From what I understand, Slayer is the undisputed TWF master now, thanks to their ability to gain the Ranger Combat Style on top of gaining Sneak Attack - meaning they can drop their Dex pretty low and boost their Strength. Lots of dice rolling and lots of modifiers equals lots of damage.
I put a lot of thought into building TWF Samurais recently so I can give you some input.
Assuming a 20 point buy it is possible to build STR based TWF with dual trained human or with Dwarf. Dwarf has some issues mustering an array but at level 13 the Dwarf FCB lets it pull ahead DPR wise as it provides you +6 damage vs. challenged foes.
As to orders I highly recommend Order of the Dragon or Order of the Green for an always on to hit bonus. These will skyrocket your DPR in comparison to any other TWF.
Dwarf 20 pt buy
STR 16 DEX 16 CON 14 INT 10 WIS 14 CHA 5
Dual Talent Human
STR 18 DEX 17 CON 14 INT 8 WIS 12 CHA 8
Important feats include TWF up to ITWF, Chain Challenge, Double Slice, Weapon Focus and Specialization, possibly power attack and stuff to boost your will save.
At level 13 you could begin with 2 agile wakizashis so DEX based might be better I'd definetly go with Dwarf then.
STR 10 DEX 18 CON 14 INT 10 WIS 16 CHA 5
1 Finesse
3 TWF
5 WF
6 ITWF
7 WSpec
9 Chain challenge
11 Double Slice
12 Imp Critical
13 ???
You can prolly skip weapon Focus and specialization to pick up some save boosters (Steel Soul or Iron Will) in combination with Resolve that should keep you fighting for a long time.
The way I do Samurai (built to lvl 13 as requested);
8 levels of Sohei Monk + 5 levels of Samurai.
Take Weapon Training for polearms and Weapon Expertise for the naganata. Flurry of Blows serves as defacto Two Weapon fighting, but uses higher damage dice than TWF options. Grab some Gloves of Dueling to increase your Weapon Training bonus to +3, and strap a Champions Banner to your naganata to do Challange damage of a Samurai your level -1.
From there I recommend the feat Punishing Kick, This feat will allow you to maintain reach when your foes want to get up close.
If you can afford it, you can forge a Blade of the Sword-Saint for more Samurai flavor. wield this one handed, with your naganata in the other, to retain Challange bonuses.
As this outline requires little feats, and gives numerous bonus feats, you can add in other suggestions to make an interesting build, without wasting time buying TWF. Also, as Samurai have an effective Fighter level you can purchace Advanced Weapon Training as a feat.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What is everyone here smoking. Slayer? Sohei?
Samurai is perfect for TWF. Here are the requirements for a class to be good at TWF:
- Lots of static damage.
- Uses weapons.
- Lots of static damage.
What's Challenge? Lots of static damage. End of discussion.
Here's a build for a Human:
S14 D15+2 C14 I8 W10 CH14
Traits: Irrepressible, Spirit Animal [Woolly Rhinoceros] (Boosting Will)
LV1. Weapon Finesse (Not necessary, but I assume you won't have magic items to pump STR over DEX and still qualify for TWF feats), H: TWF, Order: Order of the Sword (Free attack bonus, free Mounted Combat, can add CHA to attack once a day...)
LV2. O: +2 Will (Boosting Will)
LV3. Power Attack, Weapon Expertise: Wakizashi
LV4. +1 DEX
LV5. Double Slice
LV6. B: ITWF
LV7. Chain Challenge (With a +2 CHA bonus baseline, you should be able to Challenge every enemy in a fight, usually.)
LV8. +1 DEX, O: Mounted Combat
LV9. Trick Riding (Prerequisite, but kind of nifty. You'll probably use light armor due to high DEX mod anyway.)
LV11. Two-Weapon Rend (The reason why builds that dump STR suck.)
LV12. +1 DEX, B: Improved Critical (Wakizashi)
LV13. Critical Focus
LV15. Mounted Skirmisher (The reason why we go Samurai! Full attacks while moving around the battlefield.)
