I missed a couple of my Saturday games when they wrapped up the last campaign and started the new one we had been talking about.
I need to build a 4th level character, 20 points for stats, and, for story reasons, I am required to build a non-core race (Hobgoblin, naturally).
The game is ‘Pathfinder in Space’ and the set-up and first game have occurred.
Since I had been talking about trying Kineticist, I was told that’s what they figured I would run.
Then they said the only position that was left on the crew was head gunner (sort of like how Kingmaker does positions, the ship has crew positions), unless I want to back up one of the other players in their position (I don’t).
I’ve been looking and it seems like Void is the most appropriate element form for a space born hobgoblin, even though it’s limited.
I am thinking about a dip into Gunslinger for Engineering, guns, and story line.
TL/DR
I need advice for a 20 point build for a 4th level Hobgoblin (1 additional bonus feat at 1st level, 2 traits allowed), in a pathfinder in space game, using Kineticist (Void) and including Gunslinger (or something), aiming to include siege weapons.
Position on crew will be Master Gunner.
Books are open to what’s on the PRD or Archives of Nethys.
Help!
Both classes are new to me.
Well, the first thing I will say is that voidborn are great but Xenos scum is a terrible idea! You should be Imperium!
Okay seriousness aside, I'll be straight, a void kineticist is a horrible gunner. Nothing in the class helps you gun or even use siege weapons at all. You would be totally reliant on Dex and 3/4th BAB. Neither does gunslinger play well with Kineticist unless you happen to have a gun enchanted with the Conductive quality. The first thing you should do right now is ask your GM if he will allow the guns to possess Conductive. Otherwise, you will be a pretty poor build at everything.
The good news is that void kineticist is amazing in a space game! You can in fact get out and push no space suit required. Depending on how good your guns on the ship it could litterally be more effective to roll down a window and use your kinetic blast. (If you have the numbers for ship mounted weapons that would help judge.)
When I wake up I'll crunch numbers for a build for you.
Okay, firs thing first. I double checked with my guide and the gunslinger base class. What I thought was right, the gunslinger is useless to you. If your GM is being normal, than guns are a martial weapon and as such take a dip in another martial class. (Such as Divine Hunter Paladin.) Almost any other class would be better. The benefits of Siege Gunner are only things that hopefully your GM won't have you deal with anyways.
If they are not being normal, I hate to say take Exotic Weapon Proficiency... but... take Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Seriously. Just, don't gimp yourself by wasting class levels on anything with guns. Off the top of my head I can't think of a single Martial worth it other than Picaroon swashbuckler which only gives one-handed firearms. Just, don't do it. If your GM is super nice you already have firearms with simple weapons.
Honestly, backing up someone in another position might be worth. Because Void Kineticist is really, really fun in a space game. Seriously, you spend your lvl 4 wild talent on No Breath which while normally just a meh thing becomes amazing on a ship.
Now that that's settled, here's some point buys!
MORE DAKKA!!!
Str 7 - Dex 17+2 Racial+1 Level Up (20) - Con 18+2 Racial (20) - Int 7 (Or 8) - Wis 12 (Or 10) - Cha 7
MAXIMUM OPTIMIZATION. I WANT IT NOW. If it doesn't involve shooting things with Kinetic Blasts, you don't care!
Mr. Safe
Str 7 - Dex 16+2 Racial (18) - Con 17+2 Racial+1 Level Up (20) - Int 10 - Wis 14 - Cha 7
At the cost of a +1 to hit and AC you have +2 skill points and +1 will saves. Well aren't you fun at parties Mr. I have Mental Ability Scores?
King Con
Str 7 - Dex 16+2 Racial (18) - Con 18+2 Racial+1 Level Up (21) - Int 7 (Or 8 or 10) - Wis 14 (Or 13 or 11 < Not advised for just +1 skill point) - Cha 7
This build is all about one thing, your Con score. You can't level that up just yet so there is no immediate benefit, but you are prepared for that lvl 8 future where you can.
A note here; if you're playing a game in space, the campaign is clearly 'guns anywhere', which would mean you get Gun Training at 1st level, and because of that, I'd actually suggest going GS 1 to nab that and get your dex to damage, everything after that I agree with Mort about.
Ah, my bad. I didn't check out that rule set. That's really good then even if I dislike mixing the classes.
I did not ask if it's guns anywhere or not.
I will ask.
If not, Siege Engineer needs proficiency with a siege weapon (which proficiency guns would give for cannons) and ranks in K:Engineering.
