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According to the polymorph subschool in the magic section of the Player's Handbook:
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form.
Bolded for emphasis.
The universal monster rule for immunity states:
Immunity (Ex or Su) A creature with immunities takes no damage from listed sources. Immunities can also apply to afflictions, conditions, spells (based on school, level, or save type), and other effects. A creature that is immune does not suffer from these effects, or any secondary effects that are triggered due to an immune effect.
again, bolded for emphasis.
This shows that the efreeti should lose his immunity while shape changed, because it is a supernatural or extraordinary ability dependent on form.
According to the polymorph subschool in the magic section of the Player's Handbook:
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form.Bolded for emphasis.
The universal monster rule for immunity states:
Immunity (Ex or Su) A creature with immunities takes no damage from listed sources. Immunities can also apply to afflictions, conditions, spells (based on school, level, or save type), and other effects. A creature that is immune does not suffer from these effects, or any secondary effects that are triggered due to an immune effect.again, bolded for emphasis.
This shows that the efreeti should lose his immunity while shape changed, because it is a supernatural or extraordinary ability dependent on form.
How is it dependent on form? It comes from the fire subtype, which is not lost.
Quick question: Player's Handbook (a 3.5 product), or Core Rulebook (the PF book)?
Also, have you considered that in the light of keeping your subtype, and in light of the actual wording of the Change Shape mechanic? (You may have, and that's fair: but I'm pointing out why some may not agree with that take.)
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Here's the thing, though; the efreeti has the (fire) subtype, and polymorph effects do not change your type. The (fire) subtype grants immunity to fire, the efreeti is not immune to fire just as a special efreeti ability. It seems to me to be very much clear-cut that the efreeti will not lose the immunity (or the vulnerability to cold, for that matter.)earlier post:I think the efreeti loses the immunity while in troll form. Here's my case (some of this has been mentioned above):The efreeti's SQ in this case is as the spell giant form I. That's a polymorph spell, so this applies:
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original formimmunity entry in the UMRs indicates that immunity is either (Ex) or (Su)...
Immunity (Ex or Su)...so the efreeti loses it.
I suppose it could be debated whether the efreeti's immunity depends on its original form. I think it does, and admit that my case hinges on that.
I've read a lot of threads about polymorph effects and whether they change a creature's type, and there seems to be some disagreement on that count.
Polymorph: A polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature...
and point out that it doesn't explicitly reference "type". Arguments that they do reference this line in the same entry:
...When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type...
Whichever position you take, some problems arise:
For the "they don't" crowd, just one that I can think of off the top of my head is that the knowledge check to identify creatures becomes muddied. As an example, a party coming across a human druid in the form of a lesser-known animal might want to roll a Knowledge (nature) check to identify the animal. But, it should be Knowledge (local) to identify, based on the druid's humanoid type—and it ends up all metagamey to sort out. Another issue that arises from this position is which spells would or wouldn't work, such as hold animal or hold person (using the druid/animal as an example).
For the "they do" crowd, there are issues, too. For example, you'd become immune to mind-affecting effects when polymorphed via a spell like undead anatomy if it changed your type to undead, which I don't believe is intended (the polymorph spells tell you what changes and what doesn't).
Having said all of that, I lean toward (and accept) your position that polymorph spells don't change your type. But, I still think an efreeti's immunity to fire depends on its original form, even though as you say, the fire subtype grants it that immunity. Consider the analogy of a dwarf, or really any creature whose type (or subtype) lists darkvision. Do those types or subtypes "grant" that darkvision just like the fire subtype "grants" immunity to fire? I'd say yes. Yet, darkvision is one of the specific things mentioned in the rules about polymorph spells as something that depends on a creature's original form, and is lost while polymorphed. I cut the snippet short in my 1st post—here's the longer version:
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision)
Just because something is granted by a type or subtype, doesn't necessarily mean that it's not dependent on its form. I could see an ability being granted by a type, and still being lost while polymorphed. The magical beast type grants a unicorn its darkvision, and the unicorn doesn't have darkvision as a special unicorn ability, yet, it would seem to lose its darkvision while polymorphed.
