Can we have a determination on "No looking like a Drow?"

[Exultation]

A note before I begin: my issue is only tangentially related to the Blood of Shadows thread, which is why I'm not posting this there.

Perhaps it's something about the season. A year ago we had a newcomer to the board asking if it was legal to play a drow-descended elf or half-elf. He was told this wasn't legal, and someone suggested that he just play a dark-skinned half-elf and imagine it to be half-drow inside his own head. And that's where the conversation took a turn.

Several posters jumped in to argue that elves were only ever lily-white, and that playing an elf or half-elf with darker skin was illegal. Others pointed out that per the ARG elves have the same variations in color as humans, that Golarion has an existing example of darker-skinned elves in the Ekujae, and that half-elves could well take after a human parent in any case. Unfortunately, many in the former group were adamant that playing an elf with skin darker than snow was reskinning a drow, and thus grounds for dismissal from the table.

Mike Brock eventually closed the topic with the statement "You can't reskin a character to look like a drow," and said that this would be documented where necessary.

The problem is, it's been a year (and a day), and no documentation or guidelines have been forthcoming. And because the most notable aspect of drow appearance is dark skin (not actually certain if it's black, blue, or purple in Golarion), that essentially leaves the rule as "A GM may, at his own discretion, decide that a character's skin is too dark to be legal for play."

Which is, quite frankly, a horrible rule.

Now it's possible that Mike just didn't get to the issue before he left, which is what I'm hoping. In which case, hopefully we can get the issue resolved now. Could someone in campaign leadership give us some guidelines on what exactly "no looking like a drow" means?

Ideally, guidelines that don't allow a GM to kick out a player for saying "My character is Black."

[Shisumo]

Golarion drow are deep indigo, which is not a human color variation. Playing a character with brown or black skin is not the same as reskinning to look like a drow.

[BartonOliver]

Just for reference -
Drow - Coal Black to Dusky Purple (not like a skin tone occurring in Humans or other Elves)
Ekujae - More akin to the "black" of African descent. (same skin tones seen throughout the Mwangi Expanse)

Half-Drow and reskinning to look drow still not allowed. The board clarification you mention is valid, though I can see the need for a bit tighter language. Ekujae Elves (see also Wild-born) perfectly legal.

[captain yesterday]

To be fair, Pathfinder Society allows people to own slaves (and people are just fine with it even), so...

[Andrew Christian]

Exultation wrote:

Shisumo wrote:

Playing a character with brown or black skin is not the same as reskinning to look like a drow.

Honestly, seeing this exact sentence posted officially by campaign leadership would pretty much entirely assuage my concerns on the subject.

While it would be nice to have exceptionally tight language everywhere, I don't believe this needs it.

The Ekujae elven ethnicity is completely legal. As long as someone isn't using Ekujae to specifically look like a drow we are fine. The assumption is that anyone can tell the difference.

[Muser]

Just walk away.

[Rei]

This whole "looks like a drow but isn't" thing is actually kind of fascinating on an in-game vs. out-of-game level.

Let's say Player X shows up at a game with an elf or half-elf character. When asked to describe the character, they grin and describe them as very dark-skinned with very light or even white hair.

In-world, the other characters, unless elves or half-elves familiar with the Shin'Rakorath/Lantern Bearers (or just Int-casters or Loracles with Knowledges out the wazoo), would have no reason to react to this in any way. Drow are a forcibly kept secret and so on.

Out-of-game, the players are probably sighing at what is clearly a drow pastiche and meant to be one. Yet their response should not be reflected in the responses of their characters. Or the NPCs the party meets. Or, in fact, anyone in the whole game world other than those privy to the secret of the existence of the drow.

So... what exactly is the lure of looking like a drow? Getting players to roll their eyes?

[Duiker]

Rei wrote:

This whole "looks like a drow but isn't" thing is actually kind of fascinating on an in-game vs. out-of-game level.

Let's say Player X shows up at a game with an elf or half-elf character. When asked to describe the character, they grin and describe them as very dark-skinned with very light or even white hair.

