In particular, can an awakened horse communicate with normal horses (presumably as if using speak with animals)?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would say yes, but only to the limits that real world animals can communicate with each other. The communication is probably closer to the Handle Animal commands with one or two additional commands (eg 'want to hump')
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Long Answer: Normal horses (and animals in general) usually don't have an actual language to communicate with. You can argue that animals have a "language" even if it's very rudimentary communication through pheromones such as ants, but I would hardly consider that a conversation and is more like acting on natural instinct.
Unless someone is under the effects of Speak with Animals there's:
1. No shared language to communicate with (in fact, there is no language at all).
2. The animal is too stupid to have a real conversation with you.
The first point seems to be circumnavigated by the fact that the horse used to be a horse and should know how to communicate with horses, but it falls into the pit of "there is no language to communicate in". The spell says you make them sentient and gives them some bonuses. That means you would treat them just like a normal person walking around but with the nifty abilities written in their bestiary entry. Can a normal sentient person communicate with an animal to that extent? Nope, so the awakened animal can't either.
Short Answer: It doesn't say anywhere in the Awakened Animal spell that it allows awakened animals to communicate with their unawakened brethren, so they can't.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The only ability that I know for sure does this, is the familiar's ability of:
Speak with Animals of Its Kind (Ex): If the master is 7th level or higher, a familiar can communicate with animals of approximately the same kind as itself (including dire varieties): bats with bats, cats with felines, hawks and owls and ravens with birds, lizards and snakes with reptiles, monkeys with other simians, rats with rodents, toads with amphibians, and weasels with ermines and minks. Such communication is limited by the Intelligence of the conversing creatures.
Familiars start at int 6, and continue to increase. Int 3 is above normal animal intelligence.
IMO, an awakened creature can communicate no better with a non-awakened animal of it's kind than a human could with most apes. Which is to say no, it cannot "talk" to it.
I realize awaken does not grant any ability to speak with anything, but neither does it remove any existing ability a normal animal may have. However, the point that familiars need a special ability to talk to their own kind convinces me that their own kind can't talk amongst themselves, either. Darn.
Thanks, all.
|
|
I realize awaken does not grant any ability to speak with anything, but neither does it remove any existing ability a normal animal may have. However, the point that familiars need a special ability to talk to their own kind convinces me that their own kind can't talk amongst themselves, either. Darn.
Thanks, all.
You're absolutely right that it doesn't take anything away and I fully agree that the awakened animal would be able to convey some very limited things. However, you put in the part saying "as if using Speak With Animals" in your original post. As you can see from the spell description, Speak With Animals is far and above what any two animals would be able to communicate with each other. Keep in mind that even among the same species of non-awakened animal (in your specific case, a horse) the only communication that happens basically boils down to "I'm hurt", "There's a predator", "Let's mate" and "Oh look, food!". Anything much past those things is just completely lost to the non-awakened horse no matter what the intelligence of the awakened horse would be.
Keep in mind that even among the same species of non-awakened animal (in your specific case, a horse) the only communication that happens basically boils down to "I'm hurt", "There's a predator", "Let's mate" and "Oh look, food!". Anything much past those things is just completely lost to the non-awakened horse no matter what the intelligence of the awakened horse would be.That's a gross oversimplification. Many animals and even insects have complex communication or rather can communicated very complex and specific information. There's even evidence that says bacteria colonies use "quorum sensing" to communicate. Scientist don't know the full extent of what animals can communicate with each other. No one has translated whale songs or dolphin echos.
What is probably true is that animal language is more robust for communicating things that affect their survival and wholly inadequate in areas that are unrelated. For example, wolves probably don't have any vocabulary for describing books or kitchen utensils. But they might be very good at communicating tactical positioning and singling out potential targets amongst themselves. It's probably a safe assumption that solitary animals probably have very limited "language" when compared with animals that live in groups...but we really don't know. We also know that animals can communicate or rather understand the signals of other animals. Many forms of prey are adept at understanding the warning signals of other animals.
