Absolutely not!
It doesn't negate fatigue, it merely allows you to keep watch while 'sleeping'.
Walking is 'vigorous activity' so would immediately negate the spell (and marching 24/7 would be a bad idea because of this).
This first level spell basically just negates the sleeping penalty to Perception.
For the Keep Watch spell, what exactly constitutes 'vigorous activity'? If you have enough caster levels, could you just KW everyone in the party and march on 24/7?
This spell enables the subjects to stand watch or keep vigil throughout the night without any ill effects.
Does marching through the night count as 'standing watch' or 'keeping vigil'? No? Then the spell doesn't apply. That's not flavor text, it's a description of what the spell does.
Fighting is brought up most likely because this is a common way for a watch to be interrupted, not because they want to let you rules-lawyer it into 'I can walk all day and all night with this spell and never get fatigued.'
The word vigorous was ill chosen. Vigorous is a technical term in exercise science, and refers to activity above a particular metabolic threshold. Fighting is an example of vigorous activities in the technical sense as well as in the looser sense that the other participants in this thread are employing it.
For game balance reasons, I am inclined to agree with the narrow interpretation of the spell. That doesn't mean the spell is not badly written. It is only a first level spell after all, and it shouldn't do very much.
Walking patrol around a camp at night? Not vigorous activity assuming it is punctuated by rest stops.
Trying to hike all night to get some extra mileage? Definitely vigorous activity.
Even if a bit of walking is not vigorous activity, walking for eight hours certainly is. My rule of thumb would be that anything that could qualify as some sort of workout is going to qualify as vigorous activity.
Did you work up a sweat while doing it? Probably vigorous activity.
Did you work up a sweat while doing it? Probably vigorous activity.
That's not a bad description (IMHO),.... but it also doesn't preclude walking all night.
As I said earlier, "vigorous" activity has a technical meaning, as does "moderate" and "light." Walking (specifically, walking at about 2.5 mph) falls into the light activity category. The average walking pace of a human is just over 3 mph, so this would perhaps better be described as "strolling," but it's certainly something that someone could keep up for eight hours without breaking a sweat, especially if they're in as good shape as the average Golarion adventurer (as opposed to a modern American couch potato that gets out of breath opening a bag of Cheetos).
The real potential for abuse, though, is that almost everything semi-sedentary that people do would also qualify as light activity, which would include things like item crafting. Scribing a scroll is essentially desk work, while brewing potions is basically sitting in front of a Bunsen burner mixing ingredients (the heat source is mandatory by rule, as is a flat surface to work on, but there's no space requirement, so it's not like you even need to get up and move from one end to the room/campsite to the other.) Allowing keep watch to work on any non-"vigorous" activity (in the technical sense) basically allows crafters to be even more dominant then they already are.
^ this, i was going to ask about spell research and crafting (or retraining, that came up in a campaign im in)
if you use keep watch can you get in double research times? double crafting times?
^ this, i was going to ask about spell research and crafting (or retraining, that came up in a campaign im in)
if you use keep watch can you get in double research times? double crafting times?
I think that depends upon the specific nature of the activity. If you're retraining a feat, and the feat you're retraining into is Run or Lunge,.... well, that sounds vigorous and possibly painful. If you're retraining skill points into Knowledge (arcana), that sounds like sitting and reading, which is light activity. Crafting a suit of plate mail probably requires pounding sheets of metal into shape on an anvil, while scribing a scroll involves dipping a pen in magical ink. On the other hand, forging a ring -- I've seen this done -- can be as simple as putting some gold over a heat source, melting it, and pouring it into a mold. (Bullets are even easier, since lead melts at such a low temperature.)
So the real question is, do you feel that druids are sufficiently underpowered that they need more opportunities to craft?
hmm, i was mostly asking for my inquisitor. they get few enough spells that (if it is pathfinder kosher) i would probably have him research some more while everyone else is asleep. you know, as long as there are no random encounters or whatever its a good use of the time
the retraining was for another player, it took his character most of a month to retrain (he was level 5 and decided he wanted to spec as a summoner arcanist instead of a healer arcanist). i didn't discover the spell until after he had finished though
hmm, i was mostly asking for my inquisitor. they get few enough spells that (if it is pathfinder kosher) i would probably have him research some more while everyone else is asleep.
Er, aren't Inquisitors spontaneous casters? So their limited spells selection isn't something they can really overcome by research -- you get two second-level spells at fourth level, and that's it. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding.
^ this, i was going to ask about spell research and crafting (or retraining, that came up in a campaign im in)
if you use keep watch can you get in double research times? double crafting times?