Any good way to get them other than a dip?
I do want to contribute to the team.
And I like the idea of a cigar chomping Hobgoblin gunner on a starship powered by mixed magic and science.
As there about 8 or 9 people in the party, I don't really need to be massively efficient with my build.
From memory, the is a human alchemist, an android unchained rogue, a dwarven cleric, a Grey with no class levels (aiming for mesmerist), a human magus, and 2 or 3 others.
edit: No, guns require exotic weapons proficiency for this setting, as the GM doesn't want all the players carrying guns.
But he liked the idea of using Void.
That cleans up choosing class levels and I don't have to squeeze in Gunslinger.
I'll just need an Int bonus and the K:Engineering skill to contribute to the gunner position.
Neither of which help with Kineticist.
I would still ask about the gun's damage and any magical qualities. Kineticists can, in theory, be better turrets than any mundane gun at a high enough level.
And again, I would stick with Exotic Weapon Proficiency over gunslinger, you just loose too much.
That cleans up choosing class levels and I don't have to squeeze in Gunslinger.
I'll just need an Int bonus and the K:Engineering skill to contribute to the gunner position.
Neither of which help with Kineticist.
Actually, that's not strictly true. Void Kineticist doesn't help. But Aether can take Skilled Kineticist for half their levels to Knowledge (engineering). Aether and expanded element Void are also a fantastic combo besides the fact you lack a really good composite blast.
Pure Void is better for pure blasting though. It gives you an amazing composite which can make you into a living turret. I would still go Aether and Void all day every day for what all amazing things you can do when not blasting, but that's me.
Also, may I ask why you need Int? Besides Knowledge buff.
EDIT: If you really need Int. badly you can swap Wis. with Int. on the Mr. Safe build.
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Personally I think void's a generally poor initial element (without KOP support), but what you could do if you wanted to keep the gun flavor is get an entirely non functioning gun and start Aether.
Then, all you do is use telekinetic blast to fire bullets out of the barrel of the gun (ask your GM on this just in case they have a problem), you can reload it if you feel like to go for that feel or work something else out, and you've got the feel of a gunslinger with an entirely non functional gun, which to me is hilarious. Take void at 7th and you've got yourself one hell of a positioning specialist with an amusing gimmick.
Shiroi, I found a description of Mover on N. Jolly's thread that looks like what I want.
Thanks.
I like void/aether/void for the No Breathe and blasts from void and then TK from aether.
Having No Breathe to start will help as our ship (a recovered Forbidden Planet style explorer) has problems with holding air pressure.
N. Jolly, I'm thinking that once I have added aether, I'll take Kinetic Blade and use a busted blunderbuss to bash people with (at least until Kinetic Whip becomes available) or 'shoot' from it with blasts.
I'll worry about guns when the crew has some.
And getting a gun with conductive after that.
I can fill the Gunner position on the ship's crew by having K:Engineering and having an Int bonus.
Actually being able to use a siege weapon (having the feat) can wait until one is available.
For Traits, I was thinking of taking Awakened from Stasis (as thematic) and either Reactionary or one of the Will save bonus ones.
I considered a trait to give me K:Engineering as a class skill, but that may be giving it too much focus.
I'll lead the gunnery crew by example when I'm blasting.
Could someone explain Draining Infusion to me?
You spend 1 Burn, can now only affect creatures with your blast's element, hit vs touch AC, give it a Fort save for 1/4 damage, get to ignore DR, resistances and immunities, and get to reduce the cost of one blast before the end of your next turn by the 1 burn you spent to do this.
Wha?
I can see the use of the touch AC (sometimes) and like the ignoring bit, but still, wha?
Also, for my guy, what creature has the aether, gravity, or negative energy sub-type?
Unless this means I can damage undead with my neg. energy blasts.
I can fill the Gunner position on the ship's crew by having K:Engineering and having an Int bonus.
My point was you don't really NEED an Int. bonus. You just need a decent Know' Engie score.
As for the focus on Know' Engie, the bonus from a class skill will be better than having a Int. Bonus. And again, once of the kinks of Kineticists is each element gives you 2 class skills. The class skills for Aether include Knowledge (engineering) and Sleight of Hand.
The Skilled Kineticist Utility Wild Talent then gives you 1/2 your Kineticist level (+2 now, far more later) to both your class skills.
