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Hello dear friends! I can finally find a free moment from my studies, and brush up my shabby English xD
This time I don't intend to bring up ponies, ambiguous dragons and communist societies. Especially ponies (seriously, I have to stop watching that show...)
Nope, tonight I want to discuss two types of outsiders presented in Bestiary 3: asuras and rakshasas.
Asuras are really beautiful, both for the lore's concept that for individual monsters presented; and the concept of rakshasas presented in the same Bestiary has intrigued me a lot. There would be many opportunities for both these beings in campaigns and adventures.
But it seems strange that these two races don't cooperate with each other.
Let me explain my thoughts:
* Asura= LE, outsider (extraplanar), “divine” accidents/misdeeds. Their goal is to provoke a clear break between mortals and deities with manipulations and deceptions, bringing the first towards corruption and blasphemy and, finally, destroying the whole divine creation
* Rakshasa= LE, outsider (native), “earthbound evil”, reincarnated evil sinful humanoids in fiendish and powerful creatures. As reported by the manual:
While rakshasas are forced to admit that the gods have powers greater than their own, most rakshasas scoff at the concept of divinity as a whole. The gods are among the most powerful beings in existence, to be sure, but too many examples of powerful, ambitious, or merely lucky mortals attaining divinity exist for rakshasas to pay religious homage to such creatures. Rakshasas see their own transitions from mortals to otherworldly beings as marks of their own fathomless potential and their initial steps on the path to godhood. Thus, as a race, rakshasas deny the worship of deities, although they welcome alliances with the servants of such peerlessly potent beings when it serves their purposes.
Both are LE, are the results of sin and the sins committed by others, denigrate deities performing acts of blasphemy against religious institutions and the faithful, they thrive by corrupting society ... but then why there is no reference that these creatures are allied? As you may regulate their relationship? They may cooperate for their own purposes, or perhaps the asuras are "arrogant" towards Rakshasa?
What do you think?| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Alliances need trust. While LE creatures are more trustworthy than NE or even CE ones, you still risk being double-crossed by them. Rakshasas can't trust raskhasas on the long run, and I guess it doesn't become better with another type of LE outsiders being involved.
So some rakshasas and asuras could work together efficiently, for a common goal - for a limited amount of time. A general alliance between both people doesn't make sense, in my opinion.
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As a GM it's up to you. Alliances however aren't guaranteed to last forever... Ask Stalin about Hitler sometime.
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Just gonna echo the other posts. They could certainly work together towards a common goal, but their generally nasty nature would make any form of long-term cooperation difficult. Essentially, any alliance would only last as long as they see more benefit to honoring it than they do to backstabbing their current allies.
The Nazi-Soviet Pact is a pretty good example of what happens when two evil powers align with each other. As beneficial as the cooperation is, both sides know from the start that the alliance is only going to last until they're ready to backstab their current partners. Even while working together, they're both constantly maneuvering to split up the spoils in a way that leaves them in a good position when the inevitable betrayal happens.
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Alliances need trust.
Of course they don't. Alliances need mutual advantage, and trust be d---ned, in this case, perhaps literally. History and fiction are both littered with examples of alliances between untrustworthy evil powers for a temporary advantage, with both parties knowing that as soon as there is a greater advantage, there will be a betrayal.
However, both sides expect (going in) that they'll be able to turn events more to their advantage, and that they'll get an immediate benefit simply by not fighting each other (and being able to turn their joint attention to more immediate enemies).
The Nazi-Soviet pact has already been mentioned in this thread, so I'll give a more personal scale example. Two criminals wish to escape from prison, and one manages to find a small two-man glider in poor condition in a storage room somewhere. He can repair it, but not fly it. Another prisoner can fly such a glider, but can't repair it.
A temporary alliance between the two prisoners -- even if they're on opposite sides of a gang war -- will get both of them out of the prison and they can go their separate ways. And, yes, while I'm conflating several disparate real-world escape scenarios, it's actually realistic. (For the glider, look to Colditz Castle in WWII.)