In-world, the other characters, unless elves or half-elves familiar with the Shin'Rakorath/Lantern Bearers (or just Int-casters or Loracles with Knowledges out the wazoo), would have no reason to react to this in any way. Drow are a forcibly kept secret and so on.

Out-of-game, the players are probably sighing at what is clearly a drow pastiche and meant to be one. Yet their response should not be reflected in the responses of their characters. Or the NPCs the party meets. Or, in fact, anyone in the whole game world other than those privy to the secret of the existence of the drow.

So... what exactly is the lure of looking like a drow? Getting players to roll their eyes?

I thought it was for the free pair of scimitars.

[Nefreet]

We need not make this an OOC issue. There's a perfectly good IC reason why drow lookalikes aren't found: the in-game Pathfinder Society simply wouldn't hire them.

Their unnatural coloration (the aforementioned purple-to-black spectrum, plus white hair) is distinct from the cream-to-dark-brown spectrum of surface elves.

This isn't OOC racism, this is IC specism.

[Orfamay Quest]

Rei wrote:

So... what exactly is the lure of looking like a drow? Getting players to roll their eyes?

Non-conformity and trope subversion. Anyone with even a modicum of literary theory knows that "tropes are bad, mm'kay?" and that all the cool people are failing to conform to the tropes. It helps, of course, that what literary theorists call "tropes" are called "stereotypes" in the real world, and stereotyped thinking is, in fact, often actively harmful, so you shouldn't do it (mm'kay?)

So you need to play a drow because traditional elves have been done to death. And you need to play a morally questionable if not evil character because heroes are so dated. And you need to be cynical and questioning because otherwise how will you show that you're aware of the limitations of the tropes?

And then you can be a bonafide nonconformist like everybody else. (See also here.)

[andreww]

Nefreet wrote:

We need not make this an OOC issue. There's a perfectly good IC reason why drow lookalikes aren't found: the in-game Pathfinder Society simply wouldn't hire them.

And yet they will cheerfully hire blood spattered clerics of Lamashtu, Rovagug or Zon Kuthon. Let's not pretend that the Society is terribly picky about who it employs.

[Nefreet]

andreww wrote:

Nefreet wrote:

We need not make this an OOC issue. There's a perfectly good IC reason why drow lookalikes aren't found: the in-game Pathfinder Society simply wouldn't hire them.

And yet they will cheerfully hire blood spattered clerics of Lamashtu, Rovagug or Zon Kuthon. Let's not pretend that the Society is terribly picky about who it employs.

There's a highly publicized vetting procedure, I've heard. If the character later becomes a bad apple, then they get kicked out.

That's different from allowing bad apples in the first place.

[godsDMit]

andreww wrote:

Nefreet wrote:

We need not make this an OOC issue. There's a perfectly good IC reason why drow lookalikes aren't found: the in-game Pathfinder Society simply wouldn't hire them.

And yet they will cheerfully hire blood spattered clerics of Lamashtu, Rovagug or Zon Kuthon. Let's not pretend that the Society is terribly picky about who it employs.

It is pretty picky, really. A full third of the alignment chart is completely unavailable (for a player).

I get the point you are trying to make, but the reasoning given is there is no good in the drow of Golarion at all. No flukes like Drizzt. they are 100% evil to the core. And even if they did make a fluke character, the fluke is a 1 in a million chance of being born, so it isn't your (overall your, not your andreww) character.

[DubiousYak]

I heard that before the rule against the Drow was instituted there was an absurd number of Drow in PFS? Is that true?

[Orfamay Quest]

DubiousYak wrote:

I heard that before the rule against the Drow was instituted there was an absurd number of Drow in PFS? Is that true?

I don't know the statistics, but it's true that drow have a lot going for (or against, depending upon your point of view).

They're overpowered as a base race (14 race points according to the admittedly flawed race generator), with some very nice features -- 120 foot darkvision, spell resistance, and a nice array of spell-like abilities (these in particular made them very good for mystic theurge builds).

They've also got a very iconic character to play if you don't mind being a D'rrr'zz't't clone, which makes them more accessible perhaps than a "Suli" (wasn't he the helmsman under Captain Kirk?)

