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Golarion is already very human centric, it does need to be anymore so.
I found the humanocentric worldview let us actually develop and look at human cultures and nations in a way most settings have not bothered with.
Kinda miss it, 'cause I had no burning need for Catfolk/Ratfolk/Triaxians and so forth.
But, you know. Home games.
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Miss what? Golarion is still very humanocentric. In the entire inner sea region there are only three nations with non-human races primary: Kyonin (elves), Five King Mountains (dwarves) and Hold of Belkzen (orcs). If anything they have too many human nations. Quick, what characteristics differentiate Isger from Molthune from Nirmathis? I can't remember any, except that the latter two are fighting each other.
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Miss what? Golarion is still very humanocentric. In the entire inner sea region there are only three nations with non-human races primary: Kyonin (elves), Five King Mountains (dwarves) and Hold of Belkzen (orcs). If anything they have too many human nations.
Yeah...it's pretty humanocentric to this day. The additional races are all tiny minorities outside very specific places.
Quick, what characteristics differentiate Isger from Molthune from Nirmathis? I can't remember any, except that the latter two are fighting each other.
Isger is a Chelish client state that just had a war with goblins a while back.
Molthune is LN in a Prussian/Soviet sorta way, very militaristic and citizenship is only gained through military service, but can be gained by anyone. Currently invading Nirmathas.
Nirmathas is CG, a nation of forests and staunch individualists and is waging a guerilla war against Molthune's invaders.
All off the top of my head, mind you.
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Quick, what characteristics differentiate Isger from Molthune from Nirmathis? I can't remember any, except that the latter two are fighting each other.
Lay-up.
Isger is a ravaged nation, a shattered hulk of a state largely held together by the cooperation of three normally un-allied military forces. As Cheliax takes on more and more of its rebuilding and recovery efforts, it seems bent on reabsorbtion via soft power. Like other former Taldan/Chelaxian imperial holdings, it shares broad strokes of culture and language, but is presently defined by having been sufficiently weak that the Goblinblood Wars nearly destroyed it.
Nirmathas and Molthune were one country, so the differences are actually far more pronounced than they should be. Where one adopts absolute statist militarism as a path to national glory, the other exists in a state of near-anarchy, in terms of political theory, and really just wants nothing to do with the statist militarism of Molthune.
If anything, the page counts involved in introducing Triax and the like have limited the amount of time Paizo has been able to dedicate to fleshing these places out.
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Indeed. I'm fascinated by the world content and love presenting the setting, as much as I can, in the fashion intended by the creators.
I started out this way. "Problem" being that in the beginning, it was still 3.5 meaning that my players chose rule options (races, classes and so on) which weren't available at that time for Paizo because they had to restrict themselves to what was available under the OGL.
So me and my players basically had to invent stuff to include those options into the setting meaning that we already had changed the canon before we even knew what the canon would be.
Which is fine though, because I truly believe that this is an integral part of making a setting one's own.
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One of the things removed was the Demonscope from the module The Demon Within. That module was my introduction to Golarion and inspired me to run my first campaign set therein. Loved the idea behind that artifact, which was also the main focus of that campaign.I don't think it's been removed from canon - the events of the module are specifically listed in the timeline presented in The Worldwound.
Correct.
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Oh No! a couple of AP volumes were used to talk about places outside the Inner Sea. It is the end of the setting forever;) It is not like there has been any APs were the entire adventure takes place outside of the Inner Sea.
I for one am much more interested in places outside the Inner Sea region. The only place that they haven't done anything with yet in the Inner Sea that I interested in is Hermea.
But anyway back to the subject at hand. It would be nice to have a complete list of retcons from an official source...hint, hint, nudge, nudge, wink, wink.
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Oh No! a couple of AP volumes were used to talk about places outside the Inner Sea. It is the end of the setting forever;) It is not like there has been any APs were the entire adventure takes place outside of the Inner Sea.
I for one am much more interested in places outside the Inner Sea region. The only place that they haven't done anything with yet in the Inner Sea that I interested in is Hermea.
But anyway back to the subject at hand. It would be nice to have a complete list of retcons from an official source...hint, hint, nudge, nudge, wink, wink.