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Asuras and Rakshasas strike me as being okay with each, but Rakshasa's are far to self-involved to care about the crusade of the Asuras. I could see weaker Rakshasas working for Asuras, or short term mutual interest alliances between two groups of equally powerful Asuras, but not really any long term collaboration.
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Asuras are probably quite happy working with Rakshasas to accomplish their goals. There's less taint of the divine about them than most other outsiders or mortal beings, and their abilities in mind-reading and shapeshifting make them excellent at accomplishing the Asuras' goals.
On the part of Rakshasas, their caste system has a specific allowance for other powerful fiends, allowing them to be categorized in a rank outside of "slave" or "food" and actually command lesser Rakshasas. Rakshasas desire power, control, and material comfort. Asuras are largely ascetic in nature, and readily willing to part with wealth, servants, and slaves as payment for accomplishing some greater goal.
One catch to the relationship is that while the goals of the two don't necessarily conflict, they also aren't guaranteed to align. Asuras seek to corrupt and destroy clerical power structures. If that requires as much or more work than getting a cushy position of control in one, a Rakshasa might prefer to have that power structure left alone. (This is probably increasingly true the closer a church is to LE.) Since good weapons are one of the few things that can hurt Rakshasas, though, the two are more likely to see eye-to-eye when it comes to the clergy of good-aligned deities.
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Asura: I want to destroy all of creation.
Rakshasa: That is where I keep all my stuff.
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In Curse of the Crimson Throne, the Arjuna's employ an asura torturer in the Vivified Labyrinth, as I recall.
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Asura: I want to destroy all of creation.
Rakshasa: That is where I keep all my stuff.
It's a very long-term goal. The shorter-term goals aren't as much of a problem.
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Alliances need trust. While LE creatures are more trustworthy than NE or even CE ones, you still risk being double-crossed by them. Rakshasas can't trust raskhasas on the long run, and I guess it doesn't become better with another type of LE outsiders being involved.
So some rakshasas and asuras could work together efficiently, for a common goal - for a limited amount of time. A general alliance between both people doesn't make sense, in my opinion.
you can always trust devils, they will never lie to you and they are big on contracts
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you can always trust devils, they will never lie to you and they are big on contractsAlliances need trust. While LE creatures are more trustworthy than NE or even CE ones, you still risk being double-crossed by them. Rakshasas can't trust raskhasas on the long run, and I guess it doesn't become better with another type of LE outsiders being involved.
So some rakshasas and asuras could work together efficiently, for a common goal - for a limited amount of time. A general alliance between both people doesn't make sense, in my opinion.
They are the type to take advantage of fine print in a contract or word things to be ambigious, and use whatever interpretation is most likely in their favor. The 9 hells is a very political place, and backstabbing does occur.
PS: They will lie to you. They just won't blatantly dishonor a contract that is ironclad. Baalzebul actually has lies as one of his portfolios.
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Alliances need trust.Of course they don't. Alliances need mutual advantage, and trust be d---ned, in this case, perhaps literally.
Well, 'trust' can have a broader sense, I suppose.
As in "I trust that I can backstab you at any moment, stealing all that you own for my own gain". Basically, trust can have lower requirements when betrayal, or at least a hasty get away, seems like a viable plan B.
So the trust can be the confidence that the other side would be unable to get at everything you invested (your self, manpower, wealth, intel, good position, etc.) before you can withdraw and get into a nice defensible position both physically and politically. Or at least the belief that they can do all this. Y'know...confidence and over confidence.
Rakshasas seem like they would readily get into that kind of alliance, what with their mind reading and such, allowing them to THINK they can read the other side like a book.