LV16. +1 DEX
LV17. Greater TWF (Trash feat. I'd rather take Iron Will.)
LV18. B: Staggering Critical
LV19. Stunning Critical (All enemies you crit against will be staggered. Wtih two Wakizashi, that's very likely. This is your best defense.)
LV20. +1 DEX
From what I understand, Slayer is the undisputed TWF master now, thanks to their ability to gain the Ranger Combat Style on top of gaining Sneak Attack - meaning they can drop their Dex pretty low and boost their Strength. Lots of dice rolling and lots of modifiers equals lots of damage.How does it fare if it can't rely on Sneak Attack? I'm just really biased against SA because so many things can be immune to them, not to mention you have to find a way to be able to perform the SA in the first place.
There really aren't very many things immune to sneak attack. The positioning requirement is the actual problem. Luckily the slayer still does great damage without SA. Think of SA as more of a happy little bonus, than a requirement.
Why are you still talking about slayers.
This thread is about crit-happy, mounted skirmishing, chain challenging TWF samurai whirlwinds of death.
Slayers are reliant on standing still, have no ability to go nova, and as far as I can tell, are not g&+%%@n samurai.
Also, if you think another class is better suited for TWF, do chime in.
This is why Slayers are still being mentioned :)
Samurai does not.
The Sohei does though, as of level 6.
BTW Secret Wizard, depending on how your GM reads the Sohei Bonus Feat ability, you can take Mounted Skirmisher from level 1.
Also, the Sohei/Samurai can everything your build can do, with the exception to Two Weapon Rend, without wasting time on buying TWF.
BTW Secret Wizard, depending on how your GM reads the Sohei Bonus Feat ability, you can take Mounted Skirmisher from level 1.
Oh, great, I was just having some wine, thanks for the cheese.
Let's see what Slayers get:
Studied Combat: Gives 1/2 the bonus to hit and damage of Ranger's Favored Enemy.
Sneak Attack: Increases by 1d6 every 3 levels.
Combat Style Feats: Lets you take TWF without meeting prerequisites. You get 5 of them over 20 levels.
Full BAB: Good stuff.Sounds pretty solid to me. You can take Accomplished Sneak Attacker to tag on some extra Sneak Attack damage if you're feeling up for it.
Basically, you get Sneak Attack bonuses like both a Rogue, get extra static hit/damage like a Fighter, and can ignore the prerequisites for TWFing like a Ranger.
Let's see what Samurai get:
Challenge: Gives +level damage, which is nothing to sneeze at.
Order Ability: Varies.
Fighter Training: Lets you take Fighter feats and Advanced Weapon Training (assuming you take more feats).
Bonus Feats: You get 3 of them over 20 levels.
Weapon Proficiencies: Gives you the hands-down best crit range TWF weapons (Katana and Wakizashi).
Full BAB: Good stuff.Slayers can go all day, every day, and will have fewer accuracy and stat distribution problems than Samurai will. Samurai will have higher damage dice or crit range, higher single-target damage, and better armor.
Just putting this out there: The Samurai's Weapon Expertise class feature is NOT Fighter Weapon Training and would not qualify you for Advanced Weapon Training. It only says that you count as a fighter for fighter-related feats.
If the GM would actually stick to the rules, he'd note there's no such thing as a mounted combat feat, as there is no tag for that kind of feat as there are Combat or Grit tags.
I said possibly, depending on GM ruling. Ask them first.
If the GM would actually stick to the rules, he'd note there's no such thing as a mounted combat feat, as there is no tag for that kind of feat as there are Combat or Grit tags.
So Paizo wrote that line for fun? It's pretty clear what the Devs mean, the only question is whether prereqs are required.
If the GM would actually stick to the rules, he'd note there's no such thing as a mounted combat feat, as there is no tag for that kind of feat as there are Combat or Grit tags.Which means we either need an errata or an FAQ: What feats count as Mounted Combat feats for a Sohei? If Mounted Combat feats are feats with Mounted Combat a as a prerequisite, including the Mounted Combat feat, does this mean a Sohei can select Mounted Skirmisher at level 1?