Not gonna happen.
As I've said upthread, the more we talk about mistakes and the like in the past, the more they become seated in the mind. My preference is to NOT talk about these mistakes and instead talk about the stuff we DO want and ARE proud of, so that in a year or five years or a decade or whatever, those elements are what folks know about and the errors are forgotten.
This is kind of the same idea as folks saying "Movies in the past were better than they are today." Not true. It's just that folks don't remember the vast majority of bad movies from the past and do remember the ones that survive the test of time. That's my hope for Golarion; that the good stuff survives the test of time and the bad stuff/errors/unfortunate choices are forgotten.
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Correct.One of the things removed was the Demonscope from the module The Demon Within. That module was my introduction to Golarion and inspired me to run my first campaign set therein. Loved the idea behind that artifact, which was also the main focus of that campaign.I don't think it's been removed from canon - the events of the module are specifically listed in the timeline presented in The Worldwound.
Hmm, my PaizoCon '13 and subsequent chat convo with James must have been retconned as well (I joke, I joke!). And I felt this post inferred it was gone as well. But that was all before The Worldwound was released and the Demonscope was considered to be rendered inert.
We fans tend to latch onto 1 or 2 minor things we really like about a setting and tend to forget others may not view those things as important against the large backdrop of information a campaign setting entails. I like most of the changes made, but understand why others may be upset by some of the changes.
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Golem101, what is Dragonfall? and what is cannon for you in draconic lore?
Don't think anyone answered this yet, so...
Dragonfall is a dragon graveyard, from module J2: Guardians of Dragonfall. As James Jacobs said upthread, this module was from when they were experimenting with campaign-agnostic modules, and its existence is not canon on Golarion. So I guess its inclusion (or not) in the setting is down to each GM to decide.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This is kind of the same idea as folks saying "Movies in the past were better than they are today." Not true. It's just that folks don't remember the vast majority of bad movies from the past and do remember the ones that survive the test of time.
Plan 9 From Outer Space would that this were true.
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The only one that bothers me is Sarenrae in Taldor. The ban receives a lot of attention in the Taldor book and is central to at least one PFS adventure.
However, a non-evil, non-totalitarian nation turning its back on one of the most popular good deities, especially one of healing, is rather straining it.
I totally agree with the ban against mainline Sarenite faith being gone, and I can certainly picture that there used to be one during the Qadiran wars that was gradually phased out with only the militant Dawnflower fanatics still outlawed. Works perfectly for me.
I don't think "retcon by ommission" works very well here. The old version was used as a plot device in a famous scenario. Without new information to put in its place, that idea will continue to linger. Better would be a soft-recon by saying "older sources sometimes exaggerate the Taldan reaction to... while in fact it's limited to..."
That way you create a new "lore object" with which to displace the offending old one. I think that works better than ommission; lorehounds abhor a vacuum :P
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Gorbacz, I think you misunderstood what I was saying, to date, no AP has the entire adventure take place in a place outside the Inner Sea. As in every volume of the AP, wich is the entire adventure.
Thanks for answering that question shadram.
Did Golarion have a dragon's graveyard or was that retconned?
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Gorbacz, I think you misunderstood what I was saying, to date, no AP has the entire adventure take place in a place outside the Inner Sea. As in every volume of the AP, wich is the entire adventure
Two things.
One, you're the only one talking about Inner Sea anything. I was referring to detailing human nations. I said nothing about them being in Avistan or northern Garund, because I'd be just as happy, if not happier, to see more on Vudra, or Casmaron, or Arcadia, or southern Garund, or ancient Thassilon, or Shory, or... You get the picture. You've entered the fray on a point no one else was making. I'd love an all-Vudra or all-Tian Xia AP.
Two... linguistic note: Most of us crusty old-timers refer to an AP as a "campaign," and its individual volumes as "adventures." Many of them even presume a period of rest and recuperation between volumes, so the notion of an AP volume as a discrete "adventure" is pretty well soldified in the English-speaking public.