As a result, if you start Aether instead of starting Void you get it as both a class skill and a +2 from a Utility. That's a total of +5 (growing) vs possibly building a +2 Int. score if you start void. In addition to which Aether has the better defensive wild talent. It kinda sucks but you can't get No Breath until level 10, but you should be really relevant until then.
In general, I never worry about a score for one skill. A single skill focus can get me +3/6 to any skill and there exist specialized feats for +2/4 to two skills. Would I pay 1 feat for a +2 to key scores? Well, yes, all day every day.
Awakened from Stasis is one of the most powerful traits as a Kineticist. Because your limits are your burn, Awakened from Stasis refreshes you incredibly quickly. Aces OP OP.
Draining Infusion is for use against Elementals and the like, but you don't have to pay 1 burn. It's usually reduced by infusion specialization and gather power.
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I haven't yet read that fancy kine-sumthin' class you guys are talking about (have the book; will get to it...) however my understanding from the OP's first post is that he's shooting for (no pun intended) a Master Gunner type character; if so, I don't think you can beat the Siege Gunner archetype for Gunslinger (straight gunslinger; no multiclassing for max damage).
I'm playing one in Skulls and Shackles and well, it's just amazing. Sometimes the enemy Captain is dead before you board their ship. Fight over before it's starts, thanks to the Targeted Blast class feature. Not sure how this would play out in space but the principles are the same I think. Siege Gunner gives you a ridiculously high Know:Eng score... and you end up proficient in all Siege Engines for free (no need to meet the prereqs for the bonus Siege Engineer and Master Siege Engineer feats you get... it's awesome)
If I were you, I'd just do feats to make you competent as a gunner (not gunslinger, necessarily, but gunner) and then stick to void kineticist the whole way through. You'll likely have a high enough Dex to get by anyway, and with that bonus feat you can take Exotic Weapon Prof for 1 Siege Engine and a Gun if you really feel like it, to round out your weapons. Then take feats that can be beneficial to both, such as Point-Blank and Precise shot.
Though, if you really want to have some fun, look into traits that can boost bluff (Maybe making it a Class Skill?) and carry around a useless piece of junk that's gun-shaped that you claim is a powerful weapon, one that disrupts gravity. If they call you a liar, turn a knob on it, then hit them with your blast. It's from psychic energy, so it shouldn't require physical movement. Just point and pretend to shoot. Then invest the feats for the actual Siege Engines, ideally one at the beginning so you're competent, then Siege Engineer at 5, assuming you put ranks into Knowledge Engineering. Everything from that point on should be just to build a normal Kineticist.
As for that Trait, both Unpredictability and Convincing Liar would make it a class skill (Signature Move is mighty tempting for the flavor, if going with the junky gun, though the price may be a bit too high on a blaster to make it work.) Taking either of the former making Bluff a class skill and investing ranks in it will give you a +8 at level 4, which isn't too bad, and is before you add your Charisma modifier (which I'd make a +1 if you have leftover points after the build).
Going down that road opens a few fun options, plus gives a variety of positives:
1) Siege Engine is something you can make work
2) It hides the fact that you're a Kineticist, which may work to your advantage
3) Who doesn't love a good bluff?
4) The hit you take to being a Kinteticist is very minor, if non-existant, given that they dont really rely on feats too heavily.
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I didn't buy OA for the classes, but for... other stuff (sorry I have players on these boards.. hehehe)
I'm just wondering why there seems to be a preference for kineticist for this... Gunslinger (Siege Gunner) is clearly the natural winner for a "Master Gunner" officer onboard a (star)ship...
Just add the Eldritch template to your hobgoblin to give him Starflight (in case of hull breach) and you're golden...
I didn't buy OA for the classes, but for... other stuff (sorry I have players on these boards.. hehehe)
I'm just wondering why there seems to be a preference for kineticist for this... Gunslinger (Siege Gunner) is clearly the natural winner for a "Master Gunner" officer onboard a (star)ship...
Just add the Eldritch template to your hobgoblin to give him Starflight (in case of hull breach) and you're golden...
Well, to be honest I'm extremely unimpressed with the Siege Gunner. I know N. Jolly basically considers the Gunslinger a lvl 5 dip class, and I fail to see the benefit of Siege Gunner. Obviously, the damage dice on shipboard weapons matter a lot here, but it's feasible getting out and shooting yourself as Kineticist is the superior option. You are unlikely to get hit in a space battle, so why not bust the bank on burn? It's a quicker and more reliable weapon without kinky interactions. At 11th you are rolling 6d8+6+Con a round at everything within 480 feet.