Crafting time limits are written into the rules as very explicit limits - four hours per day while adventuring and eight hours per day during downtime. It doesn't have any provision for increasing this if you don't need to sleep (using a Ring of Sustenance, for instance).
ah, there's a hard limit. that's kind of annoying (although i get its a game balance thing). still, this way you could get your crafting/research in without actually setting aside any time you should be adventuring during the day
hmm, i was mostly asking for my inquisitor. they get few enough spells that (if it is pathfinder kosher) i would probably have him research some more while everyone else is asleep.Er, aren't Inquisitors spontaneous casters? So their limited spells selection isn't something they can really overcome by research -- you get two second-level spells at fourth level, and that's it. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding.
yeah there's nothing you can do about the spells per day. but you can research a few more spells to put on the list at least. im not saying its super optimized or anything, its just a slightly better use of the time than doing nothing at all for 8 hours a day.
also its pretty flavorful for a zealot inquisitor type, his entire life is consumed by pursuing whatever evil hes after, so much so that he researches better ways of doing that instead of sleeping
ah, there's a hard limit. that's kind of annoying (although i get its a game balance thing). still, this way you could get your crafting/research in without actually setting aside any time you should be adventuring during the day
yeah there's nothing you can do about the spells per day. but you can research a few more spells to put on the list at least.hmm, i was mostly asking for my inquisitor. they get few enough spells that (if it is pathfinder kosher) i would probably have him research some more while everyone else is asleep.Er, aren't Inquisitors spontaneous casters? So their limited spells selection isn't something they can really overcome by research -- you get two second-level spells at fourth level, and that's it. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding.
Except I don't think you can. I'm not talking about the spells-per-day limit, but the spells-known limit.....
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Sorcerer is trying to learn Haste! ... But Sorcerer already knows two third level spells. Would Sorcerer like to forget a spell to make room for Haste?
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you can definitley spend time to add spells from your spell list to your spells known, but its a downtime rule (similar to designing a new spell actually) so maybe you can't use it during an adventure anyway: Spell Research.
EDIT: looked at it again, in addition to the time and gold you need a source (like a book or something i guess?) to learn the spell from
you can definitley spend time to add spells from your spell list to your spells known, but its a downtime rule (similar to designing a new spell actually) so maybe you can't use it during an adventure anyway: Spell Research.
I'm afraid you're simply wrong and misapplying the rule. The "spells known" limitation is hard-coded in to the spontaneous casters for game balance reasons. The rules you are looking at are for prepared casters and for invention of new spells altogether.
I suppose you could open a new thread for FAQ to resolve this,.... but I doubt you'd get anywhere with it. This thread has a pretty good summary of forum consensus.
you can definitley spend time to add spells from your spell list to your spells known, but its a downtime rule (similar to designing a new spell actually) so maybe you can't use it during an adventure anyway: Spell Research.
Huh. Takes a while, but if you can make all the checks, it's 30% off of a page of spell knowledge.
Those spell research rules do NOT add new spells to your list of spells known.
These rules let you do two possible things:
1. Make up a new spell that doesn't exist. Maybe you want a spell that transforms gemstones into rotten eggs. So you spend downtime researching this spell, make your rolls, and now this Transmute Gems to Rotten Eggs spell exists. Note: this spell is now on your "class list" but you don't automatically "know" this spell yet - see below.
2. Add a spell to your "class list" that doesn't exist there. Maybe you're an inquisitor who wants to be able to cast Fireball, but it's not on the inquisitor "class list". So you research it and add it to your "class list" but you don't actually "know" this spell yet - see below.
Regardless of which option you chose above, your "class list" of spells available to YOU (other members of your class who didn't do this research cannot benefit from it) has increased. But that does not mean you automatically know the spell. If you're a wizard (or similar class) you can add this spell to your spellbook following the usual rules (there is a cost in time and money to do this). If you're a divine caster, you can prepare it in the morning like any other spell. If you're a spontaneous caster (like sorcerer or inquisitor), you MUST pick this as one of your "spells known" before you can begin using it.
In short, doing the downtime spell research simply adds a spell that you MIGHT know, once you follow your existing class rules to get access to it.
For the Keep Watch spell, what exactly constitutes 'vigorous activity'? If you have enough caster levels, could you just KW everyone in the party and march on 24/7?
Probably the closest rule to what might define vigorous activity is this:
You gain the staggered condition and can only take a single move or standard action each turn (but not both, nor can you take full-round actions). You can take move actions without further injuring yourself, but if you perform any standard action (or any other strenuous action) you take 1 point of damage after completing the act. Unless your activity increased your hit points, you are now at –1 hit points and dying.
Those spell research rules do NOT add new spells to your list of spells known.
These rules let you do two possible things:
1. Make up a new spell that doesn't exist. Maybe you want a spell that transforms gemstones into rotten eggs. So you spend downtime researching this spell, make your rolls, and now this Transmute Gems to Rotten Eggs spell exists. Note: this spell is now on your "class list" but you don't automatically "know" this spell yet - see below.
2. Add a spell to your "class list" that doesn't exist there. Maybe you're an inquisitor who wants to be able to cast Fireball, but it's not on the inquisitor "class list". So you research it and add it to your "class list" but you don't actually "know" this spell yet - see below.
