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So I want to start a Kingmaker campaign soon. Generally I'm not a fan of giving XP, so normaly I just have player level-ups as the story goes on.
In Kingmaker though, I want that open world feeling and I fear my players will metagame a bit and start "grinding" before doing quests.
My first thought was to have a set level for each book. I have no problem adapting encounters. So I would just let them start at lvl 4 for example. After they finish the first book, they are level 8 for the second and so on.
What are your thoughts about it? Do you have other ideas/approaches?
I don't do XP because I don't see the point of it. What do you mean by "grinding"?
It's from video games, essentially just walking around, killing shit for the experience points without advancing the story. Thus ensuring when (or if) they do advance the story it is as easy as possible.
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Actually, I think that this is where tossing XP out the window really helps. Sure its an open world, but if the players know that you will be giving level ups out when it is appropriate, then there is no need for them to necessarily keep going back to previously explored hexes and just sitting there waiting for something to wander by, etc. You can tell the players that you have a "general guide" for when they are to level up (i.e. roughly how many encounters) but make it clear to them that its not strictly "every X encounters". Combining this with a good introduction to the campaign stating that its very sandboxy and that the Stolen Lands are a very dangerous place and you should be ok.
The big thing you want to avoid is making the players think they have to hit certain "story breaks" in order to level. The main reason for this is that if they think level ups occur only at certain story points, then they are likely to make a bee line for the Stag Lord, which is likely to be problematic. Just explain it to them and they should understand that killing just to kill won't actually get them anything (other than maybe some furs to sell) but at the same time give them warning that running straight to the edge of the map is also likely to find them in hot water. If it really looks like your players are still just trying to grind, then you can simply tell them "You know you have fully explored this hex right?" That will give them a good hint that its the exploring (in the first couple books at least) that unlocks the level ups, and not the killing per se. It will also likely slow them down a bit in their rush to the Stag Lord. Let's face it, the AP pretty much assumes most of the main bosses are encountered near the end (i.e. after exploring everything else), but there really are no specific mechanics in place to avoid the party going straight to the end.
So I want to start a Kingmaker campaign soon. Generally I'm not a fan of giving XP, so normaly I just have player level-ups as the story goes on.
A lot of published aventures explicitly support this way of handling it, for example, by stating (usually at the beginning of the volume) something like "This adventure is designed for a party of 4-6 7th level characters. They should be 8th level by the time they get to Brunhilda's castle and should be 9th level before entering the Bog of Eternal Stench. At the end of the story, the adventurers should be 10th level."
It reduces a lot of grinding, but also reduces the incentive to completist-ly explore every cave and cottage, which means that the party may well miss both story hooks and loot. It also runs the risk of the party having their wealth and their level getting out of sync with each other (if we rush forward to the castle without bothering to take out the trolls, we won't get their hoard. They can also miss plot-important items -- they don't get the wand of pass-through-gingerbread they need to get into the witch's cottage, and they don't get the Brunhilda-bane spear in the troll's forge.
I'm generally a fan of this approach, though, so I would recommend leveling by milestones over leveling by XP as long as you can keep the party reasonably on track.
I agree with Gargs. Generally, I basically hand out level-ups after "boss fights," regardless if they advance the main plot or not. Generally, a boss must require multiple other encounters (or actively avoiding other encounters) and must be at least of a challenge rating equal to the party's level + 2.
Another thing: once the players surpass 5th level or so, they are powerful enough to start drawing attention to themselves. Those that see an up-and-coming band of murderhobos PCs in their vicinity will consider if they pose a threat, and will act accordingly. In other words, if the players walk little circles in the Forest of Flaming Skies, hoping to bump heads with a random CR 9 monster so they can level up, eventually the lich, the red dragon, and the corrupt nobleman will team up, and the players may find themselves ambushed by a dozen Skeletal Champion assassins and a strafing red dragon.
This is, of course, a last resort. But the players should experience some level of urgency in their quests, whether it's that the maiden will be sacrificed if they do not reach the blood cult by sundown or that the vampire knows the names and home addresses of each of the PC's parents' houses.