I would also imagine templates are straight out if you can't get guns easily.
Really, we are talking about an extremely favorably class for space games in general and a meh class for space games that can be emulated with feats and eventually would dip out of and just level a normal martial path. Neither stack together.
I hate the tier system with a passion, but for a space game I think one could argue the Void/Aether combo is on par with a Tier 2 class because you have a lot of normally situational options that become extremely good. Pseudo-flight, Telekinesis, No Breath. You're basically a walking starfighter that can open the airlock from the other side of the room and drift around without fear. Gunslingers are Tier 4, possibly 5.
I just don't really see the comparison. Siege Gunner doesn't do significantly more than a Kineticist spending bonus feats on Siege Engie and can do so while matching the Siege Gunner on ranks. Why bother?
I didn't buy OA for the classes, but for... other stuff (sorry I have players on these boards.. hehehe)
I'm just wondering why there seems to be a preference for kineticist for this... Gunslinger (Siege Gunner) is clearly the natural winner for a "Master Gunner" officer onboard a (star)ship...
Just add the Eldritch template to your hobgoblin to give him Starflight (in case of hull breach) and you're golden...
Well he said in the first post he wanted to try to find a way to make Kineticist (the class he'd been expressing interest in) and gunslinger (the class that worked well with the job he was given on the ship) work. Thus my suggestion of feats for Gunner, Kineticist for progression, and pretend to wield a terrifying gravity gun while really just being a kineticist.
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Not going to analyze this to death, but the damage listed above for 11th level character is... not impressive. I average about 75dmg a round with my siege gunner and that damage applies to everyone in a 30-foot cone via dragon pistols. I regularly mop the floor of most encounters by round 3 or 4, as it's easy as pie to hit touch AC (so my deadly aim is always on, plus dex to damage, plus my gunslinger level to damage; i have 6 grit points so I've never run out of those - the high kill count ensures regular refills, and for the one or three times i did, switching to my double barreled musket and double tapping usually settled things nicely)
Not going to analyze this to death, but the damage listed above for 11th level character is... not impressive. I average about 75dmg a round with my siege gunner and that damage applies to everyone in a 30-foot cone via dragon pistols. I regularly mop the floor of most encounters by round 3 or 4, as it's easy as pie to hit touch AC (so my deadly aim is always on, plus dex to damage, plus my gunslinger level to damage; i have 6 grit points so I've never run out of those - the high kill count ensures regular refills, and for the one or three times i did, switching to my double barreled musket and double tapping usually settled things nicely)
Meh. Two problem:
That was the absolute minimum. I was far from counting up all the other things you can add like Empowered. Because I was lazy posting I even forgot Elemental Overflow which is 2/3 level to damage.
I was taking the comparison to siege weapons (which are garbage). Against mobs you should be rolling suffocation and unable to attack or breath. Foe Throw. Singulatity. Ect. ...how much do those pistols do at 480?
EDIT: No one take this as scripture on what a properly build blasting Kineticist can do. I am giving the facts for an extremely weak at blasting, but great at tearing off nessicary ship parts with their mind, Kineticist. A DAMAGE IS ALL I LIVE FOR Kineticist does a loooot more.
Just curious, Cornelius, did you make a decision?
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If you were to make room for three levels of Fighter (Trench Fighter/Crossbowman + Eldritch Guardian) you can grab a large ranged weapon and have your familiar help you use it with Artillery Team.
This, Sir, is very freaggin' sweet.
***Edit: this combo requires a mobile platform such as a flying carpet, due to the nagging 'can't act on the same initiative' clause, as it will result in the team unable to make move actions and shoot. Also, there's some weirdness at work here: if the familiar is the reloader, the PC is the shooter, which means that you can't fire at full BAB as the team 'can't act in the same initiative'. Sounds like an Errata is required for this otherwise very cool feat...***
Familiar must be size small and able to manipulate ammo and reloading (have hands, methinks). What is your suggestion for best familiar? Imps always look cool, but they have multiversial... ramifications through association! ;)
I love the Pooka, but unfortunately it's Tiny (wondering if there's an item that would let it be one step bigger like a permanent enlarge person...)
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how much do those pistols do at 480?
