Hi!
I need help building my Eldritch Knight. Let me come first to the role in our party. We will play the Wrath of the Rightous campaign and besides acting as a damage dealer melee I have to cast spells like
Oppressive Boredom (Enchantment), Hold Monster (Enchantment, Dimensional Anchor (Abjuration), Magic Circle against Evil (Abjuration), Anti-Summoning Shield (Abjuration) to fulfill the demon hunter role as well. Up till know I have not played spellcasters very frequently so I need some help.
The character ideas is as follows
1 Level Wizard or Arcanist (need some advice here)
2 Fighter
3-12 Eldritch Knight
13-20 Hell Knight Signifier
I play an aasimar (daylight) to fulfill the 3rd-level arcane spells so I can get into Eldritch Knight at level 3 (source).
My questions at the beginning woudl be if I should go Wizard or Arcanist and if I should use a archetyp for them and for the fighter?
Thx in advance!
You don't meet the requirements for Eldritch Knight. You must be able to cast 3rd level spells, so you'll need 5 levels of Wizard first.
I'd recommend being a transmuter. 5 levels will give you a free +2 bonus to one physical ability score.
Also, start out with one level of fighter for the maximized HD at level 1.
Yeah, SLA's haven't worked for most prereqs for some time. The only time they work now is if the prereq calls out the spell by name (e.g. Mage hand) and your SLA matches it.
A pure wizard who does melee is possible; in this thread scroll down to Rory's build.
Also, a skald using spell kenning can cast off-list spells in some situations and has no problem being competent in melee.
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As mentioned SLAs no longer count for PrC early entry. Consult your GM, they may rule otherwise.
A while back I built a sample char, never got the chance to run it, but it seemed like it may be fun.
Elf
Level 10
1 Swashbuckler Inspired Blade
2 Arcanist Blade Adept
3 Arcanist Blade Adept
4 Arcanist Blade Adept
5 Arcanist Blade Adept
6 Arcanist Blade Adept
7 Arcanist Blade Adept
8 Eldritch Knight
9 Eldritch Knight
10 Eldritch Knight
Traits: Magical Knack
Feats:
1 Fencing Grace
3 Extra Arcanist Exploit: Eldritch Blade
5 Extra Arcanist Exploit: Spell Strike
6 Exploit: (Weapon Specialization, or Metamagic Knowledge Intensified Spell or Arcane Strike)
7 Extra Arcanist Exploit: (Metamagic Knowledge Intensified Spell, or Weapon Specialization, or Arcane Strike)
8 Improved Initiative
9 Extra Arcanist Exploit: Whichever is left
It lacks the medium armor proficiency needed for HKS but I think it makes up for it. Could drop one of the Extra Exploits to pick up proficiency as well if ya really wanted to go HKS.
Cool! Thanks! I have two questions.
1. What are the important abilities for this build? I guess I need Str for attack and Int for spellcasting. But I am not sure about charisma due to the sorcerer within the arcanist.
2. How do you get e.g. Eldritch Blade at level 3 since Sentient Sword replaces the arcanist exploid gained at 3rd Level.
Both for inspired blade and arcanist cha 7-13 has the same effect, and 14 isn't a big boost. So you dump cha and breathe a sigh of relief. You need con and some dex for surviving, you can't dump either, and dropping wis too far hurts too.
You're right, extra exploit doesn't work until you get an exploit from your class - arcanist 5 i.e. character level 6, so the 7th level feat minimum. It's a bug in his suggested build.
Cool! Thanks! I have one question. What are the important abilities for this build? I guess I need Str for attack and Int for spellcasting. But I am not sure about charisma due to the sorcerer within the arcanist.
For my build we ignore STR as it takes a level 1 dip into Inspired Blade Swashbuckler, which grants us free Weapon Focus and Weapon Finesse with Rapiers, so at level 1 we take Fencing Grace and gain dex to hit and damage right off the bat.
The build itself is pretty similar to a Magus and Intensified Shocking Grasps are likely to be a popular choice, however the Arcanist casting opens up other options through the Arcane Reservoir and a wider spell list. The Blade Adept grants us a blackblade like the Bladebound Magus archetype as well, and thanks to Eldritch Blade, and Magical Knack, will progress as if you had full caster levels since Magical Knack makes up for the 2 we lost through the Swashbuckler dip and the first level of EK, and Eldritch Blade uses that instead of our Arcanist levels.