EDIT Right, sorry. Boss-fights-that-don't-matter bit might not be applicable in an AP. Still, yeah. Intelligent enemies prepare themselves intelligently. Don't let the players feel like they've got time to sit back and grind.
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Punishing PCs for being too slow is an intention I have.
Well, I'll maybe try a combination of story-based levelups and XP gain. When they don't know, that they are getting XP, they probably won't focus on getting more by grinding.
But let's talk more in detail. Imagine the following situation occurs:
They are getting somewhere they should not be on their level. I won't let them die for it, but I'll show them, that it's dangerous. So let's assume they escape and get to safety somehow (and that's a generous assumption, 'cause it may be too late, if they recognize the danger).
How can they know when it's best to return? (without me directly saying it to the players - not to the characters)
Also, I plan with having them bear the consequences, so they get intimidated even more.
Any scenarios like this you had in your group so far? Or some general advices?
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Punishing PCs for being too slow is an intention I have. [...] [But if they are too fast, they may die] 'cause it may be too late, if they recognize the danger).
Well, that's a nice damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation. Even video game designers know better than to do that, which is why they color code the monsters so you know that this particular ogre is red and should not be messed with at your level.
Also, I plan with having them bear the consequences, so they get intimidated even more.
Yes, nothing makes gaming fun like a game master who's trying to mess with your head and make you afraid to actually have the adventure he planned.
Any scenarios like this you had in your group so far? Or some general advices?
Just one piece of general advice. Don't.
More specifically, if you want them to move quickly, it is your responsibility to telegraph clearly and as far in advance as possible if they're getting over their head. If you want them to move slowly, the easiest way to do that is to "intimidate them" so that they feel they need to get more powerful before they go out into the Great Unknown.
And withholding XP-based levelling when their immediate goal is more XP so that they can adventure in reasonable safety will produce a vicious circle. They won't get the levels they need, so they'll spend even more time turtling, and the entire campaign is likely to grind to a halt. And then you can "punish" them for doing the rational thing, and so they'll realize they need even more XP-based levels because even what they think are level-appropriate monsters are too difficult for them, and this will all end in puppies, kittens, and rainbows for everyone! Or maybe not.
Yep, just level by experience and explain to your group there is no grinding for XP in this game.
Edit: Wait...just read more.
Don't punish them for being slow. If you're purposefully intimidating them (which causes them to go slow), you shouldn't then punish them for going slow.
Once the party is ready for a challenge have a round about way of reintroducing the formerly too powerful enemy. The party can encounter henchmen who they capture, or find a note from the BBEG that leads them back to the formerly too powerful enemy. The players should remember the last encounter, but will hopefully recognize that they've grown since then.
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With "too slow" I ment the grinding part, not discovering every hex.
So if they "discover" a tile a third time, maybe some bandits did a few things at the trading post. That's the punishment.
When I'm talking about consequences, I mean preparation for example. Intelligent enemies once encountered will be ready for a second time, maybe with some bear traps hidden or scouts in their (adjacent) hexes.
But the "damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation" is at hand. That's what I want to prevent. Just not via railroading or too much out-of-character comments.
Don't punish them for being slow. If you're purposefully intimidating them (which causes them to go slow), you shouldn't then punish them for going slow.Once the party is ready for a challenge have a round about way of reintroducing the formerly too powerful enemy. The party can encounter henchmen who they capture, or find a note from the BBEG that leads them back to the formerly too powerful enemy. The players should remember the last encounter, but will hopefully recognize that they've grown since then.
It's not that I plan on intimadating them, it's that I fear they will get intimidated.
Giving hints via messages and NPCs is a great idea.
Alright, well I think I have a better idea of what you're suggesting now.
You're not so much suggesting a punishment as having a living world around the characters.
The run into a den of thieves and find themselves so heavily out numbered they decide to retreat and live to fight another day. Discretion being the better part of valor.
But, next week they hear about some rogues (not the class necessarily) harassing travelers on the roads. Perhaps some raucous brawls in a tavern that happened to cause substantial damage. Maybe some fine wine from a storehouse has gone missing. And the evidence can eventually point back to the location/group that the party avoided before.