Pistols do squat at long range, but for ship to ship combat I switch to distance double hackbutt or distance double-barreled (db) musket (range is 100 for hackbutt and 80 for db musket, but db musket is a better investement at level 9 as it's more mobile). If there's a LOT of targets, I will use liquid ice or alchemist fire heavy catapult shot and add gunslinger_level to damage to TWO targets within the blast (on top of the blast damage and effect from the payload) using the Targeted Blast deed (remember that Siege Gunner archetype gets both Siege Engineer and Master Siege Engineer for free, so with a crew you can shoot and load the heavy catapult each round).
With the double hackbutt and db musket you can still strike vs. Touch AC with Far-reaching Sight but it's a full round action to make a ONE shot (still, with Deadly Aim, Dex to dmg, etc. you can get a nice softening damage before you switch to pistols when they close in). You can shoot at five range increments with early firearms so 500 feet for double hackbutt (2d12+dex+DA+magic), and 400 feet for db musket (1d12+++ or 2d12+++ if you double tap with -4 to hit).
EDIT: No one take this as scripture on what a properly build blasting Kineticist can do. I am giving the facts for an extremely weak at blasting, but great at tearing off nessicary ship parts with their mind, Kineticist. A DAMAGE IS ALL I LIVE FOR Kineticist does a loooot more.
Yes it sounds like a pretty solid concept. I wouldn't restrict this guy as a "Master Gunner" or force him to even deal with gun crews at all though... he's more of a solo act or weapon in his own right. Depends on what roleplay feel you're going for: leader of men type officer or magical dude floating in space and tearing stuff down. Both have their pros and cons, and both tend to be a target of choice from enemy starships! (so don't dump on your AC with any of those builds)
Edit: for anyone going for a less magical option, like a gunslinger, straight fighter or even barbarian, for *space* adventures, it sounds like the Eldritch template with Starflight option is extremely good, for those moments you'll experience hull beach or must jump across to another ship! ;)
Cornelius, did you make a decision?
Yes, I did.
I will be running a straight Kineticist, going void/aether/void.For the early levels, I will have an ability from Void that lets me no longer breathe and exist in vacuum.
To fill the gunner position, I will add a feat for a siege weapon and leadership for crew, then get more advanced siege weapon feats, if necessary.
I spoke to the GM and he is not planning on making guns easily accessible.
He's going for more of a boarding raider feel than full on banks of cannon.
No guns, means no gunfighters, even siege gunner.
Thanks for all the help, folks.
edit: we're doing space by feel, with some of the characters coming from Golarian, some from the planets, and some are displaced gamers from earth, somehow 'translated' to the campaign.
We have scavenged a semi-working ship from the local wrecks.
We have a Buck Rogers style rocket, powered partially by magic and containing clockwork construct systems.
Our other choices were a undead crewed standard Captain Hook ship or a living, sea-shell looking ship, with fully organic systems.
No weapons past hand weapons as yet and we need to get to a nearby world to get the ship running better.
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He's going for more of a boarding raider feel than full on banks of cannon.
Then disregard anything that has to do with siege weapons. Those feats will be an absolute waste. Use leadership to get Your Own, Personal, Jesus err... cleric, or don't take Leadership at all.
Even in Skulls and Shackles, which has a heavy ship to ship combat component, boarding is preferred 90% of the time so that you can retain the captured ship's value (and its crew for slaves, so mass casualties not really encouraged)
Master Gunner just needs to be a guy that shouts "Fire!" to a bunch of low-level ineffectual Marines manning ballistaes until the two ships are side-by-side... plus, if you're going void fly in the sky menace, you won't be on the ship anyway... so you're Master Gunner title will be largely honorific and the actually gunning will be done by your second in command (we have colorful names for those red shirts in our Skulls and Shackles campaign... LOL)
Cheers, and I hope you have fun with this!
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Get an air bubble on a black powder cannon and its still useable in space, its a good place to start at least.
Dryload Powder Horn is good until you fire, then disappears until you reload (with regular loading time)
If you're worried about loading times (i.e. pistol with full BAB attacks) then use Dry Load Alchemical Cartridges... however at 30gp per shot you might want to suggest to take the fight "inside" the ship instead of "taking it outside" :)
you get to make great use as the "EVA guy"
Yep, EVA guy is actually the plan.
It seems the away-boat-captain/pilot wasn't on the crew list until I asked who was doing it.So I'm taking the job.
(It'll give me a chance to try the driving rules, though I haven't been told what skill will be used to pilot it.)
The other players got ahold of an away boat.
Some sort of rocket, with lots of air leaks and a saddle/driver's seat behind the boarding hatch.
It doesn't match the ship (but it's engine works better), though it's much smaller.