking) does not.
You know, if I had written ghostbane dirge I would have it ignore that part. It already suffers from SR and requires a saving throw, as well as being a very limited duration. And it's a spell specifically designed to affect incorporeal creatures.
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I agree 100% that it should ignore the miss chance... but...
On the other hand, in addition to the higher save DC, that wrapping should have allowed it to bypass the miss chance :)
In developing the scenario, I thought that the spell did not suffer a 50% mischance. Making an official ruling on the spell would be a matter for the design team, but for PFS purposes, I'll take Jack's solution.
The wrapping around the wand of ghostbane dirge allows it to bypass the 50% mischance.
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As long as you are adequately describing the healing he is receiving I think it's a good chance for parties to learn "sometimes you need to run."
The lesson that got me to quit PFS for 2 years...
Ghostbane dirge does not have a miss chance (though there is a save). I don't believe it allows criticals and sneak attack to function as it "coalesces into a semi-physical form" and still only takes half damage from non-magical weapons. Is there a FAQ stating otherwise?
We looked this one up. Please reference where Ghostbane Dirge does not have the 50% miss chance. The incorporeal type gives a 50% on all spells, so it should have the same penalty as anything. I'll try to dig out the rules route we followed.
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Here's our path to figuring out Ghostbane Dirge.
Ghostly qualities include...
Ghosts have the incorporeal subtype and the incorporeal defensive ability.
The Incorporeal subtype reads...
An incorporeal creature has no physical body. An incorporeal creature is immune to critical hits and precision-based damage (such as sneak attack damage) unless the attacks are made using a weapon with the ghost touch special weapon quality. In addition, creatures with the incorporeal subtype gain the incorporeal special quality.
The Incorporeal Monster Rules reade..
An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source (except for channel energy). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead. Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature. Force spells and effects, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorporeal creature normally.
So the ruling would be
A casting of ghostbane dirge is subject to the Incorporeal Monster Rule of "Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature".
Assuming that you make the 50% check, save is successful, etc. Then the subject takes full damage, doesn't get a 50% miss chance on spells/spell-like abilities, as noted.
Now, if you can get ghost touch (not ghostbane dirge) on your weapons, then rather than referecing the Incorporeal Monster Rule, you have to go to the Incorporeal Subtype and read that..."An incorporeal creature is immune to critical hits and precision-based damage (such as sneak attack damage) unless the attacks are made using a weapon with the ghost touch special weapon quality."
At this point they're subject to critical hits and sneak attack.
It's kind of a double whammy. My group didn't use the ghostbane dirge to cancel out the Monster Rule, but rather ghost touch to cancel out the incorporeal subtype.
Aaah Pathfinder rules complications and the need to look in four places for the rule.
The clarification
Regardless of what I just wrote though, the discussion of ghostbane dirge is moot per this post here.
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I agree 100% that it should ignore the miss chance... but...
On the other hand, in addition to the higher save DC, that wrapping should have allowed it to bypass the miss chance :)
In developing the scenario, I thought that the spell did not suffer a 50% mischance. Making an official ruling on the spell would be a matter for the design team, but for PFS purposes, I'll take Jack's solution.
The wrapping around the wand of ghostbane dirge allows it to bypass the 50% mischance.
Thank you, Linda.
I think that's a fantastic solution to the problem... we don't have to tell the PCs that it will work, but just let it work. At levels 3-4, that might be the only way that they can survive certain fights (since they may not have magic weapons, yet).
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Venture-Agent, Minnesota
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Linda and Jack, that's a fantastic solution to the problem!
It would have made a huge difference in the game I witnessed on Sunday. They ended the battle with three of the players down, and the other three huddled in a protection from evil spell, desperately trying to hit the ghost with magic weapons and cure light spells... They nearly went down because they could not get the Ghostbane Dirge wand to work!
Hmm
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They ended the battle with three of the players down, and the other three huddled in a protection from evil spell, desperately trying to hit the ghost with magic weapons and cure light spells... They nearly went down because they could not get the Ghostbane Dirge wand to work!Hmm
I'm curious what the Protection from evil spell did beyond provide a +2 to AC. Protection from evil prevents mental control of the target (and specifies specific examples via enchantment) but does not prevent possession. In fact, the spell specifically indicates that you can possess somebody protected, you just cannot cause any control over the target.
In this case I'd suspect the ghost smart enough to know that he just needs to wait out the duration of the spell. Now, I realize that in the scope of a game, this timing is problematic, but it's worth noting that it's not really the magic bullet.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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Would be interesting to take a Dhampir in there (rare, I know). Or something else that had reversed takes on negative energy. "What do you mean the scenario's over? This well feels great!"
Death domain gives it to clerics, but not till level 8, so the scenario's safe from them.
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When I read about the oblivion shaft I thought it would be amazing if the next scenario of the series starts with Venture-Captain Benarry suggesting the Pathfinders drink from the Chalice of Undeath that appeared in You Only Die Twice. It would be a cool connection to past scenarios and show that the Pathfinders use the artifacts they find when it is appropriate.
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I ran a table of Ghosts last night.
