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Charisma is more a measure of force of personality than one's comeliness, in fact, it's not a measure of one's attractiveness at all. You could argue that all of the attributes have attractive qualities.
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Constitution is a measurement of how healthy you are. While this can have a bearing on appearance, one doesn't need to be good looking to be hale and hearty.
Charisma is many factors. Force of personality, manners, appearance, voice tone, mannerisms... A man with low charisma may be the most beautiful man in the world, yet have have odious personal habits and an abrasive personality. At the other end of the spectrum, you might have someone who's butt ugly, yet is a passionate public speaker and who can inspire loyalty. Thus they would have a high charisma score.
Historically, Hitler was a very charismatic man. But nobody's going to claim he was a great looking one. FDR wasn't particularly good looking either, although neither was he ugly. But he was a very charismatic man.
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And yet, it's not the super models that end up with the happy stable homes. Is it? And part of that the personalities of many supermodels. It's a cutthroat business, and those who are successful tend not to be very nice people.
Think back to high school. Remember the cheerleaders and jocks? You know, the ones who basically were the top dogs in high school social circles? Remember how mean spirited many of them were? And how much more likable others were, who didn't have the looks of those cheerleaders and jocks?
While in Pathfinder (in fact in D&D for years) charisma is a measurement of your appearance, that's a minor part of the stat. Charisma is more about your personality then appearance in Pathfinder. In truth, your appearance doesn't really have much of an impact on things. Especially when you add multiple fantasy races into the mix. What humans consider ugly, orcs might consider beautiful.
There's this old episode of The Outer Limits, I think. In it there's a woman who's just undergone facial reconstructive surgery, her last chance to be made beautiful before being exiled. The last several attempts had failed after all. Throughout the entire episode you never see the faces of anyone. Then at the end they remove the bandages, and the woman is drop dead gorgeous. She looks in the mirror, and is horrified. At which point the camera pans out, and you see everyone else has pig snouts and is ugly.
That episode is a great example of how cultural mores can change what's considered good looking. So, your fighter has a charisma score of 16. This just tells you he's charismatic somehow. It's up to you the player to decide exactly what this means. Is it good looks, and relying on those? Being an intimidating man of massive stature who scares people with a stern look? A diplomat, smooth of tongue and always with just the right thing to say?
Or you have a low charisma, WHY is it low? What about you repulses others? Are you blunt to the point of rudeness? Or do you pick your nose all the time? Are you ugly and have flatulence problems? Or mayhap you just cuss all the time and insult everyone around you.
I keep thinking about how this relates to the fertility idols of ancient cultures that considered heavier women attractive as they were obviously well-fed and more likely to survive child-birth. But by modern standards, probably had lower Constitution as they were more indulged/pampered than the thin farmer's wife who was out in the fields every day.
I guess the question is this, for me: what does a high Constitution score look like if it's the measure for attractiveness?
I believe that most men (not all) are more attracted to the supermodel whose face is passable, rather than the grossly obese girl who has a pretty face and is really nice. I think the proof is modern day marketing, they know their target audience. Look who they are putting in ads.Constitution is a measurement of how healthy you are. While this can have a bearing on appearance, one doesn't need to be good looking to be hale and hearty.
Charisma is many factors. Force of personality, manners, appearance, voice tone, mannerisms... A man with low charisma may be the most beautiful man in the world, yet have have odious personal habits and an abrasive personality. At the other end of the spectrum, you might have someone who's butt ugly, yet is a passionate public speaker and who can inspire loyalty. Thus they would have a high charisma score.
Historically, Hitler was a very charismatic man. But nobody's going to claim he was a great looking one. FDR wasn't particularly good looking either, although neither was he ugly. But he was a very charismatic man.
Initial attraction yes, but that is not the same as keeping someone's attention. A pretty lady with a poor attitude will not keep a man as long as a decent looking lady who is funny that has a great personality.
Well I am sure the pretty, but rude lady can keep some guy, but that is the exception.
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I keep thinking about how this relates to the fertility idols of ancient cultures that considered heavier women attractive as they were obviously well-fed and more likely to survive child-birth. But by modern standards, probably had lower Constitution as they were more indulged/pampered than the thin farmer's wife who was out in the fields every day.So appearances in that time frame also would be Constitution based (a lower score being more attractive).
Huh? Why lower? Being heavy-set or "heavier" does not automatically mean a low Constitution. One could be thin and sickly, or whippet-thin and superfit with ropy muscle. The same is true of bigger boned/heavier individuals - you could be big (obese) and have health issues, or big and amazingly fit. I have seen big (tall, much heavier than me) guys who were also amazingly graceful and could spin on a dime.
Stockiness or thin-frames can also be environmentally determined - altitude (barrel chested mountains dwellers) or the lack thereof (tall thin plains dwellers) for example. Neither is a measure of "Healthiness" or general constitution.
I'm seeing a lot of...frames of reference here that are entirely subjective.
Why is Charisma, not constitution, the measurement of appearance? A pretty face is nice, sure, but doesn't modern-day marketing teach us that it's the fantastic body (high constitution) that sells products more than the pretty smile (high charisma)?
And I'm talking on average. I know some people would prefer a pretty face and overweight body vs the fit body and ok face, but I think that they make up a minority. And if they're not the minority, than every marketing company in North America has got it wrong (I doubt they have).
Note: I'm not saying that it's right that a vast majority of people prefer someone who is fit over those who are not, but that does seem to be the truth of the matter in most cases.
Why? Because it doesn't.
Neither constitution or charisma determine the attractiveness of a creature.
For instance a coloxus demon has a charisma of 23.
Form over function?
Function over form?