One advantage you have in KM is that the Charter specifically tells the party to explore and map. The good thing about that is, there is an inherent incentive to NOT just run straight to the Stag Lord at the end. So that, in and of itself, should help to keep the players in check. If you are still concerned though that they might rush off to the end right away, one thing you can do is to simply reduce the knowledge of the bandits in the beginning and at the bandit camp. The party can't pursue that which they know nothing about. Combining that with the Charter and you should ensure that the party doesn't just run to the end. You can then add in hints about Staggy's location through random bandit encounters later on (i.e. as they get closer to the fort).
Now, for the flip side (the party is simply grinding) your first advantage is to simply tell them that you are dumping XP. If there's no "XP" for killing Snarks, then why would they go hunting for them? But, you are right in that this should be a living campaign. If the PC's just want to hide out at Oleg's and wait for Staggy to come to them, then maybe he will. But, you can bet that eventually he'll bring an enormous horde with him. Plus, since the PCs have just been hanging out at the B&B, they won't have accomplished anything to deserve a level up. Or gear for that matter.
In other words, telling the PCs that a skeleton isn't worth XP will likely reduce their inclination to kill every last moving object. Likewise, knowing that they are tasked with exploring the entire Greenbelt will also give them an incentive to not just run to the end (which is in a location they do not necessarily know about right away).
KM awards XP for exploring hexes, annexing hexes, building settlements, and filling those settlements.
Nazrelle, you know your players better than us, but do you think they're really *likely* to grind for XP? In my experience, the practice doesn't generally happen at the gaming table, because grinding is frankly boring, and tabletop gaming is a social exercise. Some people grind when playing a computer game, but in a tabletop game with your friends sitting around you and an intelligent GM controlling the world rather than a fixed set of algorithms, I don't see it as being particularly likely.
There's also the question of what the players would actually *do* in order to grind in the first module of Kingmaker. Hanging around in the same place hoping for wandering monsters is probably the worst strategy, because the wandering monster table has some of the most dangerous encounters on it. You can get that message across to them through tales of terror from Oleg and Svetlana and local trappers and huntsmen, through finding tracks or other evidence of the more dangerous inhabitants of the Stolen Lands, and from actual encounters in situations where the players can flee. A first level party that doesn't turn its horses and run if they spot 3 trolls charging towards them over the crest of a hill has some unfortunate lessons to learn about the hazards of a fantasy world. I actually explicitly told my players before we started playing KM that it wasn't all nicely level-balanced and that there were random encounters that could TPK them, so they should adjust their expectations accordingly.
Probably the safest way to grind for XP early on is to go for the 100-XP-per-hex exploration reward... and that's what they should be doing in the first module anyway!
You might also offer one-off XP rewards for novel experiences that you as the GM want to encourage, as another way to keep them pushing forward... perhaps you'll award them XP for the first time they forge their own way across a river, for example. But if they turn around and try to cross back in order to "grind" more XP, they shouldn't be surprised when the GM just says "you won't get more XP doing that".
You should also grant XP for encounters for behaviour other than murdering everything, too... if the players capture bandits rather than slaying them, or negotiate with kobolds, or drive off a bear that sniffed out their rations during the night, they've still survived the encounter and should get some XP. Heck, if they get into a fight and then decide that they're in trouble and manage to flee, I'd award them XP for their valuable learning experience.
Also, as an aside I'd like to note that rushing straight to the fort does not necessarily mean *fighting* the Stag Lord and his bandits. My players visited the fort early on disguised as bandits (with a won-over former bandit with them to lend them credibility), handed over loot (!) from Thorn River camp, chatted with the inhabitants over a meal, checked out the layout of the place, got the next password and then headed off again into the wilderness. That's actually business as usual at the fort. My players gathered valuable intelligence about a place they knew they'd have to deal with, established their bona fides with the bandits for future visits, and gave me an opportunity to showcase the Stag Lord and some of the personalities and politics going on there ahead of time. It was great. The module as written does rather encourage the party to go to the fort early on (there's a strong incentive to head straight to Thorn River camp, where you learn a password that will expire within a week), so it's nice that there's actually a way for the players to do that without just dying.