Did I improve my argument here? I don't feel too strongly about it, but still lean toward, "The efreeti loses its immunity to fire while a troll via change shape (giant form)."
As a "hot" creature from the Plane of Fire (curls of smoke), it just feels like an efreeti's immunity is dependent on its form.
According to the polymorph subschool in the magic section of the Player's Handbook:
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form.Bolded for emphasis.
The universal monster rule for immunity states:
Immunity (Ex or Su) A creature with immunities takes no damage from listed sources. Immunities can also apply to afflictions, conditions, spells (based on school, level, or save type), and other effects. A creature that is immune does not suffer from these effects, or any secondary effects that are triggered due to an immune effect.again, bolded for emphasis.
This shows that the efreeti should lose his immunity while shape changed, because it is a supernatural or extraordinary ability dependent on form.
Type and Form are two completely separate things. Type (and subtype) define a creatures nature. Form describes the creatures physical structure.
Polymorph spells change physical structure, but not type: the creatures nature does not change, only its physical form. Contrast this with effects that change a creatures nature. (ex. element infused creature - air, granting the air subtype) The subtype granted is not dependent on form: an air infused bear can fly, an earth infused hawk can earthglide, a fire infused moss troll has regeneration that cannot be suppressed.
Defensive Abilities: If the base creature has an ability that is bypassed by the same element as the element infusing the base creature, such as regeneration, it loses that mode of bypass for the ability.
Physical form makes no difference to the application of the elemental subtype. Changing physical form (i.e. Polymorph does not change the creatures nature (type/subtype). Polymorphing a bear(animal, air) into a moss troll results in a moss troll(animal, air) that can fly and regenerate. It is not a plant and does not become mindless. Conversely, a moss troll(plant, fire) polymorphed into a bear(giant, shapechanger, fire) would retain its fire subtype. Fire subtype grants fire immunity. Unfortunately, the moss troll is has lost its regeneration, which was form dependent. It's also probably still afraid of fire, even though it is no longer vulnerable.
Weaknesses: An element-infused creature loses any weakness dependent on its chosen element.
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Does it have the fire subtype because it has immunity to fire and weakness to cold, or does it have fire immunity and weakness to cold because it has the fire subtype?
Irredisregardlessly, the full polymorph write up says the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form. I'd say the immunity does; you'd say it doesn't. Easy day.
Does it have the fire subtype because it has immunity to fire and weakness to cold, or does it have fire immunity and weakness to cold because it has the fire subtype?
By RAW, it is definitively the latter. This is a great question for philosophical pondering within-world, though!
Irredisregardlessly, the full polymorph write up says the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form. I'd say the immunity does; you'd say it doesn't. Easy day.
Yup.
Polymorphs have always been problematic. Paizo constrained the variability and power of the spells by listing what you get and keeping the caster's original type(a critical change). Thus polymorph just became some abilities you get (for human casters).
Regeneration is a powerful & awesome ability, thus contentious. Trolls have been around since day 1 and their regeneration is the stuff of legends.
Thus when you mix a non-human caster with abilities, polymorphs, and regeneration... you are going to get some GM decisions. No surprise really. The PF system does not cover every situation/combination.
Just follow the rules as best you can and make a reasonable decision when you have the 'monster' do this.
Even more yup. :)
The real problem is the spell itself.
ideally, the spell should make everyone who uses it adopt exactly the same form. Instead, it's acting more like an applied template, without neccessarily overrriding/replacing an existing template.
Thus, someone with the fire subtype can use Giant Form to turn into a frost giant with fire immunity and frost immunity. A human caster CANNOT do the same thing.
So, the spell should override any subtypes the caster has that provide physical properties, while leaving them intact for purposes of spell targets/FE. If you consider the properties of a subtype physical qualities, you can interpret the spell so that is exactly what happens.
Otherwise, you simply get more polymorph spell abuse. there's a reason game designers hate these spells!
==Aelryinth