We 100% do.
Lets move on - the GM of the poster can decide what ruling he wants to follow.
I feel the same way on mounted builds; eventually you have to get off the mount, and the local barkeep probably doesn't like you bringing your hrose/dog in.
One of the great things about the Sohei is that they spend Ki Points to give their mount abilitys when needed, rather than investing too many feats into making them combat viable.
Concider Undersized Mount for more freedom in race choices.
Actually, Undersized Mount actually does nothing. You are not limited by mount size.
If you so wanted, you could use a medium mount. You just need it to be able to hold your weight.
That's an actual, honest to god, 100% does nothing feat.
A better solution would perhaps be to pick up Monstrous Mount as the feat and get a worg mount.
If you go with a Small race, I HEAVILY recommend Monkey Goblin or Orang Penak.
Totally forgot about that!
My Sohei 8 / Samurai 5 build effectively gives TWF, Improved TWF and Double Slice without the feat investment and does comparable damage on a Challange. Since Samurai have an effective Fighter level, you can further boost raw damage with Weapon Specialization feats.
If you want to fight with a katana rather than naganata the Blade of Sword-Saint works with Flurry, in which case Sohei 4 might be suffiecnt (Monastic Mount is worth it) using Boon Companion to keep your Mounts level up. This will sacrifice one of your itteratives though.
I'm still looking into things, but I'm struggling with the straight up Samurai build thus far. I guess I'm running into the issue that everyone other than Fighters eventually run into, which is that TWF is very feat intensive. Not giving up yet, but might just switch to going back to boring old 2H weapon (katana, I guess), and see if I can make a deadly Samurai.
If you go two handed build for Naginata and Katana. Choose Katana with your weapon Expertise so you can draw it as a free action once someone closes with you. This combo actually even makes the Jaijitsu Strike ability semi worth while. A Two Handed Samurai will deal roughly 25% less damage on a full attack but 30% or so more damage on a standard action. Potion Glutton or Fast Drinker are strong choices for a two hander. Combat Reflexes is good for Naginata.
I don't really see TWF as being all that feat intensive. You need TWF, ITWF and Double Slice everything else is just gravy...besides that there's two other must have feats in Chain Challenge and Improved Critical. You also should look to invest at least 1 feat and one trait into boosting will saves and being a Dwarf helps here.
Also I wouldn't boost CHA to 14 only for Chain Challenge the difference between 5 and 14 is one extra use per combat.
I can tell you that Dwarf will do better damage than human due to the FCB however if you want to play from level 1 onwards Human might be easier as it gets it's feats online earlier or via Dual Talent you can get STR 18 DEX 16 off the bat.
I wouldn't concern myself too much with AC as you want to be wearing heavy armor. Another reason to play a Dwarf as they are faster in heavy armor than humans.
If you are feeling feat starved make those Wakizashi's +2 keen and save yourself improved critical.
Dwarves are actually the same speed as Humans in armor, with the exception of Stone plate.
Everything else you said is bang on though.
Dwarves are actually the same speed as Humans in armor, with the exception of Stone plate.
Everything else you said is bang on though.
Hmm quite true...Guess I always only looked at the bottom row on the Heavy Armor Table and it says 15 but that only applies to Stoneplate!
I'd probably go with Tatami-do if you have 17 DEX, and if you get 18 DEX, I'd use a mithral O-yoroi.
Again, Sohei can't actually take any mounted feats because they don't exist. A combat feat has the (Combat) denotation. A metamagic feat has the (Metamagic) denotation.
There's no denotation for what constitutes a mounted combat feat and thus it is fully, 100% up to the GM to decide whether that is a humongous level of cheese or not.
Secret Wizard that is how you would rule in your game; we don't all play by your rules. There is currently no official ruling.
You've said your piece, move on. Lets not turn this thread into an exausting debate; there are better places to do it (like the FAQ thread you revived).