Trust is about whether you have reasonable assurance that you can predict the other side's actions. This is usually about 'trusting' a partner not to betray your interest... but you can certainly do it in other ways. You can 'trust' a violent, hot headed idiot to do something rash. So you simply need to keep your relationship with such a person restricted to times when you need such an idiot. To find a fall guy that walks into a political trap. You just need to arrange things so that the parties' personalities and interest align in the right way to give you benefit.
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Alliances need trust.Of course they don't. Alliances need mutual advantage, and trust be d---ned, in this case, perhaps literally.Well, 'trust' can have a broader sense, I suppose.
As in "I trust that I can backstab you at any moment, stealing all that you own for my own gain". Basically, trust can have lower requirements when betrayal, or at least a hasty get away, seems like a viable plan B.
So the trust can be the confidence that the other side would be unable to get at everything you invested (your self, manpower, wealth, intel, good position, etc.) before you can withdraw and get into a nice defensible position both physically and politically. Or at least the belief that they can do all this. Y'know...confidence and over confidence.
Rakshasas seem like they would readily get into that kind of alliance, what with their mind reading and such, allowing them to THINK they can read the other side like a book.
Trust is about whether you have reasonable assurance that you can predict the other side's actions. This is usually about 'trusting' a partner not to betray your interest... but you can certainly do it in other ways. You can 'trust' a violent, hot headed idiot to do something rash. So you simply need to keep your relationship with such a person restricted to times when you need such an idiot. To find a fall guy that walks into a political trap. You just need to arrange things so that the parties' personalities and interest align in the right way to give you benefit.
This does raise an interesting point as far the importance of Law vs. Chaos in alliances. Lawful powers, regardless of where they sit on the moral spectrum, are generally going to be a lot more reliable, predictable, and rational than Chaotic ones. Which probably makes them better allies, from a certain perspective.
Sure, those lawful evil guys will break the alliance if they think they gain more by betraying you, but it's not too hard to look at facts and come up with a reasonable idea of the risks and rewards. As long as LE gains more by being loyal than they would by backstabbing, they'll stick with the alliance.
Chaotics, by definition, are a lot less predictable. I could easily see a Chaotic Good power breaking an alliance despite the fact that doing so is not in their rational best interest, just because an envoy offended their leadership or some similar faux pas.
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This does raise an interesting point as far the importance of Law vs. Chaos in alliances. Lawful powers, regardless of where they sit on the moral spectrum, are generally going to be a lot more reliable, predictable, and rational than Chaotic ones. Which probably makes them better allies, from a certain perspective.
Sure, those lawful evil guys will break the alliance if they think they gain more by betraying you, but it's not too hard to look at facts and come up with a reasonable idea of the risks and rewards. As long as LE gains more by being loyal than they would by backstabbing, they'll stick with the alliance.
Chaotics, by definition, are a lot less predictable. I could easily see a Chaotic Good power breaking an alliance despite the fact that doing so is not in their rational best interest, just because an envoy offended their leadership or some similar faux pas.
Thus, why entire nations advocate dealing with devils, while only mad men go for demons since betrayals come 'because it was funny' even if it would very likely lead to the demon's destruction.
Not that this is all set in stone, of course. Some LE are VERY aggressive in having hidden assets and finding the chance to backstab, while some CE would stick with the script for a long time since they view it like a game and just ending it would take all the sport away.
I would say it all depends on whether you are looking long term or short term. In the short term...devils always have a price and selling your soul might not be worth it if it is just a simple assassination or something. Meanwhile, you might get a demon to do that kill for free cause the target looks nice and juicy.
Simply put, knowing the demon's personality/preferences (ie- 'trusting' it to follow its tastes adn vices), and giving it an enjoyable task can keep it distracted long enough that you can complete the deal and send it back. CE is dominated by whims...but that means that knowing those whims might get it to act outside of its best interest when you provide suitable bait. But yes... in the long term, it is better to go with LE. It will stick to its principles- that means you can't trick it to lower the price, but it also means it won't lower the services later on.
So, in summation-
CE- quick, dirty muscle to handle an immediate task
LE- long term partner