And, as I mentioned, they're cool and trope-subverting. Either you play the evil drow trope straight (and you get props for being a villain, which you confuse in your own mind with an antihero and thereby subverting the fantasy hero tropes), or you subvert the evil drow trope itself.

[BigNorseWolf]

Mike Brock wrote:

You can't reskin a character to look like a drow. You also can not play a character who is descended from a Drow, including a half-elf with drow ancestry. Since this is, unfortunately, not clear, I will make sure it is documented where it needs to be.

Drow are evil. Drow are despised and hated. Drow are essentially kill on sight because they are considered a monster for all intent and purposes. The Society would likely not accept a character that looks like a Drow due to the problems that come with it.

If you want to use a disguise kit or a hat of disguise or whatever to try to look like a Drow, then it is an option. However, the reactions of NPCs will likely cause grief for the other characters and the GM is well within his or her rights to have NPCs act accordingly if they fail their perception and think the character is a Drow.

- Linky

[BartonOliver]

Orfamay Quest wrote:

They're overpowered as a base race (14 race points according to the admittedly flawed race generator), with some very nice features -- 120 foot darkvision, spell resistance, and a nice array of spell-like abilities (these in particular made them very good for mystic theurge builds).

Not to mention some really good alternate racial traits, a couple of race specific archetypes that are pretty good, and feats that let you improve on almost any of the racials, especially the SLAs.

Drow have a pretty legit shot at making the podium for most powerful base race in game (IMO). They'd have to duke it out for 3rd with a couple other races as I personally think Munavari and Azlanti would have 1/2 locked up)

Edit: Not to mention Drow Noble which just gets so ludicrous, as to have momentarily slipped my mind. (41 RP)

[FLite]

DubiousYak wrote:

I heard that before the rule against the Drow was instituted there was an absurd number of Drow in PFS? Is that true?

My understanding is that Drow have never been legal in PFS.

[BigNorseWolf]

andreww wrote:

Nefreet wrote:

We need not make this an OOC issue. There's a perfectly good IC reason why drow lookalikes aren't found: the in-game Pathfinder Society simply wouldn't hire them.

And yet they will cheerfully hire blood spattered clerics of Lamashtu, Rovagug or Zon Kuthon. Let's not pretend that the Society is terribly picky about who it employs.

That should tell you how bad drow are....

[RainyDayNinja]

andreww wrote:

Nefreet wrote:

We need not make this an OOC issue. There's a perfectly good IC reason why drow lookalikes aren't found: the in-game Pathfinder Society simply wouldn't hire them.

And yet they will cheerfully hire blood spattered clerics of Lamashtu, Rovagug or Zon Kuthon. Let's not pretend that the Society is terribly picky about who it employs.

And yet my cheerful candy-man cleric of Folca isn't allowed! What kind of organization would be so blatantly anti-candy?

[MadScientistWorking]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

andreww wrote:

Nefreet wrote:

We need not make this an OOC issue. There's a perfectly good IC reason why drow lookalikes aren't found: the in-game Pathfinder Society simply wouldn't hire them.

And yet they will cheerfully hire blood spattered clerics of Lamashtu, Rovagug or Zon Kuthon. Let's not pretend that the Society is terribly picky about who it employs.

That should tell you how bad drow are....

No it just looks like horrendously bad writing that's all.

EDIT:
Hilariously, I can think of worst elves to emulate than drow.

[Rei]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

captain yesterday wrote:

And please, treat us like people, on account of us being people and all. :-)

Speak for yourself!

I, for one, am a meat popsicle.

[captain yesterday]

Technically, I guess I'm a (non evil) crocodile God of fertility, natty dreads and an impeccable taste in headwear.

But I didn't want to brag. :-)

[Ross Byers]

RainyDayNinja wrote:

andreww wrote:

Nefreet wrote:

We need not make this an OOC issue. There's a perfectly good IC reason why drow lookalikes aren't found: the in-game Pathfinder Society simply wouldn't hire them.

And yet they will cheerfully hire blood spattered clerics of Lamashtu, Rovagug or Zon Kuthon. Let's not pretend that the Society is terribly picky about who it employs.