That is all genuinely interesting. However, none of that means anything in the game. In the game the fact that familiars need a special ability to communicate with others of their kind means that animals generally are unable to do so for game purposes.
In the game the fact that familiars need a special ability to communicate with others of their kind means that animals generally are unable to do so for game purposes.That is not in the rules, nor is it implied by the rules. A familiar starts out as a normal animal but then immediate gets a 6 INT and is now classified as a "Familiar" and any effects treat it as a magical beast. What is true for a Familiar has zero impact on what is true for a normal animal. At best you can argue that it might apply to an awakened animal.
It is entirely consisted with the game rules to have the leader of a wolf pack communicate with the other wolves on who to attack or whether the pack should retreat, or hide, etc.
Their intelligence doesn't matter. Type does though and you are right. They are magical beasts. Also I notice that the ability doesn't just allow them to speak with other animals of their exact type but with animals that are similar. So a fox familiar would be able to speak with wolves, coyotes, dogs, etc... So now I am on the fence about this one.
And as you point out, this statement,
a familiar can communicate with animals of approximately the same kind as itself..Reads as if this is granting communication to animals that a specifically not of its exact type (because we should presume that this ability already exists.)
I considered making that argument, but the CRB specifies that bat familiars learn to talk to bats only, so it's not always an expansion beyond one's species. Errr, one's order (Chiroptera in this case).
I suppose one could argue that bats normally can talk to bats but only of their own exact species, and now they can talk to any darn bat they please, but I find that weak.
And as you point out, this statement,
a familiar can communicate with animals of approximately the same kind as itself..Reads as if this is granting communication to animals that a specifically not of its exact type (because we should presume that this ability already exists.)
I considered making that argument, but the CRB specifies that bat familiars learn to talk to bats only, so it's not always an expansion beyond one's species. Errr, one's order (Chiroptera in this case).
I suppose one could argue that bats normally can talk to bats but only of their own exact species, and now they can talk to any darn bat they please, but I find that weak.
At the time that was printed bats and dire bats, which the text specifically states all of them can speak to dire versions of their kind, were the only type of winged rodents. If in the future more types of winged rodents were added then the bat familiar would be able to speak to them as well.
I'm with N N 959 there are a couple of different ways that an individual GM could reasonably adjudicate this one.
And as you point out, this statement,
a familiar can communicate with animals of approximately the same kind as itself..Reads as if this is granting communication to animals that a specifically not of its exact type (because we should presume that this ability already exists.)
I considered making that argument, but the CRB specifies that bat familiars learn to talk to bats only, so it's not always an expansion beyond one's species. Errr, one's order (Chiroptera in this case).
I suppose one could argue that bats normally can talk to bats but only of their own exact species, and now they can talk to any darn bat they please, but I find that weak.
At the time that was printed bats and dire bats, which the text specifically states all of them can speak to dire versions of their kind, were the only type of winged rodents. If in the future more types of winged rodents were added then the bat familiar would be able to speak to them as well.
I'm with N N 959 there are a couple of different ways that an individual GM could reasonably adjudicate this one.
It's not important, but FYI bats are not rodents. Thanks for pointing out that dire bats are included, I'd missed that.
Most communication between hive animals such as bees is not so much conversation but the same kind demonstrated by a set of autonomous mini-drones which can be programmed for given tasks and each will repsond depending on what the others are doing.
But such communication does not language make.
I probably should have worded the thread title as "can animals communicate with their own kind," since "speak" "talk" implies language and I don't actually care whether there's language involved, as long as they can exchange information.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It occurs to me after discussing this topic, I wonder if GMs would allow an animal companion to communicate with other animals of its type if instructed to do so by someone using Speak with animals?
I've never tried it with my Rangers because I've never had the opportunity.