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The way i see it, we have can put alternate realities in consideration. The canon is a bit fragmented right now among multiple intances of Golarion:
Baseline 3.5 Golarion Frozen in time forever in 4709, this is the baseline Golarion from Pathfinder Chronicles Campaing Setting. A lot of non-canon anymore come from it.
Baseline Pathfinder Golarion Also frozen in time in 4711, quantum copies are still generated each day. This is the main canon.
Chronological Adventure Path Golarion This is the theoritical Golarion where each Adventure Path take place in the year they are launched in Real World Earth. It´s not an assumption, but canon theorists consider it. The Iconics that are in art are the ones who got in the adventures and somehow get back to level 1 at their next appearance.
Pathfinder Society Golarion Maybe is the same place as chronological adventure path Golarion, maybe not. The Iconics are the Pathfinder Society members, the evil iconics are neutral. All scenarios take place at the launch date.
Pathfinder Comics Golarion Golarion where comics continuity take place and the adventure paths could or could not have taken place.
Pathfinder Tales Golarion Also is not clear if takes place in CAP Golarion or Comics Golarion or if all the Tales are in the same universe.
Pathfinder Legends Golarion Is not the same as CAP Golarion because different Iconics are taking the adventure Paths.
Infinite Golarions These are the Golarions each GM have and don´t count as canon, but are the ones we can adventure. A special case is James Jacobs´s Golarion, because many people consider it as proto-canon.
Did i forgot anything ?
Spoiler on the Tales one please. I haven't read that book yet. :(
Probably should just spoil the whole thing, in that case.
I guess...
I suppose three different spoilers work just as well. :)
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I got a spoiler for you.
Beware of
They'll get you every time.
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I got a spoiler for you.
Beware of ** spoiler omitted **
They'll get you every time.
It's true. And I love it!
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Alternatively, it's a place where you can see some of the "cool things" that you can use in your game as you see fit that you otherwise wouldn't find in a new book we put out. Just because Paizo changes course on canonical matters doesn't mean that the original is forbidden at individual GMs' tables, just that we won't be retreading the topics in future products.So if there's something you see in this thread that you like, feel free to run with it. Ultimately no idea is bad if it makes your game more fun, but doesn't mean we can't work to perfect the unified vision of what our campaign setting is in our own products.
Indeed. Had I not checked this thread out, I probably never would have even noticed the changes to Taldor. I would have gone with the 2009 Companion volume which has the banning of Sarenrae and the beard fixations. Frankly, I think getting rid of those two things gets rid of two of the most interesting and distinctive aspects of Taldor - old, decadent, crumbling empires being sort of "old hat" in RPG campaigns.
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As I've said upthread, the more we talk about mistakes and the like in the past, the more they become seated in the mind. My preference is to NOT talk about these mistakes and instead talk about the stuff we DO want and ARE proud of, so that in a year or five years or a decade or whatever, those elements are what folks know about and the errors are forgotten.
This is kind of the same idea as folks saying "Movies in the past were better than they are today." Not true. It's just that folks don't remember the vast majority of bad movies from the past and do remember the ones that survive the test of time. That's my hope for Golarion; that the good stuff survives the test of time and the bad stuff/errors/unfortunate choices are forgotten.
Paradoxically I believe that people now being able to get their special snowflake Paladin of Asmodeus with Paizo resources will actually spell the end of this specific obsession and that it will become a very small note in the margin of the Golarion setting :-)
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I understand how it can send the wrong message to have a definitively Lawful and Good divine being who thinks of women that way, but it really was an interesting and appropriate flaw for a god like him to have.
Women who don't conform to the ideas old-fashioned people have of them do, in fact, disrupt that community. Now, that's a problem with the community being overly strict and traditional, of course, but you can see how a well-meaning old timer trying to provide for every family in the multiverse could have that mindset. You can see how an impossibly old man could have such an impossibly outdated view of gender roles.
It could have even been left in as something he grew out of after spending enough time with Iomedae and the other (relatively) recent goddesses. Female clergy would still be rare and his worshipers would be as uncomfortable as he was about the whole thing, but they'd be making an effort to understand, no matter how long it took their overly Lawful thinking to change.
Basically anything is more interesting than just saying it never happened.
Except, in terms of Golarion's history, it's correct that it never happened.