For stats, 20 pt buy
8 STR
16+2 18 DEX
10 CON
12+2 14 INT
10 WIS
16 CHA
Not a great array, and the lack of CON will hurt certainly, especially as a gish. Level 4 and 8 bonuses will go towards INT. An INT headband should suffice from there. Picking up a belt of DEX and CON is pretty important.
You're right, extra exploit doesn't work until you get an exploit from your class - arcanist 5 i.e. character level 6, so the 7th level feat minimum. It's a bug in his suggested build.
If that is the case then yea, the build completely falls apart and cannot function at all at that point. I'd like to believe a GM would ignore it though as it's hardly a dangerous thing.
I read through the classes now. The arcanist gets arcanist exploit at Level 1, doesn't he match the Prerequisite of Arcanist exploit class feature with this?
Is there any reason why your char is higher than you int? I went through the class and nothing in it is cha dependent when you do not build on exploits that need charisma.
I read through the classes now. The arcanist gets arcanist exploit at Level 1, doesn't he match the Prerequisite of Arcanist exploit class feature with this?
Is there any reason why your char is higher than you int? I went through the class and nothing in it is cha dependent when you do not build on exploits that need charisma.
With regards to Arcanist Exploit that was my understanding of it. You have the feature, you just can't make an actual choice with it until level 5 Arcanist, thus the feat works. But who knows how that actually is. Comes down to GM I suppose.
Good question. As mentioned I did this a while back but most likely my intention was to get some benefit out of Panache and Opportune Parry and Riposte from the Swashbuckler dip. By no means is the stat array 100% and I'm sure I fudged those numbers around a great deal while I was tinkering with this.
I am overseeing something here but I just do not undertand Eldritch
Blade. Could you help me understanding it, so what it is good for?
I am overseeing something here but I just do not undertand Eldritch Blade. Could you help me understanding it, so what it is good for?
Normally, the abilities of the sentient sword are dependent on the arcanist class levels, which means levels in eldritch knight/hellknight signifier will not advance the sword abilities. The Edritch Blade arcana makes the sword's advancement dependent on caster level, which means prestige classes that advance caster level (as well as the Magical Knack trait) will also increase the sword abilities.
With regards to Arcanist Exploit that was my understanding of it. You have the feature, you just can't make an actual choice with it until level 5 Arcanist, thus the feat works. But who knows how that actually is. Comes down to GM I suppose.I read through the classes now. The arcanist gets arcanist exploit at Level 1, doesn't he match the Prerequisite of Arcanist exploit class feature with this?
Is there any reason why your char is higher than you int? I went through the class and nothing in it is cha dependent when you do not build on exploits that need charisma.
Sword Bond and Sentient Sword both have the wording "This ability replaces the arcanist exploit(s)..." (emphasis mine) at 1st and 3rd level (and 9th). The base rules on archetypes are clear: "A character with an alternate class feature due to an archetype doesn't count as having the class feature that was replaced for the purpose of meeting any requirements or prerequisites." Also, "...all abilities in that series are delayed until the next time the class improves that ability."
So, the blade adept does not count as having the exploit class feature until 5th level.
For a 20 point buy, I'd go with:
10 Str, 18 Dex (16 + 2), 13 Con, 16 Int (14 + 2), 10 Wis, 12 Cha; if using the Dual Talent alternate racial trait
10 Str, 17 Dex (15 + 2), 12 Con, 14 Int, 10 Wis, 11 Cha; if keeping the bonus feat and Skilled
Keeping the bonus feat allows the character to take Toughness at 1st level, as well as Fencing Grace (assuming the character is going inspired blade swashbuckler 1/blade adept arcanist).
I have one more question since I am selecting my feats atm. If I have Sentient Sword (Black Blade) and the weapon has an enchantment bonus of +x the weapon is magic. Do I still need the spell strike feat? Since the arcane strike feats says that my weapon is "treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction" but the black blade is magic anyway so this looks redundant to my. Am I right?
Spell Strike is used to deliver touch spell attacks using your weapon. So you might cast Frostbite for example and be able to hit your enemies with weapon damage + 1d6 + 1/level damage on each hit. Damage type is not directly related, I'm not sure what you're getting at there.
Oh right, arcane strike not spell strike. No, you don't especially want arcane strike, the damage bonus isn't worth it for the feat and swift action cost.
Spell Strike is used to deliver touch spell attacks using your weapon. So you might cast Frostbite for example and be able to hit your enemies with weapon damage + 1d6 + 1/level damage on each hit. Damage type is not directly related, I'm not sure what you're getting at there.
