| Kolyarut |
Well the obvious answer is yes - as seen here - but I mean with a standard weapon attack. As referenced in this other thread where I started confusing myself. So here are some more specific questions (Please note that all these attacks assume the enemy does not have DR. It is not the intent of these questions to determine how DR interacts with the following.):
A) I have a regular dagger, a STR mod of -3, and 1d6 sneak attack damage. If I roll 1 on the base damage and 1 on the sneak attack, do I deal 1 nonlethal damage total? Or does my weapon do 1 nonlethal damage and my sneak attack do 1 nonlethal damage for a total of 2 damage? Or is it 1 nonlethal damage and 1 lethal damage?
B) I have a +1 Flaming Dagger and a STR mod of -3. On an attack I roll 1 for the base damage and 6 for the fire damage. Do I do a total of 4 damage? Or does my weapon do 1 nonlethal damage and the fire does 6 damage, for a total of 7 damage?
C) In the same example as question B, is the fire damage considered nonlethal because the base weapon is dealing nonlethal damage?
D) How about when using a +1 Merciful Flaming Dagger? Does the Merciful quality change "all damage the weapon deals" into nonlethal damage? Does the Flaming bonus damage, like the Merciful Spell metamagic feat, do nonlethal fire damage? Or is bonus energy damage always lethal?
E) How about a +1 Flaming Sap with 1d6 sneak attack? Is the sneak attack damage nonlethal? Is the fire damage?
| SheepishEidolon |
It seems to be about weapon dice only:
If your attack succeeds, you deal damage. The type of weapon used determines the amount of damage you deal. Damage reduces a target’s current hit points. Minimum Damage: If penalties reduce the damage result to less than 1, a hit still deals 1 point of nonlethal damage
I'd assume you deal 1 point of nonlethal physical damage and 1d6 lethal fire damage.
Berti Blackfoot
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I remember a thread about Occult Adventures where James, i think, postulated that only physical blasts could deal non lethal. It's not for sure you can do non lethal with a physical blast, but the consensus was definitely you can't do non lethal energy damage.
But Merciful does change things. I'd say if someone spends the $$ on Merciful, or the metamagic feat, then I'd allow it, since it's magic. It seems RAW is not clear.
| Dave Justus |
Pretty much anything (there may be exceptions, but I can't think of them) that adds untyped damage to the attack is going to add to the weapon damage, and it will be the same 'type' of damage as the weapon damage and be added up before looking at anything like Damage reduction, or conversion to a point of nonlethal damage. So things like sneak attack, power attack, a paladin's smite, a rangers favored enemy and str bonuses all add together to increase the damage from the weapon, doing the same type (slashing, non-lethal, whatever) that the weapon did and being applied as a single lump sum to the target.
Energy damage, like from a flaming sword, is a different 'type' and doesn't add to the weapon damage, it remains it's own thing. It doesn't add to penetrating DR (although it isn't subject to DR either) and it will have to overcome any resistances immensities on its own. It doesn't take on any of the properties of the weapon or attack used to deal it, including non-lethal.
And RAW on merciful is 100% clear. A merciful spells deals nonlethal damage. Without merciful though, energy damage won't be non-lethal (unless something else specifically makes it so) so you can't, for example, take a penalty on your to hit roll with a scorching ray to make it non-lethal.
| blahpers |
Sneak attack et al. adds to the weapon's damage, so sum it all together before figuring out things like "not enough to do lethal" and the like. If your weapon attack is non-lethal, so is the sneak attack.
Rules aren't really definitive on things like the flaming enhancement, but I'd rule those non-lethal as well.
Note that there are regular weapons that do energy gamage (battle poi, e.g.) and nothing stops you from using them in a non-lethal manner. So there's certainly precedent for non-lethal energy damage apart from Merciful Spell and the merciful weapon property.
| Cevah |
Frostbite does nonlethal damage.
Fury of the Sun also.
Unshakeable Chill also.
There are only a few spells that do nonlethal damage directly.
For the OP:
A) Damage is (1d4 [dagger] -3 [Str] + 1d6 [Sneak]). Rolling 1 & 1, generates a total of -1 damage. This invokes the 1 nonlethal minimum rule on attacks. Result: 1 nonlethal.
B) Damage is (1d4 [dagger] -3 [Str] + 1 [plus] + 1d6 [fire]). I don't have rules to cite, but I think this becomes 1 nonlethal and 6 fire.
C) I don't think so.
D) I don't think so, since the fire damage is bonus damage to the weapon and not multiplied on a crit the way base weapon damage is. I think bonus energy damage is always lethal unless specifically called out.
E) While sneak attack is also bonus and not multiplied, you might think it does lethal also. However, it calls out that it adds the same type of damage as the weapon, thus it is nonlethal if the weapon does nonlethal. For this item, I would say the fire is lethal and the sneak attack is nonlethal like the sap.
/cevah