Golarion doesn't have a history of misogyny like Earth does, so "traditional" communities, in most cases, don't involve constrained roles for women. (In fact, the cultures that do have those sexist elements tend to be newer than the ones that don't--e.g. Amiri's Kellid tribe, which is from a culture considerably younger than cultures like Thassilon, which had male and female leaders in equal numbers, or, taking a step further, the matriarchal cultures of southern Garund, or the matrilineal Keleshites, or heck, the elves.)
So how "old-fashioned" you are has nothing to do with sexism. If a deity is misogynist, it has nothing to do with his age. He's not carrying on any widely understood tradition.
In my home game, we started playing back when Erastil was not so cool with women going adventuring. One of the characters in my Rise of the Runelords game was an awesome female halfling ranger, who was very devoted to Erastil. We had some great RP with her bucking the rest of the church (and even some Signs and Portents from Old Deadeye telling her to stay home). Eventually she became awesome and high level, and saved the world. The newer version of Erastil's writeup was released shortly after that campaign ended.
Now my home game's continuity is that she personally caused Erastil to change his views, and now he's much more OK with female adventurers going forward. There's no retcon in my group, Erastil is more good, and my player has an awesome story to tell of how she changed the setting for the better! :-D
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I am happy they retconed the beard thing in Taldor and the paladins of Asmodeus idea. In fact there are few(if any) retcons that I am unhappy to see.
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Let's not forget Wrath of the Righteous, pretty sure the Abyss isn't part of the Inner Sea, despite what Deskari claims. ;-)
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Gorbacz, I think you misunderstood what I was saying, to date, no AP has the entire adventure take place in a place outside the Inner Sea. As in every volume of the AP, wich is the entire adventure.
Thanks for answering that question shadram.
Did Golarion have a dragon's graveyard or was that retconned?
And we're unlikely to do an AP set entirely out of the Inner Say anytime soon, if ever, for reasons that I had thought were obvious—it's the core shared experience we're all building.
There is no "dragon's graveyard" on Golarion. Never was. Guardians of Dragonfall was not set on Golarion or ANY world in particular. As mentioned above, for 2 adventures, we tinkered with doing adventures that weren't set on specific worlds to see if setting them on Golarion was causing folks to not buy the modules. This decision was based on our experience with Dungeon Magazine, and hearing time and time and time again that GMs said they "couldn't use" an adventure that was set in Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms or another campaign setting because they didn't run a game in that particular setting. Which is flawed logic, as far as I can tell, since it's not really all that more difficult to run a Greyhawk or FR adventure in a homebrew than an adventure set in a generic world, and in fact, it is often HARDER to do so since there's no context for the adventure's proper nouns and that means you, the GM, have to come up with more backstory.
In any event, it very soon became obvious that not setting adventures in Golarion was a bad idea, because (as this thread evidences) people assumed they were set in Golarion anyway, so after Dragonfall (which incorporated several story elements that simply don't work with Golarion's themes, not the least of which are the assumptions about dragon life cycles and psychology) we went back to setting all our stuff on Golarion.
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Honestly, I think it may be misguided not to talk about it and hoping new people will just learn the new situation. Consider: There are people in various places on the net, discussing from memory, the various statistics of 1st edition AD&D monsters. Inconsistencies in very old modules. How recurring NPCs changed in the eighties. And so on. All in all, I trust you guys and your decisions, I merely think this might not work as you think. And I also don't think it's a big issue for most people if something is officially changed, just like rules errata.
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And Jade Regent has four.Reign of Winter has two such adventures, Legacy of Fire has one.It is not like there has been any APs were the entire adventure takes place outside of the Inner Sea.
Actually, Reign of Winter has four as well...
The Dancing Hut: Irrisen (Inner Sea Region)
Maiden, Mother, Crone: Iobaria Golarion (Goalrion, outside Inner Sea Region)
The Frozen Stars: Triaxus (off-world, but still in Golarion's solar system.)
Rasputin Must Die! Siberia, WWI-era Earth (off-world, in another star system)
The Witch Queen's Revenge: Entirely inside the Dancing Hut of Baba Yaga, which is essentially its own demiplane. The hut is still standing in Siberia.