I think he's confusing Arcane Strike with Spell Strike.
Anyway you don't have to use my build concept, as mentioned before apparently you can't even take Extra Exploit until level 7 with it, which pretty thoroughly guts the build unless your DM is fine with allowing it earlier.
I find the strongest EK is generally Urban Barbarian 1/etc. A little Extra Rage and a Furious Weapon, and you've got +3s when you switch into melee mode. Urban means Rage has no AC penalty and works for either STR or DEX. It does mean switching to melee kind of ends spellcasting (unless you drop Rage), but that's usually how it goes anyhow - you don't charge dangerous foes and then decide to cast spells.
Spell Sage Wizard and Preferred Spell gets you spontaneous Divine Favor, which crossed with Heroism makes an EK seriously accurate.
Strength-based EK has issues like needing Arcane Armor Training for a mithral kikko, but it does better damage and makes much better use of polymorph stuff.
Blade Adept certainly has its uses. But taking an even slower spell progression is kind of brutal, and personally I prefer an uber-customized Arcane Bond weapon to a fixed-stats black blade.
Dual Talent Human goes a long way when you need two good ability scores.
My GM said that he allows taking Extra Arcanist Exploits so I can start with building my char that you can find here.
We will go into the worldwound (Wrath of the Righteous) so I plan having something against demons up my leaves (Calcific Touch/ Frigid Touch/ Vampiric Touch). I also try to do some True Strike + Combat Maneuvers and try to be prepared for the high demon SR. I know there are probably much better alternatives than the blade adept but my background story is set around the blade so I would like to stick with it. There are still a lot slots open I do not know to fill yet and maybe the choosen ones are not good (this is the first time building an arcanist and we have not played higher than Level9 and never with mystics yet). Here I will go with the archmage I guess this is the best choice. Would be nice if you could give me a hand building this.
My GM said that he allows taking Extra Arcanist Exploits so I can start with building my char that you can find here.
We will go into the worldwound (Wrath of the Righteous) so I plan having something against demons up my leaves (Calcific Touch/ Frigid Touch/ Vampiric Touch). I also try to do some True Strike + Combat Maneuvers and try to be prepared for the high demon SR. I know there are probably much better alternatives than the blade adept but my background story is set around the blade so I would like to stick with it. There are still a lot slots open I do not know to fill yet and maybe the choosen ones are not good (this is the first time building an arcanist and we have not played higher than Level9 and never with mystics yet). Here I will go with the archmage I guess this is the best choice. Would be nice if you could give me a hand building this.
Well if you're doing WotR then the main weakness of this build, the slow start, will be circumvented by just how fast you level in WotR. By the end of book 1 of WotR you'll be level 6, and Mythic will definitely help with it further.
Archmage is definitely an extremely powerful Mythic choice. Make sure you pick Wild Arcana as your choice and you'll basically never run out of spells.
I also played a Hellknight Signifer in Wrath of the Righteous, and had a similar idea to yours at the start - my plan was to play a Fighter-Cleric-Hellknight-Hellknight Signifer.
What I ended up discovering was that the game really requires/expects you to be a full caster, and as the only cleric in the party, my build soon changed to Cleric/Hellknight Signifer/Holy Vindicator.
I had an incredible time,founded my own Hellknight Order (the Order of the Lesion), and worked on self-actualizing into becoming a dedicated deity for the Hellknights with three instances of Divine Source (Mythic Paragon helped ensure that I could grant my highest level spells I was capable of casting, and in a few cases, got spell access a little early on a limited basis.)
The Hellknight party addition has plenty of RP opportunity in the campaign.
my problem is still the damage. Going into the blade archetypes and using almost all my feats for this should end up in damage but this is not the case.
Well, there's only so far you can go with a dex-to-damage build that isn't getting typical martial character buffs like the fighter's weapon training and weapon specialization. If you don't even have Power Attack, it's going to be pretty sad indeed.
Spells. Once you have spellstrike you can deliver OK damage just with Chill Touch or something running, and the likes of Shocking Grasp, Touch of Slime etc. do substantially more on a single hit.
There's no point making an eldritch knight and then complaining that it doesn't do good damage without spells.
Spells. Once you have spellstrike you can deliver OK damage just with Chill Touch or something running, and the likes of Shocking Grasp, Touch of Slime etc. do substantially more on a single hit.
There's no point making an eldritch knight and then complaining that it doesn't do good damage without spells.
