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Possibly, but you are severely narrowing your audience and list of potential customers if you restricts it to those who wish to exclusively use one system.
My advice would be to go core but give sidebar alternatives for those using spheres of power. That way you are supporting that system without making your product too niche.
It's very risky, and you'd have to get the okay from the producers of the system but... well. It'd be very useful considering that many dislike the default system and using other systems can allow for much more flavour than just using "default PF and unique setting material".
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From a marketing view, being a 3pp seems to be already gamebreaker enough for a lot of players (at least I guess so given what I know of their sales numbers.
From a personal view I'd love to see a setting which actually embraces new options like those you mentioned. Golarion is kinda restricted to be dominated by the core rules stuff, the rest having, if at all, rather rare occurences. So a lot of things I really like don't get the exposure in products I would wish for.
I also don't mind variant magic systems (loved the Wheel of Time RPG system for example), so I'd rather buy a setting doing something new instead of the next generic D&D heartbreaker. The Sword's advice may be sound though, new things may be easier to swallow if integrated into stuff the players already know.
I always remember the AEG l5r stuff with the Oriental Adventures tie in that had duel system rules. That took up a lot of page space. A simple appendix conversion document might be sufficient if all you are looking at is spell differences and caster info.
The problem with a sidebar system with two magic systems is that it's almost impossible to balance the core magic system with any other. The (at least perceived) overabundance of versatility and power in the core system is what causes a lot of people to switch to something else. This imbalance makes writing an adventure with two different systems extremely difficult because they have very different assumptions about what tools NPC and PC casters will have available to them.
My advice is to pick a single non-core system, contact the creator of the system, and work with them on getting the word out about your finished project. The larger exposure might make a 3pp adventure viable. I know Adam Meyers, the author of Spheres of Power, works with community members and fans to create more Spheres of Power content, and it's already one of the most popular 3pp products out there.
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On the one hand, it would reduce your pool of potential customers since only those that were interested in that particular alternate system would probably be interested in your setting, and of course only a small percentage of those that like the alternate system will be looking for a setting anyway.
On the other hand, it would differentiate your setting from all the other ones out there, and for anyone who liked that alternate system anyway, that would make them more likely to choose your setting instead of a different one.
So whether it would be a benefit of a detriment to sales would depend on how those two factors balanced. My guess would be with Dreamscarred psionics or Spheres of Power it would be a wash, since both are fairly popular alternatives.
I expect though that you won't get rich doing this in any event, so I recommend doing it the way you most enjoy and that inspires your creativity.
Honestly, it would be an immediate deal breaker for me because it would require me to have yet another book to use it. I think using another magic system is fine, but it should be baked into the setting guide and not something I should have to go hunt down.
I agree, for what it's worth. I'm not a huge fan of 3PP to begin with (quality control issues), and so I'm unlikely to have the other book to-hand. This essentially doubles the cost of your material to me (and to everyone else that needs to reference it). Is your setting literally twice as good as the competitors?
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I'm not a huge fan of 3PP to begin with (quality control issues)
I think that's a bit unfair, though. Not only that quite some of the paizo officials started out as 3pp writers (which probably means that hteir former work wasn't too shabby), there are also quite some names out there whose work compare quite equal to the stuff Paizo produces. But ok, YMMV on that.
This essentially doubles the cost of your material to me (and to everyone else that needs to reference it).
AS the rules material most probably can be found over at d20pfsrd.com, you don't need to spend money on it, except you wanna have it. So while such a setting would probably increase the sales of Dreamscarred Press' products (or whichever system you use) a bit, It's not like everyone would have to do it.
I'm not a huge fan of 3PP to begin with (quality control issues)I think that's a bit unfair, though.
Well, I think you're an -----. Now we've both called each other names..... if you think that insulting me is going to make me start liking 3PP material in general, you're simply wrong. If anything, my opinion of 3PP material just went down a fraction from your comment.
I am indeed informed that there are some 3PP authors whose work compares well to Paizo's. One of the issues, though, is that the people who inform me of that rarely point to anything that I consider of comparable quality -- off-hand, I can only think of one third-party published product that's worth the cover price (the Way of the Wicked adventure path). A number of 3PP authors/publishers have contacted me and said "well, how about <X>?" --- and without naming names, I will say that literally nothing else suggested to me has made the cut. If you want to suggest a particular product, feel free to post or to PM me, but don't get your hopes up.
Part of the reason, I think, is that while Paizo's writers may not be any better than the top of the 3PP market, I think their editors are substantially better. (I don't know, does Paizo employ a full-time editorial staff? Most 3PP's don't and can't afford to. That might be part of the explanation.)
I also think you may overestimate the value of D20PFSRD.com. I don't see any support for Spheres of Power there, for example. And if it's there but buried, that doesn't really help me much -- free information that I can't find isn't really information.
So, that's a rather roundabout way of saying that I stand by my statement -- and if you (or the opening poster) think that telling a potential customer "you're being unfair" will make additional sales,.... think again.