And yet my cheerful candy-man cleric of Folca isn't allowed! What kind of organization would be so blatantly anti-candy?

You know, I don't think it's the candy they have a problem with.

[Grammar Cop]

captain yesterday wrote:

Technically, I guess I'm a (non evil) crocodile God god of fertility, natty dreads and an impeccable taste in headwear.

Sorry - a pet peeve of mine. :P

[BigNorseWolf]

MadScientistWorking wrote:

No it just looks like horrendously bad writing that's all.
EDIT:
Hilariously, I can think of worst elves to emulate than drow.

No ones going to complain if your elf bakes cookies.

[RainyDayNinja]

Ross Byers wrote:

RainyDayNinja wrote:

andreww wrote:

Nefreet wrote:

We need not make this an OOC issue. There's a perfectly good IC reason why drow lookalikes aren't found: the in-game Pathfinder Society simply wouldn't hire them.

And yet they will cheerfully hire blood spattered clerics of Lamashtu, Rovagug or Zon Kuthon. Let's not pretend that the Society is terribly picky about who it employs.

And yet my cheerful candy-man cleric of Folca isn't allowed! What kind of organization would be so blatantly anti-candy?

You know, I don't think it's the candy they have a problem with.

Sheesh! You abduct one child (one!), and suddenly that's all people remember about you!

[Chris Lambertz]

Removed a series of deliberately baiting posts and the responses to them.

[Jessica Price]

There seems to be a lot of talking past one another, so for clarity's sake:

World Stuff

1) Drow are not the same as dark-skinned elves like the Ekujae. There is no overlap in skin tones between them. Ekujae are elves with skin tones in the darker end of the human range, and dark hair. That is, elves can have skin tones ranging from very pale fawn (e.g. Nordic) to very dark brown (e.g. various areas in Africa). Drow, on the other hand, have skin tones not in the standard human range: obsidian black, indigo, etc. as well as pale hair.

2) Most Golarion residents haven't seen a drow. But no, an Ekujae elf or half-elf isn't likely to be mistaken for a drow, because the vast majority of Golarion residents don't know drow exist (the elves even have an entire organization, the Lantern Bearers, dedicated to keeping it that way). Those humans in a position to know about the drow--like academics, senior members of the Pathfinder Society, etc.--know enough to tell the difference between an Ekujae elf and a drow.

[Matthew Morris]

Amusingly, Captive in Crystal has a VC who struck me as very drow looking in the art...

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

captain yesterday wrote:

To be fair, Pathfinder Society allows people to own slaves (and people are just fine with it even), so...

Which has absolutely no relevance to this thread whatsoever.

You can not play a reskinned drow in PFS... period. You can play a dark brown skinned elf or half elf from Garund or Mwangi, but not the coal black tone from the Underdark.

[godsDMit]

Jessica Price wrote:

There seems to be a lot of talking past one another, so for clarity's sake:

World Stuff

1) Drow are not the same as dark-skinned elves like the Ekujae. There is no overlap in skin tones between them. Ekujae are elves with skin tones in the darker end of the human range, and dark hair. That is, elves can have skin tones ranging from very pale fawn (e.g. Nordic) to very dark brown (e.g. various areas in Africa). Drow, on the other hand, have skin tones not in the standard human range: obsidian black, indigo, etc. as well as pale hair.

2) Most Golarion residents haven't seen a drow. But no, an Ekujae elf or half-elf isn't likely to be mistaken for a drow, because the vast majority of Golarion residents don't know drow exist (the elves even have an entire organization, the Lantern Bearers, dedicated to keeping it that way). Those humans in a position to know about the drow--like academics, senior members of the Pathfinder Society, etc.--know enough to tell the difference between an Ekujae elf and a drow.

Excellent post here. :D

The Society in general isnt doing anything to keep info about the drow secret (not that you were suggesting they were) considering theyre willing to send characters as low as level 5 off to face some in a scenario.

Scenario(s) with drow:

1. Drow of the Darkland Pyramid (retired) [Edit: No, it isnt retired. Thanks, Nefreet!]
2. Tower of the Ironwood Watch (the one I mentioned above).
That's all I can think of.