Questions if I run this again:
1) What happens if a possessed Jaohd is caught in a positive channel energy to damage undead accidentally or intentionally?
a) Nothing
b) Damage directed to Jaohd's body
c) Damage directed to Tzur-Vaal soul
d) If b) or c) is there any outward appearance that would alert the party. I'm not sure if I've ever heard anyone describe what it looks like while its affecting an undead.2) What happens (if anything) if holy water is thrown or splashed on a possessed Jaohd?
3) Does the hazard that was previously clarified to only affect walls not floors, affect doors?
4) Does the allip's babble break fascinate on creatures currently fascinated by a different allip? For example, allip1 emerges from the silence area and some PCs are fascinated. Allip2 emerges, what happens:
a) All fascinated by allip1 freed and all make a new will save to against allip2?
b) All fascinated by allip1 get a new save against allip1, and all free after that make a new will save to against allip2?
c) Only those free make a will save to avoid allip2 fascinate?
d) Only those free make a will save to avoid allip2 fascinate, but when those fascinated by allip1 are freed then they save against allip2?
e) All make a new will save to avoid allip2 fascinate and track the babbles concurrently?
f) something else?
1 and 2 both affect the physical body. When a creature is possessed it has the mental traits of the possessor but the physical attributes of the possessed. So for those two it wouldn't have an effect. However other effects like smite evil would affect him. It's a bit grey but my rule of thumb is to look at whether there's any mental component to the effect.
1. Nothing
2. He gets wet.
3. It's really just a cool effect to describe, so I would totally let it happen on a door if no one is touching the wall. Don't try and make it a "gotcha."
4. e. Each allip is tracked independently. One important thing to note is that even though the fascinate has a duration, characters are not immune after the duration ends (or the fascinate is broken in some other way). At the start of each allip's turn each character who has not made a save and is not currently fascinated by that allip needs to make a new save. In practice this means that even if you are fascinated by several you will gradually become immune to them as you pass saves.
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Just played through it and I loved it.
I'd also like to throw a shout out to the author, for...
(also... Another paladin of Shelyn! We even got to save him! :DDDDD)
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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I was a player in this scenario, and thought it may be useful to get some clarification on how the Allip fascination effect works.
Fascinated: A fascinated creature is entranced by a supernatural or spell effect. The creature stands or sits quietly, taking no actions other than to pay attention to the fascinating effect, for as long as the effect lasts. It takes a –4 penalty on skill checks made as reactions, such as Perception checks. Any potential threat, such as a hostile creature approaching, allows the fascinated creature a new saving throw against the fascinating effect. Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the fascinated creature, automatically breaks the effect. A fascinated creature's ally may shake it free of the spell as a standard action.
Babble (Su) An allip constantly mutters to itself, creating a hypnotic effect. All sane creatures within 60 feet of the allip must succeed at a DC 15 Will save or be fascinated for 2d4 rounds. While a target is fascinated, the allip can approach it without breaking the effect, but an attack by the allip does end the effect. Creatures that successfully save cannot be affected by the same allip's babble for 24 hours. This is a sonic, mind-affecting compulsion effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.
My interpretation is that if any Hostile creature besides the Allip which has you fascinated approaches or attacks or threatens you, this should give you another save as stated in the general fascinated condition above.
The way the GM ruled was that only the Allip which has you fascinated can potentially break the fascination, and all other hostile creatures can pummel away on you. This led to 5 of 6 players fascinated, and the GM basically rolling dice by himself for about 30 minutes.SO, maybe if the way the Babble interacts with other hostile creatures can be clarified here, future tables won't be twiddling their thumbs for longer than necessary.
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My interpretation is that if any Hostile creature besides the Allip which has you fascinated approaches or attacks or threatens you, this should give you another save as stated in the general fascinated condition above.
The way the GM ruled was that only the Allip which has you fascinated can potentially break the fascination, and all other hostile creatures can pummel away on you. This led to 5 of 6 players fascinated, and the GM basically rolling dice by himself for about 30 minutes.SO, maybe if the way the Babble interacts with other hostile creatures can be clarified here, future tables won't be twiddling their...
You're correct, anything can snap you out of a fascination, including a standard action from an ally or (I believe) any damage.
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Please consider posting a review (good or bad). It's a great way to help me hone my scenario writing skills. Plus, if there are enough good reviews maybe, just maybe, we'll get to return to the Gloomspires some day. Who wants to know what lurks at the bottom of the Oblivion Shaft? (Trust me, your characters don't.) ;-)
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Ghostbane dirge does not have a miss chance (though there is a save). I don't believe it allows criticals and sneak attack to function as it "coalesces into a semi-physical form" and still only takes half damage from non-magical weapons. Is there a FAQ stating otherwise?We looked this one up. Please reference where Ghostbane Dirge does not have the 50% miss chance. The incorporeal type gives a 50% on all spells, so it should have the same penalty as anything. I'll try to dig out the rules route we followed.
The target for Ghostbane Dirge is "one incorporeal creature": to me, that indicates that it should effect incorporeal subtypes.