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Charisma is much more a factor of appearance than constitution. Charisma is having the "it" factor. For whatever reason people are drawn to you. A beautiful person with a low charisma will still be attractive to you. You will rationalize for a long time why you are putting up with such a jerk but you will spend much more time with such a jerk than you will with an average joe or plain jane with the same or better charisma score. There is a reason why paladins were always required to have a high charisma and same with bards. In the paladin's case they set the example for others to follow, while bards tend to sing for their supper. Yes, other factors like dressing well, being in shape and having a personality are big helps but when it boils down to it, charisma is that undefinable quality that makes some leaders and others followers. You can see numerous examples of beautiful women with men that are not fashion models (Mick Jagger, Keith Richards, Tiger Woods, Lyle Lovett, Seal, Griffin Guess, Dennis Kucinich & Donald Trump all spring to mind.)
Charisma is the it factor and men tend to be more visually oriented than women when it comes to selecting a mate. That's just reality.
I'm sure they just didn't include a "Sexiness" score,because the game doesn't much address sex.
It also allows everyone to imagine their character as "good looking" if they want.
I don't see many "uggo" iconics...regardless of Cha score.
Because you can be fit without being attractive, and you can be attractive without being fit.
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Charisma is much more a factor of appearance than constitution. Charisma is having the "it" factor. For whatever reason people are drawn to you. A beautiful person with a low charisma will still be attractive to you. You will rationalize for a long time why you are putting up with such a jerk but you will spend much more time with such a jerk than you will with an average joe or plain jane with the same or better charisma score.You seemed to have confused pleasantness for physical attractiveness.
Charisma is your personality. Constitution is your fitness. People with a fantastic body and an average face are generally more *physically* attractive than the obese person with a great personality.
There is a reason why paladins were always required to have a high charisma and same with bards. In the paladin's case they set the example for others to follow, while bards tend to sing for their supper. Yes, other factors like dressing well, being in shape and having a personality are big helps but when it boils down to it, charisma is that undefinable quality that makes some leaders and others followers.But this has nothing to do with physical beauty which is the topic of my thread.
Yes, nice people tend to draw more followers, but that doesn't mean they have a "hot" body which is the purpose of this thread.
men tend to be more visually oriented than women when it comes to selecting a mate. That's just reality.Which would be constitution, not charisma. Which is exactly what this thread is all about.
But ask a woman who is more PHYSICALLY attractive between a male athlete and an obese fellow who has a great personality and even females will point to the athlete.
Females aren't blind. They know who is hotter. They just don't make physical attractiveness their #1 priority as much as men do.
Actually your constitution theory does not really correlate to a D&D/Pathfinder game. Constitution rarely measures strict physical fitness. It also includes resistance to disease, poison and physical health. The main race with a constitution bonus (dwarf) is also the race with a Cha penalty. No lore has portrayed dwarves as the sexy, come get me race. They are squat, sturdy and rotund. Some people may find dwarven body stereotypes to be attractive but you would not see dwarves portrayed in provocative or sexualized stereotypes as elves, drow, nymphs or succubus
"Charisma measures a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance"
Apperarance is "The way that someone or something looks"
"Constitution represents your character's health and stamina."
Did it ever said in constitution at any point your PC will be all fit and will have a model body OP? Want the fun part?
The model body and the fully tunned up exercised body BOTH can be asked by the guy with charisma 18, because both have to do with how something looks , not with how it performs.
So you indeed will actually have more stamina and more health , but you can look like one of those really , really skinny maratonistas , which no one will deny have these qualities , but really dont look all that impressive at all.
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Okay, question, how well do you think your average model would do in an endurance trial. I don't think she, or he for that matter, would very good, because they go for attractiveness, not fitness. A number of them even engage in rather unhealthy practices to maintain those looks, especially in regards to diet. We're talking, infertility, osteoporosis and kidney damage here. That's not a high constitution, quite the opposite I'd say.
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Neither Charisma nor Constitution determines how attractive you are. Just because you have a striking appearance does not mean you are attractive. You high CHA character could easily have unusual features like red eyes and hair like flame and still look like a dog.
As for the supermodels having a high CON that is the furthest from the truth you can get. They often starve themselves and engage in a lot of unhealthy activities to maintain their appearance. Even the exercises they do are not about keeping fit, but looking good. Many of them are also have surgical procedures simply for the sake of looks. What you see on the cover of a magazine is probably just as much makeup and photography as it is real beauty. Not that they don’t look good, just it is mostly fake.
People often use Hitler as an example of a unattractive person with a high CHA. This is totally accurate, but also consider that Hitler’s looks were actually quite distinct. Most of it was due to his signature mustache and hair. Hitler’s look at this point is probably the most well know look in the world. If you were to dress up as Hitler complete with mustache and hair almost anyone on the planet would recognize who you were trying to look like. If on the other hand you dressed up as FDR many people would not know who you were imitating.
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Why is Charisma, not constitution, the measurement of appearance?
Because the measure of appearance is how much you have of it, not the quality of it. Hags have high Charisma and are ugly as sin. All your high appearance means is that people will notice you more than the base 10 PC and be more susceptible to your influence. Either out of awe or revulsion.
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Most models don't seem to be physically fit, and instead most of them seem malnourished and underexercised. Yeah, they may have a six pack, but it's because they have no fat whatsoever, which is extremely unhealthy, and furthermore, very impratical. Fat gives you reserves to turn into energy in lean times. If you have none, then you won't survive a famine. Too much is bad, but as with all things, a balance must be maintained.
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Another thing, a Belier Devil, an obese three headed slug monster has a higher constitution score than either an Erinyes or a Succubus. The latter two probably fit the criteria for "attractive" far better than Sluggy McFatleech.