Guardians of Dragonfall was not set on Golarion or ANY world in particular. As mentioned above, for 2 adventures, we tinkered with doing adventures that weren't set on specific worlds to see if setting them on Golarion was causing folks to not buy the modules.
Which is the other one?
Guardians of Dragonfall was not set on Golarion or ANY world in particular. As mentioned above, for 2 adventures, we tinkered with doing adventures that weren't set on specific worlds to see if setting them on Golarion was causing folks to not buy the modules.Which is the other one?
If I had to guess, TC 1; Into the Haunted Forest.
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If I had to guess, TC 1; Into the Haunted Forest.Guardians of Dragonfall was not set on Golarion or ANY world in particular. As mentioned above, for 2 adventures, we tinkered with doing adventures that weren't set on specific worlds to see if setting them on Golarion was causing folks to not buy the modules.Which is the other one?
Nope.
In fact, looking a bit more closely and doing some actual research rather than trusting memories that are almost a decade old, I think that this is the only one that really made it into print with the "world neutral" approach. I believe Crucible of Chaos MAY have been the other one, but we decided to draw that one into Golarion in the end anyway, even though at the time we were pretty coy/obscure about exactly WHERE on the world it was set.
And In fact, there ARE world specific elements in Dragonfall, now that I look at it. I think what probably happened was that we decided to abandon the world neutral approach to modules entirely, but AFTER we'd ordered a few adventures with that design goal. We then dovetailed them back into Golarion during devlopment, and Dragonfall looks like it probably happened at the last instant.
I do remember that for various reasons, many of which had to do with some of the implications of the encounters and world flavor and settings, that Dragonfall had a pretty harrowing and frightening bit of last-minute development panic attacks that may have involved someone calling Erik at 2:00 in the morning a few days before the adventure was to ship to the printer about the state of things. It's the closest we've ever come, again if I remember correctly, to canceling a product that was, essentially, in the can. So what I'm likely remembering is all of that rather than an actual "it was never set in Golarion."
In any event, by modern standards, it's not a part of Golarion canon.
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I was thinking about this thread earlier, and to a certain extent, I think that folks who rely upon the content of a pre-Pathfinder early-Golarion product are falling into some of the same traps someone might fall into by relying upon a set of encyclopedias published in 1960. It's the same world, yes, but today things are a LOT different, and what we thought we knew about the world back then and trusted enough to put into print in a big expensive color book is not something we'd put into the same book today, and in fact, some of that content from long ago is kind of embarrassing or even actionable by today's standards and society.
So... if all you're using as source material for Golarion is a book that was published over 10 years ago or before we made the switch to the Pathfinder RPG... just do so knowing that times have changed and we might no longer think there are canals on Mars, for example.
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Thanks for explaining in detail, James!
So are all the retcons mentioned so far from 3.5 material?
Are there any retcons from books that have been published in the last 3-4 years?
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The old Erastil stuff would date back to early actual Pathfinder (since it's from Kingmaker).
But Rivers Run Red is actually out of print now.
So it's about as outdated at the Kingmaker kingdom rules (which were revised in Ultimate Campaign).
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While this thread is kind of amusing, it's also kind of frustrating, because the more folks talk about these things, the longer they stay in the mind and the more traction they seem to gain, even over actual real content. It seems to me that everyone knows about Erastil and the inappropriate section in his writeup that made him misogynistic and that's what folks seem to always talk about, but no one ever seems to talk much about the REST of the deity, and I actually think he's a really cool and interesting deity with a lot going on. Of course... I did invent him about 30 or so years ago for my homebrew, and over the course of those 30 years he was always a god of community and family who treated all members equally, so it was doubly frustrating to see folks react in a way that was completely off base for the deity's character.
Furthermore... I'm also frustrated at the idea that these are "retcons" and not "errata." There's a weird disconnect RPG players have between a company fixing a rule that's broken ("Oh good, they fixed an error and now the game works better!") and fixing flavor that's broken ("What? They robbed content from my game!"). To a certain extent, that makes me MUCH more nervous about publishing non-rule information, because of this condition that once we publish non-rule content, folks seem to think it can never ever be changed. Despite the fact that it's just as easy to make an error designing a rule as it is designing flavor or fiction.