After this discussion I think I would allow very limited communication. For example, your bear companion could tell you that the bear confronting you is a mother warning you to stay away from her cubs but could not question said mother bear to find out if any "two-legs" had passed by recently.
Very interesting arguments on both sides on this one.
My conclusion is there simply isn't a ruling on this in game terms and therefore the extent to which an awakened animal could 'talk' (or communicate) with a member of its own kind is up to GM fiat.
It should certainly be no more limited than what the Familiar gets with other animals "approximately" of the same kind. Clearly Paizo intends for this Familiar ability to have some substantive impact on the game. So a Ranger's companion communicating with animals of its kind should have just as much bandwidth, if not more than the Familiar with animals only related to its kind.After this discussion I think I would allow very limited communication. For example, your bear companion could tell you that the bear confronting you is a mother warning you to stay away from her cubs but could not question said mother bear to find out if any "two-legs" had passed by recently.It occurs to me after discussing this topic, I wonder if GMs would allow an animal companion to communicate with other animals of its type if instructed to do so by someone using Speak with animals?
I've never tried it with my Rangers because I've never had the opportunity.
I couldn't disagree more. Of course it should be more limited than what a familiar gets because the ability for the familiar is explicitly called out as a benefit. Also - I agree, Paizo intends for this Familiar ability to have some substantive impact on the game which is why it is a greater ability than other companion animals who do not have that ability. Familiars explicitly have this ability and animal companions do not.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Dogs wag their tails when they are happy. An awakened dog would still wag it's tail when happy and other dogs would understand that.
It should certainly be no more limited than what the Familiar gets with other animals "approximately" of the same kind. Clearly Paizo intends for this Familiar ability to have some substantive impact on the game. So a Ranger's companion communicating with animals of its kind should have just as much bandwidth, if not more than the Familiar with animals only related to its kind.After this discussion I think I would allow very limited communication. For example, your bear companion could tell you that the bear confronting you is a mother warning you to stay away from her cubs but could not question said mother bear to find out if any "two-legs" had passed by recently.It occurs to me after discussing this topic, I wonder if GMs would allow an animal companion to communicate with other animals of its type if instructed to do so by someone using Speak with animals?
I've never tried it with my Rangers because I've never had the opportunity.
Why should an animal companion get for free what it takes a familiar until level 7 to receive? Why should it get that ability at all since Paizo deliberately left that ability out for animal companions? Yes the familiar ability does have an impact but animal companions never get that ability. Allowing them to have any ability to communicate is beyond RAW but it seems to me giving them an ability on par with familiars would be wildly generous and unfair to those with familiars.
Also they don't get an upgrade to intelligence and they aren't magical beasts. They are still just animals.
I've accepted that it is reasonable for normal animals to be able to have some rudimentary communication but can't see any reason that communication should be anywhere nearly as useful as what a level 7 familiar can accomplish.
An oft overlooked section of wildshape
A druid loses her ability to speak while in animal form because she is limited to the sounds that a normal, untrained animal can make, but she can communicate normally with other animals of the same general grouping as her new form. (The normal sound a wild parrot makes is a squawk, so changing to this form does not permit speech.)
So if a druid in the shape of a horse can speak horse, a horse thats been a horse all their life and then gotten a brain should be able to pull it off.
An oft overlooked section of wildshape
A druid loses her ability to speak while in animal form because she is limited to the sounds that a normal, untrained animal can make, but she can communicate normally with other animals of the same general grouping as her new form. (The normal sound a wild parrot makes is a squawk, so changing to this form does not permit speech.)
So if a druid in the shape of a horse can speak horse, a horse thats been a horse all their life and then gotten a brain should be able to pull it off.
You are right! Had totally forgotten about that. Good catch.
I would say very simple communication is possible.
Basically yes/no questions, and maybe how many ______ were seen up to a certain number.
I don't think animals track time like we do so saying something happened 3 hours ago would not happen if I were the GM.