It's from video games, essentially just walking around, killing s!$~ for the experience points without advancing the story. Thus ensuring when (or if) they do advance the story it is as easy as possible.
I knew about that, but once he said he was removing XP I was wondering how the grinding would take place so I thought he had a different definition.
Ah! I see, yes, that would be confusing, I missed that part at the time. :-)
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It's from video games, essentially just walking around, killing s!$~ for the experience points without advancing the story. Thus ensuring when (or if) they do advance the story it is as easy as possible.I knew about that, but once he said he was removing XP I was wondering how the grinding would take place so I thought he had a different definition.
That would have been my first attempt to prevent grinding, but I wasn't really happy with that.
And yes, I know my players. That's the problem. They are kinda new to PnP and they often do things they learned in exactly the kind of games, where grinding takes place.
So I think at some point it will come up and I want to make clear it's useless/not intented etc., but the way I'll do this shouldn't be "clumsy". I want them to understand in an ingame way.
But your ideas were great. Helped me a lot so far and maybe I'm still too panicked without reason.
It's from video games, essentially just walking around, killing s!$~ for the experience points without advancing the story. Thus ensuring when (or if) they do advance the story it is as easy as possible.I knew about that, but once he said he was removing XP I was wondering how the grinding would take place so I thought he had a different definition.
That would have been my first attempt to prevent grinding, but I wasn't really happy with that.
And yes, I know my players. That's the problem. They are kinda new to PnP and they often do things they learned in exactly the kind of games, where grinding takes place.
So I think at some point it will come up and I want to make clear it's useless/not intented etc., but the way I'll do this shouldn't be "clumsy". I want them to understand in an ingame way.But your ideas were great. Helped me a lot so far and maybe I'm still too panicked without reason.
I would just tell them PnP games don't work with grinding. Basically the game assumes that you level up at certian times, and monsters are more difficult to account for that. It's not like a video game where you can just level up until the next section becomes easy because monsters don't just auto-generate. Once they waste enough time walking around and not finding anything to fight they will catch on.
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I'm still wondering whether you are trying to preemptively solve a problem that doesn't actually exist .-.
I mean, context is a thing, people usually play different games differently. Unless you have already played with them and know they do play tabletop games just like computer games, I think you are thinking about this too much.
+1 @ wraith
...although, I'd be even more simplistic.
Just tell them that you'll level them up when appropriate & that has to do with how they play the game & not necessarily how many monsters they kill.
After all - RAW is overcoming challenges - NOT killing monsters!
The OP actually wants to use XP from what I understand. That is why I suggested what I did, which is to just stop giving them encounters if they don't get it, after he explains how the game works.
Do players really grind exp in P&P games? .-. I thought that was video game only thing
Like, doing so in P&P would feel really unnatural and take out of roleplaying. And you don't even have steady source of monsters to grind over and over :P
YES! If the GM allows them too. Of coarse by grinding, your destroy the balance of ecology of the area.
and that might mean a whole new threat arises!!
My players have, at times, tended to grind for loot. By that I mean they will search every single nook and cranny. They don't want to ever leave a dungeon for instance unless they are convinced that they have explored every square millimeter. Which is one of the reasons I am both looking forward to, and worried about, adding Rappan Athuk to my KM campaign when I run it. I may very well have to place hard roadblocks (collapsed tunnels, etc.) into it in order to get them leave once they enter. Of course, they also like to try to convince me that their 5 foot tall elves can carry 6 foot long swords strapped to their backs through 5 foot wide corridors, etc. :P
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That doesn't count as grinding for loot though :P Grinding is repeating same action that gives same rewards until you have enough of the reward. Thats more like sweeping whole dungeon over and over until you have all secret doors opened.
I'm kinda wondering though, do your players do that by some other way than "Clear dungeon, then take 20 when you have time"? .-. Or do they do that in every room or something?