End rant.
Well, that's fiction for you—people take what they want. Once it's out and about, authorial intent doesn't matter as much as reader perception. And you know what? I think that's a normal and healthy consequence of releasing your personal homebrew content to the public. People take it and go wild with their own interpretations. Sure, most of them aren't "canon", but "canon" is just a word for the most commonly-accepted truth among many.
It's best to just accept that and enjoy the crazy, creative ideas that ensue.
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Honestly I think leaving flaws like sexism and racism out of good aligned deities is the right choice.
RPGs are a chance to take a break from the real world - having to deal with sexism in day to day life isn't a fantasy for me, its my real world experience. It's fine as an vague feature of a villain I get to have my character shoot at with a fireball (as I don't get to have that cathartic experience that in the real world), but "a member of the party I have to cooperate with thinks my gender is less capable because they worship Erastil, and I just have to put up with it because I have to work with them" is not something that adds any value to my escapist fantasy. It is just a sad reminder of a terrible part of my day to day life.
I would rather have my character face challenges that are a bit more novel to me, like having to fight a horde of undead or having to defend a village or fight a dragon. That stuff is fun. That isn't to say that you can't have social issues in RPGs, but it is more fun when there is an element of fantasy to them and they are a bit removed from the real world.
edit: this isn't to say that good aligned deities can't have flaws, just have them be more interesting ones like "disapproves of magic users", "is overly trusting" or "is rigid and inflexible in their pursuit of pacifism"
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I agree. The original version of Erastil IS correct... by which I mean the version I invented back in 1990 or thereabouts, who is not sexist. Thank you for agreeing. And in the meantime HUGS! Spread love, not hate!
Just wanted to express my absolute for this Rex, out here spreading love and hugs despite his physiological disadvantages in that respect. Such an inspiration. It just goes to show it's now about the size of your teeny-tiny saurian arms that matters, but what you do with them.
On a more serious note, I just wanted to say that I appreciated this thread's attempt (if not necessarily success) at creating a catalogue of lore corrections. Through I had already heard from other sources about the lore updates that actually matter to me with Erastil and elves (unilaterally approved), this thread was an interesting look at some of other unfortunate lore mistakes that still rattled around in my brain.
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Just wanted to express my absolute for this Rex, out here spreading love and hugs despite his physiological disadvantages in that respect. Such an inspiration. It just goes to show it's now about the size of your teeny-tiny saurian arms that matters, but what you do with them.
Awww thank you!
And yeah, I've long been frustrated that we don't have a good way to disseminate corrections to the lore. For rules, we have errata and folks seem to not only know where to get those corrections but actively thirst for it and are thankful when they get it. There's no such desire, it seems, for lore corrections, and more often than not us correcting a lore error makes people angry.
Just as you can house rule whatever you want in your game from the rules side (say, let wizards cast 9th level spells at 9th level, or let katanas have a damage die of 1d20), feel free to change the lore as you wish as well. But don't try to tell me that something is correct when I've said it's not.
Anyway... thankfully threads like this give me a place to air those corrections for folks to enjoy.
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There's no such desire, it seems, for lore corrections, and more often than not us correcting a lore error makes people angry.
Just as you can house rule whatever you want in your game from the rules side (say, let wizards cast 9th level spells at 9th level, or let katanas have a damage die of 1d20), feel free to change the lore as you wish as well. But don't try to tell me that something is correct when I've said it's not.
Anyway... thankfully threads like this give me a place to air those corrections for folks to enjoy.
I think the angriest people are always the ones reacting to anything that could be seen as bigoted being appropriately removed, and those people have an agenda of rage that is nothing to do with lore. See the post necroing this thread, for example.
See Erastil, Cult of the Dawnflower, etc, etc.
I appreciate you clarifying a more cohesive vision for Golarion in general, but I'm especially heartened when those corrections happen to remove gross implications and/or make people more welcome in Golarion and the Pathfinder community.
Angry people always shout loudest, but I suspect I'm far from alone in being very appreciative.