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Ghostbane dirge does not have a miss chance (though there is a save). I don't believe it allows criticals and sneak attack to function as it "coalesces into a semi-physical form" and still only takes half damage from non-magical weapons. Is there a FAQ stating otherwise?We looked this one up. Please reference where Ghostbane Dirge does not have the 50% miss chance. The incorporeal type gives a 50% on all spells, so it should have the same penalty as anything. I'll try to dig out the rules route we followed.The target for Ghostbane Dirge is "one incorporeal creature": to me, that indicates that it should effect incorporeal subtypes.
I see how you might read it like that but the description of the target within the spell description should in no way invalidate existing type/subtype effects or other restrictions.
For example, the target for the spell Suggestion is 'one living creature'.
The language dependent requirement does not cease to exist because the target is indeed 'one living creature'.
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Well this particular ghostbane dirge was clarified.
In developing the scenario, I thought that the spell did not suffer a 50% mischance. Making an official ruling on the spell would be a matter for the design team, but for PFS purposes, I'll take Jack's solution.
The wrapping around the wand of ghostbane dirge allows it to bypass the 50% mischance.
So it's pretty much a moot point. All spells against incorporeal opponents have a 50% miss chance (as Eindridi demonstrated). This one does not.
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We played this at my local store yesterday: 2 tables, one at each subtier.
Both tables only got 1 prestige, because the paladin died. Playing at low tier, we had an archer rapid shot him and get a "lucky" crit on the second shot after the first knocked him down to staggered, so he went down hard. The high tier table told us that he bled out after going down in their fight.
Overall, this is a pretty brutal adventure. We were right on the cusp of being forced to play up with the low tier adjustment, because half our group was level 5, but we still had a very tough time in that final fight with the allips, possessed paladin, and the ghosts.
It was a lot of fun, though. Our bard sang his way through the one encounter with the ghost lady, so we made friends with her. When she asked for her ashes to be spread out to sea, my cleric of Besmara (Green Beard - because what else would you call a half-orc pirate?) was happy to do it.
Green Beard needs to find adventures with less undead, though. This is his second in a row where he's faced undead that were immune to most of his best stuff. As a negative channeling cleric, he felt a little useless, though he had plenty of other useful spells and abilities, and he was the one wielding the wand of Ghostbane Dirge. Luckily, we also had a positive channeling cleric in the party, which helped a LOT.
Green Beard's biggest complaint is that even after proving his bravery and loyalty to the Society by visiting the Gloomspires twice, Venture-Captain Calisro Benarry still won't agree to marry him!
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Ghostbane dirge does not have a miss chance (though there is a save). I don't believe it allows criticals and sneak attack to function as it "coalesces into a semi-physical form" and still only takes half damage from non-magical weapons. Is there a FAQ stating otherwise?We looked this one up. Please reference where Ghostbane Dirge does not have the 50% miss chance. The incorporeal type gives a 50% on all spells, so it should have the same penalty as anything. I'll try to dig out the rules route we followed.The target for Ghostbane Dirge is "one incorporeal creature": to me, that indicates that it should effect incorporeal subtypes.
I see how you might read it like that but the description of the target within the spell description should in no way invalidate existing type/subtype effects or other restrictions.
For example, the target for the spell Suggestion is 'one living creature'.
The language dependent requirement does not cease to exist because the target is indeed 'one living creature'.
But the language limitation is included as part of the Suggestion spell: "[language-dependent, mind-affecting]". If the Suggestion spell did not include that line, then it would not require you to have a common language if you cast it on a "living creature".
Likewise, it has the description "mind-effecting" so it specifically won't work on mindless living creatures. Those descriptors are limitations on the valid target "living creature".
What words in Ghostbane Dirge puts limitations on the target "incorporeal creature"? I don't see any.
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Losing the main mission: 1 pp
Missing out on final room loot: around 1,100 gp
Using ghost touch to smooch the lady: priceless
You are my spirit animal.
I couldn't find it in the possession rules, but I ruled that a Protection from Evil cast on a possessed person granted a new save (after you make a touch attack to deliver the spell).
It does and with a +2 moral bonus to the save, details are under Protection From Evil (spell). If they have it up ahead of time, it makes them immune to possession vs. evil aligned creatures. It's a pretty great spell for that fight, to be sure.
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The Gloomspires are permanently enshrouded in wind-resistant mists that operate like fog cloud, albeit providing concealment up to 20' and total concealment > 20'. So, walking around the surface is particularly creepy. However, that leaves me with some questions.
One possible solution is to treat the howling wind as equivalent to Gust of Wind that has temporarily displaced the mists and/or reduced the effect or extended visibility. However, in either case, the fire probably isn't doing very well (or reasonably can't even remain lit).
Do you have any preferred environment or tactics suggestions to help resolve these issues? Thanks!
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I was momentarily confused. You're right. In the concealment case, with Improved Precise Shot, she would ignore the concealment miss chance and both Precise Shot and Improved Precise Shot function as normal, ignoring melee. Sorry.
However, in the total concealment case (more than 20' away), it seems like neither feat would function. With total concealment, you can only attack a square not an opponent (that you can't see).
Anyway - I would still appreciate additional suggestions re: the environment and/or tactics, since they seem to collide with the Gloomspires' mist effect.