Regardless of which option you chose above, your "class list" of spells available to YOU (other members of your class who didn't do this research cannot benefit from it) has increased. But that does not mean you automatically know the spell. If you're a wizard (or similar class) you can add this spell to your spellbook following the usual rules (there is a cost in time and money to do this). If you're a divine caster, you can prepare it in the morning like any other spell. If you're a spontaneous caster (like sorcerer or inquisitor), you MUST pick this as one of your "spells known" before you can begin using it.
In short, doing the downtime spell research simply adds a spell that you MIGHT know, once you follow your existing class rules to get access to it.
Maybe we are looking at different rulesets? I would like to see the one that lets you add spells not in your class list to your class list.
Here is the one i was referring to:
The standard rules allow you to perform spell research, either to create a new spell or learn an existing spell from another source. In the downtime system, the steps for spell research each day are as follows.
Pay 100 gp × the spell's level for research costs and rare ingredients. You may spend Goods or Magic toward this cost.
Determine the total days of progress required to complete the research, which is 7 × the spell level.
Determine the spell research DC, which is 10 + twice the spell's level.
Attempt a Spellcraft check and a Knowledge check (arcana for an arcane spell, religion for a divine spell) against the spell research DC. You can't take 10 on these checks. You may spend Magic to modify a check result, with 1 point of Magic adding 2 to your total (maximum +10). If both checks succeed, you make 1 day's progress toward completing the spell. When your days of progress equal the total number of days needed, the spell is completed and added to your spellbook or list of spells known.If either or both spell research checks fail by 4 or less, you make no progress. For each check that fails by 5 or more, your research has led to poor results and you lose a day of progress toward completing the spell.
If you're an alchemist, you can use this downtime option to research a new extract formula. Instead of a Spellcraft check, attempt a Craft (alchemy) check. For Knowledge (arcana) checks, you may attempt a Knowledge (nature) check instead.
Again, its from the Downtime rules (are they alternate or just not used very often?)
EDIT: D'oh, scrolled to the top of the page, its an alternate system
No, you can certainly add it to your list of spells known - as long as you follow the rules for your class about adding spells known. You could research a thousand new spells in your downtime, but if you, at your current level, could only know three spells, then you have to choose which three you know.
The rules say you add it to your spellbook (anybody with a spellbook can do this anyway, any time) or your spells known because it's assumed you won't bother to research a spell you can't use.
So the usual process (let's say for your inquisitor) is:
1. I just hit level 8! Yay!. I gained 1 third level spell. That's it. Just that one spell.
2. Hmmm, I don't want to learn anything on my list. I really want to learn fireball but it's not on my list. Lucky for me, I have some downtime.
3. Pay 300gp
4. Plan to spend at least 21 days
5. Each day you must make the Spellcraft check vs. DC 16) and a Knowledge (religion) check against DC 16. Each day that you make both checks you count that as one of your 21 days as described above in your quoted rule.
6. At the end of the time, at least 21 days or more if you failed some checks, you can now add this spell to your list of Spells Known. Congratulations, now you can cast Fireball.
But note: you still only got ONE new spell at level 8. No more. Ever.
If you decide to research Lightning Bolt while you're still level 8, you will not be able to add it to your list of spells known because you cannot gain any more spells at this level. You (probably) could do the research now, then when you reach level 9 and you are allowed to learn 1 third level spell, you could learn Lightning Bolt thanks to your downtime spell research.
To reiterate, you only add spells known through these research rules if your character is allowed to learn a new spell known, which for spontaneous casters, happens only when they level up.
I would like to see the one that lets you add spells not in your class list to your class list.
It's right there in the rule you quoted. First sentence:
The standard rules allow you to perform spell research, either to create a new spell or learn an existing spell from another source.
You're an inquisitor. Your "source" is your inquisitor spell list. The wizard spell list is another source. So you could research Fireball from that other source.
Your Fireball would be exactly like the wizard Fireball, unchanged. Except yours would be divine.
And if you are able to add a spell to your list of Spells Known, then you can now add Fireball as a known spell.
oh, duh, fixed spells known table as opposed to a spellbook. my bad lol
so it won't work for spontaneous casters, but what if the inquisitor uses Keep Watch on the wizard? can he do spell research when everyone else is asleep?
EDIT: so I can build a blaster inquisitor? or oracle? with tons of money and time anyway. that's kinda scary (moreso the oracle than the inquisitor)
oh, duh, fixed spells known table as opposed to a spellbook. my bad lol
so it won't work for spontaneous casters, but what if the inquisitor uses Keep Watch on the wizard? can he do spell research when everyone else is asleep?
EDIT: so I can build a blaster inquisitor? or oracle? with tons of money and time anyway. that's kinda scary
And we're back to the question of "does the wizard really need more capacities, because the class is so legendarily underpowered in the first place?"
I don't think that's the purpose of the spell -- the purpose is to allow what is in the spell description, keeping watch -- and I think a narrow reading is better for game balance.