That's true up to a point, though if an Eldritch Knight is struggling to pass a base of ~15 damage by level 9 (1d6+3 +6/7DEX, +?) it might be considered a bit questionable. A dex-based EK that's really built to do rapier damage by using things like Controlled Rage and Arcane Bond can be pushing regular damage in the high 20's by that point; so it depends where the bar is set.
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My questions at the beginning woudl be if I should go Wizard or Arcanist and if I should use a archetyp for them and for the fighter?
Well, if you're starting from level one, you should go for a pure Magus instead of eldritch knight. You'll be able to combine fighting and spellcasting right from the start, with better armor than the EK gets, and with a number of synergistic class features, and with a big action economy advantage.
Basically the only advantage EK has over Magus is that EK gets 7th to 9th level spells. That's a big advantage for sure, but it only applies at levels fifteen and up. If your campaign starts low, you probably shouldn't be building for that.
Basically the only advantage EK has over Magus is that EK gets 7th to 9th level spells. That's a big advantage for sure, but it only applies at levels fifteen and up.
An EK can have many unique advantages throughout their career, such as gaining features from both of their base classes, beginning to outpace the Magus in spellcasting power by 9/10, and not being tied into a specific fighting style. That being said, trying to ape a Blade Bound Magus with a Blade Adept is unlikely the best way to take advantage of those assets, so Magus might be a workable alternative if using Arcana to grab the relevant spells.
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An EK can have many unique advantages throughout their career, such as gaining features from both of their base classes,
It stops getting features as soon as it enters the prestige class, though.
beginning to outpace the Magus in spellcasting power by 9/10,
At level 10, both have the same amount of spells per day, and both have 4th level spells. I'm not seeing any outpacing there.
not being tied into a specific fighting style.
The Magus has archetypes for that.
Seriously, if your campaign starts at level twelve or fifteen, EK would be an interesting choice; but if you start at low level, Magus is going to be the better gish. And this is primarily because Spell Combat makes a huge difference in how the character plays.
An EK can have many unique advantages throughout their career, such as gaining features from both of their base classes,It stops getting features as soon as it enters the prestige class, though.
There are many, many class features that offer major benefits within a few levels. One level of Urban Barbarian with a little Extra Rage means an easy +4STR or +4DEX plus the ability to use Furious Weapon, which is a huge combat bonus without ever needing another level. A few levels of Blood Arcanist (Fey) grants the ability to toss a huge +4DC onto any Compulsion spell. A few levels of Strength Patron Witch or Spell Sage Wizard (with Preferred Spell) grants arcane Divine Favor for an easy +4/+4.
beginning to outpace the Magus in spellcasting power by 9/10,At level 10, both have the same amount of spells per day, and both have 4th level spells. I'm not seeing any outpacing there.
A Wizard/EK reaches level 4 spells by 9 instead of 10, and by 11 has permanently left Magus behind in spell levels. A level 10 Wizard/EK has 2+1school base level 4 spells, a Magus has 1. So generally speaking, EK is beginning to outpace Magus in spellcasting power by level 9/10, though the dynamic is somewhat different with Arcanist or Sorcerer.
not being tied into a specific fighting style.The Magus has archetypes for that.
I still don't recall seeing any way to use spell combat with a two-handed weapon, though I may have missed something.
Seriously, if your campaign starts at level twelve or fifteen, EK would be an interesting choice; but if you start at low level, Magus is going to be the better gish. And this is primarily because Spell Combat makes a huge difference in how the character plays.
The Magus is an easy to build gish-in-a-can that does what it does very well, but it's also somewhat of a fighter-with-fireworks one trick pony. In my experience, the idea that Magus is always a better class for a gish before very high levels isn't true at all. Personally I find it a pretty boring gish with diminishing returns by level, but that's certainly not to say that it isn't a very effective class and great for a certain type of character concept.
Oh, I see: You're only familiar with the "Shocking Grasp Spam" build of Magus. That explains a lot. The actual class is way broader than that.
I'd say my dislike ultimately comes from the fact that while you certainly can do more than the typical Shocking Grasp or Rime Frostbite thing, when a Magus isn't using Spell Combat/ Spellstrike to pad damage then the comparative benefits of EK seem even more pronounced to me. If building a gish that's actually going to try to be more of a real spellcaster, then I find it hard to give up all the tricks and hijinks available to full spellcasting classes. Though I will say that for any character that wasn't likely to reach at least level 9 by the end, I'd typically go Magus.