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You seem to be a bit oversensitive here Orfamay Quest. Saying something is a bit unfair doesn't seem at all like name calling or an insult to me. Particularly when evidence is given to support that idea. Clearly you don't have to agree with the reasoning, and you are free to hold any opinion you like, but claiming to be insulted because someone doesn't agree with you and gives reasons why seems fairly contrary to the spirit of a discussion forum.
In any event, I don't see how someone who wouldn't buy anything 3rd party can reasonably contribute to a discussion about would make a 3rd party setting attractive.
Obviously you aren't going to buy it, and whether it uses other 3rd party material seems irrelevant to that.
I'm not a huge fan of 3PP to begin with (quality control issues)I think that's a bit unfair, though.Well, I think you're an -----. Now we've both called each other names..... if you think that insulting me is going to make me start liking 3PP material in general, you're simply wrong. If anything, my opinion of 3PP material just went down a fraction from your comment.
I am indeed informed that there are some 3PP authors whose work compares well to Paizo's. One of the issues, though, is that the people who inform me of that rarely point to anything that I consider of comparable quality -- off-hand, I can only think of one third-party published product that's worth the cover price (the Way of the Wicked adventure path). A number of 3PP authors/publishers have contacted me and said "well, how about <X>?" --- and without naming names, I will say that literally nothing else suggested to me has made the cut. If you want to suggest a particular product, feel free to post or to PM me, but don't get your hopes up.
Part of the reason, I think, is that while Paizo's writers may not be any better than the top of the 3PP market, I think their editors are substantially better. (I don't know, does Paizo employ a full-time editorial staff? Most 3PP's don't and can't afford to. That might be part of the explanation.)
I also think you may overestimate the value of D20PFSRD.com. I don't see any support for Spheres of Power there, for example. And if it's there but buried, that doesn't really help me much -- free information that I can't find isn't really information.
So, that's a rather roundabout way of saying that I stand by my statement -- and if you (or the opening poster) think that telling a potential customer "you're being unfair" will make additional sales,.... think again.
Saying that making a generalization is unfair is not a personal attack. Something to keep in mind for the future.
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Paizo employs four full-time editors (Christopher Carey, Judy Bauer, Jason Keeley, and Josh Vogt) plus executive editor James Sutter and editor-in-chief Wes Schneider. Many of the other members of the creative staff also shoulder editing duties as needed.
Okay, I've been working on some works for publication now that my academic work is less crazy.
But I honestly don't like the core magic system very much. So from a marketing view, how many people would consider a setting that uses occult handbook, Dreamscarred Press' psionics or Spheres of Power as its default magic system a dealbreaker for playing or purchasing?
If you are going through a publisher discuss with them for legal reasons. And learn OGL, find out what is open game content from those publishers.
I have a campaign setting that uses Ultimate Psionics that will one day be published. I can do that and it will state that it requires Ultimate Psionics to run. People that love psionics might want a psionic campaign setting. Is it limiting? Probably, but you don't know till you try. Will you sell over 10 copies? Probably not, but you don't know till you try.
Is it worth your time to write it enough that you like that sub-system and enjoy it? That you have to decide.
PS: there are a couple campaign settings out there that support/make use of 3rd party alternate systems.
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if you think that insulting me is going to make me start liking 3PP material in general, you're simply wrong.
I'm sorry if you felt insulted or offended by my reply. Didn't know that the term "unfair" would mean a red button to you, especially as I didn't direct it against you as a person but against something you said.
In any event, I don't see how someone who wouldn't buy anything 3rd party can reasonably contribute to a discussion about would make a 3rd party setting attractive.
I didn't say that. Obviously I would at least consider buying 3PP material, or I wouldn't bother looking at it. It's not likely that I'd buy it, but that's true of nearly everyone. Most of us have standards.
Basically, there are three cases that I can think of
* The product is above average for 3PP (or doesn't even rise to that level); no, I won't buy it.
* The product is truly exceptional. I'll buy it. (Unless....)
* The product is truly exceptional, but requires me to use other 3PP material that isn't included. We're back to "I won't buy it."
So, yes, including additional 3PP dependency is literally a deal-killer; it killed whatever chance you had of making a deal, with me at least.
Personally, I'd love to see settings made using Dreamscarred Press material or Spheres of Power or whatever. Opens the door to new ideas.
I think it would be a plus for me. However, I'd want the alternate magic system to be included within the book - or at least a fully functional subset of it.
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It would be a plus for me. I have a LOT of 3PP magic systems and other stuff, and I would love to see support like that.
I work as a freelance writer of 3PP material, and editing, etc. Just to give 'where my comment comes from' perspective.
DO IT. You're competing, if you get into 3PPing, in a crazy market that has a million alternatives, at least one major flagship, and is a fraction of a fraction of a small industry.
Your setting can't realistically compete with Paizo's. Differentiating your setting from theirs is key to making a niche and making money .
3PPers all sort of need to 'make your own fan-base,' so comments of 'limiting' yourself basically is inevitable. In opposition, supporting a well liked 3PP alternative MIGHT just get you an instant 'potential' fan-base as the original fans are likely looking for more of the same.
