Let's collect retcons!


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Wayfinders

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I'd like to second that positivity! I genuinely love the lore of this world and improvements made to certain unfortunate elements of the lore are very much appreciated. Especially those changes that make the gameworld more inclusive and take care to help everyone keep comfortable.


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James Jacobs wrote:


The main reason I object to giving Erastil a flaw like this is that it makes it look like Paizo is saying "It's both lawful AND good to behave in this way." I have no problem at all with a lawful good non-deity character having this sort of flaw, but giving this specific flaw to the DEITY OF FAMILY AND COMMUNITY is an outright fundamental design error that flies in the face of what Paizo stands for AND Erastil's 30 year history—even if he's only been in print for a third of that time.

I get the idea of NOT wanting a Lawful GOOD deity, but I do think a Rural Lawful God of community has a place. Which is why I think changing Erastil to LN while keeping his flaw could have had a place.

But that is partially due to my experience with rural people.


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James Jacobs wrote:

I was thinking about this thread earlier, and to a certain extent, I think that folks who rely upon the content of a pre-Pathfinder early-Golarion product are falling into some of the same traps someone might fall into by relying upon a set of encyclopedias published in 1960. It's the same world, yes, but today things are a LOT different, and what we thought we knew about the world back then and trusted enough to put into print in a big expensive color book is not something we'd put into the same book today, and in fact, some of that content from long ago is kind of embarrassing or even actionable by today's standards and society.

So... if all you're using as source material for Golarion is a book that was published over 10 years ago or before we made the switch to the Pathfinder RPG... just do so knowing that times have changed and we might no longer think there are canals on Mars, for example.

This does bring up a few issues though, because there are books where a LOT of the info is ONLY from older books. Or as YOU put it

"falling into some of the same traps someone might fall into by relying upon a set of encyclopedias published in 1960"

Most (if not all) of the [Race] of Golarian books were published in the "pre-Pathfinder early-Golarion product" days. So while I agree that we should rely on the newest content. There are often instances where the earliest info books is still from THOSE EARLY DAYS!

For Comparison, Orcs of Golarion was published in 2010, while Belkzen, Hold of the Orc Hordes was written in 2015.

Goblins of Golarion was published in 2011, yet there has NOT been a new book for Goblins, even though Goblins are now a Core Race. GOBLINS NEED A NEW BOOK!

Sure, as a long time Paizo FAN BOY I am able to understand how Goblins have changed. Honestly one of the REASONS I LOVE THIS SETTING is because Goblins are NOT just a random evil race that you kill for XP! (I would also love to see this for Orcs FYI!)

But imagine if I wasn't a long time player, a person who hadn't been playing since the 3.5 days? I would not be aware of these gradual changes!

I guess my point is that I think that since there has been a LOT of new/updated/etc LORE for the Races/Ancestories/etc, we NEED NEW BOOKS!!! We can NOT rely on casual fans on doing deep dives on these forums to figure out how Gods/Ancestories/etc have changed. There needs to be new books that contain these updates!!!

Because when ever there is a conflict on HOW people interpreted LORE a very common response is "show me a quote/source/etc". Since Paizo/Golarion is different than Forgotten Realms/Eberron/etc, there needs to be sources that people can reference. The best sources for this kind of information is from a book. But for a LOT of this info, there isn't a clear "read X book" for this info source. A LOT of the information is buried in adventure paths, random books, FORUMS LIKE THESE etc.

IF you want to override old/outside LORE, you need to make it clear in a NEW LORE BOOK!

In the end, I am just arguing for NEW Setting Specific Lore Books!


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Edward the Necromancer wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

I was thinking about this thread earlier, and to a certain extent, I think that folks who rely upon the content of a pre-Pathfinder early-Golarion product are falling into some of the same traps someone might fall into by relying upon a set of encyclopedias published in 1960. It's the same world, yes, but today things are a LOT different, and what we thought we knew about the world back then and trusted enough to put into print in a big expensive color book is not something we'd put into the same book today, and in fact, some of that content from long ago is kind of embarrassing or even actionable by today's standards and society.

So... if all you're using as source material for Golarion is a book that was published over 10 years ago or before we made the switch to the Pathfinder RPG... just do so knowing that times have changed and we might no longer think there are canals on Mars, for example.

This does bring up a few issues though, because there are books where a LOT of the info is ONLY from older books. Or as YOU put it

"falling into some of the same traps someone might fall into by relying upon a set of encyclopedias published in 1960"

Most (if not all) of the [Race] of Golarian books were published in the "pre-Pathfinder early-Golarion product" days. So while I agree that we should rely on the newest content. There are often instances where the earliest info books is still from THOSE EARLY DAYS!

For Comparison, Orcs of Golarion was published in 2010, while Belkzen, Hold of the Orc Hordes was written in 2015.

Goblins of Golarion was published in 2011, yet there has NOT been a new book for Goblins, even though Goblins are now a Core Race. GOBLINS NEED A NEW BOOK!

Sure, as a long time Paizo FAN BOY I am able to understand how Goblins have changed. Honestly one of the REASONS I LOVE THIS SETTING is because Goblins are NOT just a random evil race that you kill for XP! (I would also love to see this for Orcs FYI!)

But imagine if I wasn't a...

The Ancestry Guide and the Mwangi Expanse hevaily explore Orc culture. And Orcs are certainly not just an evil race to be killed already. Just because there aren't specific books dedicated to Goblins or Orcs in 2e, doesn't mean that the lore isn't there. There are probably other examples, but even the just the basic lore on these ancestries where they come up as player options clearly express that they are more then just monsters and are instead unique people with varying cultures, ambitions, and identities.

Liberty's Edge

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I feel doing a Setting book on a specific Ancestry would do both the setting and the Ancestry a disservice, as it would give an impression of homogeneity that just isn't there.

Better IMO to have books about Organizations, Geographical areas, even Deities, which have a real homogeneity and where you go for the details. And where you can highlight specific Ancestries within the context of the book's topic.


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Yeah, the thing about a setting book on Ancestry is that if you write a book about like elves, then you have to talk about Elves in Avistan, Garund, Casmaron, Arcadia, Tian Xia, the Darklands, on their home planet, etc. Which is just an enormous amount of content to cover and it would be weird if Elves who have absolutely no interaction with or knowledge of each other have a lot in common.

Since cultures are generally more shaped by the conditions they live in and their history than their biology, it makes much more sense to just talk about ancestries in the context of "the people who live in this place" than anything else.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

In the original publication of Rise of the Runelords, the Seven Thassilonian Virtues of Rule which the Runelords corrupted into the Seven (Deadly) Sins that power their magic were described essentially as more 'moderate' version of the same impulse as the sin they became, and were also to an extent held as 'virtuous' less in a strictly moral sense, and more that these were conditions a good ruler would create in their nation--i.e., the concept which the likes of Karzoug would eventually pervert into 'Greed' was originally about a ruler's duty to build the wealth of the nation. Later information about Thassilon instead made the Seven Virtues the direct opposites of the Seven Sins.

Dark Archive

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Whilst on the subject of runelords not 100% sure it would be classed as a retcon per say but the whole deal with sorshen in return of (Since everything we had gotten up to that point was completly diffrent to what we actually got.


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A character's personality and outlook changing after like 9000 years of self-reflection is not a retcon.

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