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From a customer standpoint, I'm more of a setting guy than a rules guy, and I'd rather prefer a new setting doing something new than being just a rehash of what the Big Leagues did before. So a setting using new mechanics and thereby creating a unique setting experience is something I'm absolutely interested in. And if, for example, you'd be using the Spheres of Power, that might net the creators' of those a bit of money I'd normally not necessarily spend for lack of need (I buy a lot just out of interest but more often than not, my money already goes in things I really want to have, so budget is a bit tight on that front).
From a worldbuilder's standpoint, I like to see what other people are doing with mechanics. Even if I don't like it, it still leaves me with ideas how to do it "better" (being a totally subjective term, of course). In creating my own homebrew I don't feel limited to official Paizo stuff and I like to peruse other sources as a means of inspiration (or sometimes outright stealing), so again, I'm highly interested in seeing such a setting.
So I'd suggest to take Luca Palosaari's advice: DO IT! :D
I say go for it - those who allow 3pp tend to be less restrictive - if someone isn't into using 3pp they already aren't your customers. I would try to include rules for the integration of the Core magic system for those who wish to use that.
Well, since you asked - that would be worse for me, but I'm only interested if your book is available in print anyhow (so I may be an irrelevant datapoint).
I dont use any electronic gaming products - my preference would be for the rules you're using to be in the campaifign book, my second best would be for you to cite "Dreamscarred Press Ultimate Psionics" (or whatever), provided I can get it in hardcopy.
It would make it a non-purchase for me if I couldn't buy the rules in print - being free or not isn't something I'd be considering.
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You know, I actually find this thread disappointing. So little chance for non-vancian campaigns.
You know, I actually find this thread disappointing. So little chance for non-vancian campaigns.
You mean, "so little chance for non-vancian Pathfinder campaigns."
I love non-Vancian magic. But Pathfinder is already a very rules-heavy game as-is, and bolting new subsystems onto it only makes the problem worse. (See any of the myriad of threads about "rules bloat" on this forum if you need supporting evidence.)
Not all games need to be Pathfinder-compatible, and it's usually better for both the game and the Pathfinder system if they aren't.
You know, I actually find this thread disappointing. So little chance for non-vancian campaigns.
Agreed! While I recognize the literary shortcuts a Vancian system allows authors and the mechanical advantage such a system allows a weak GM, I expect my players to entertain me with 'fantastic' gyrations and wild solutions within the game. I use Rogue Genius' spell point system with some modifications hard earned from 4 decades of running. The final result was printed out and mangled by my players into a better version we now use.
You mean, "so little chance for non-vancian Pathfinder campaigns."
No, I don't mean that because I don't really care for non-mechanical campaign setting books, I don't even buy books from the Campaign Setting-line of Pathfinder since so many lack mechanics or only have a tiny amount of mechanics.
I love non-Vancian magic. But Pathfinder is already a very rules-heavy game as-is, and bolting new subsystems onto it only makes the problem worse. (See any of the myriad of threads about "rules bloat" on this forum if you need supporting evidence.)
Completely disagree, especially since using something like Spheres of Magic over vancian casting makes the rules Simpler and the fact that bloat is completely subjective and I've had settings with many different types of magic already without it being bloated. For me, a game with arcane, divine, psychic, akashic, sphere, psionic, initiating, truenaming, and binding are still not "bloated". Because to me all of that is just options and give inspiration.
Not all games need to be Pathfinder-compatible, and it's usually better for both the game and the Pathfinder system if they aren't.
Of course not all games need to be PF-compatible.... but this is a pathfinder board and it not being Pathfinder-Compatible sounds like a bigger "Dealbreaker" to people who play Pathfinder than the setting using a third party magic system... So that's a considerably worse option for this thread's question.
Chiming back in again -- you're competing in a full-to-the-gills environment if you're hoping your setting alone will carry the day.
Assuming you're considering something leaning strongly toward a standard "fantasy setting" -- you have 1PP competition from Paizo's Golarion and D&D's Forgotten Realms/Dragonlance/Greyhawk et al. (if you can't make the simple ports needed to convert 3rd/3.5 versions to Pathfinder, when conversion docs exist, then you can always just play 3rd/4th/5th with system correct materials).
Then within just Pathfinder-specific 3PPers you have Kobold Press' Midgard setting and Green Ronin's Freeport settings. Not to mention the just tons of "world-neutral" stuff 3PPers produce that can be "dropped into" existing worlds of all sorts.
I'd point you to LPJ's Neoexodus or Silver Game's Ponyfinder. Each have noteworthy success because they made a niche for themselves to fill. And then hopefully they're finding new and interesting ways to exploit their little niches to make it financially sound to continue to produce stuff.
I'm not saying that using an alternate magic system or re-designing the core rules to assume psionics is normal part of the world is THE way to do it, but just trying to highlight you really need to offer people "something different" to even get attention, let alone serious sales.
Would using spheres of power be a 'turn off' for some potential buyers? Likely. Would it also attract some? If Spheres of Power already has a fairly large audience of buyers looking for more then yes it would. You don't need 'everyone' to like your stuff, you need "1,000 True Fans" to make yourself a career on. Repeat this conceptually about psionics, words of power, etc. in my mind.