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| 43 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hello all!
Question:
I saw this question asked a few times, but I haven't been able to find an answer, official or otherwise. It doesn't seem to specify that you can still take the traditional monk bonus feats, or that you don't need to meet the prerequisites for the mounted combat feats, or what mounted combat feats are. I would assume any feat that Mounted Combat is a prerequisite for could cover the last bit, but that doesn't answer the first 2. Any thoughts? FAQ candidate maybe?
Super strictly speaking: Sohei doesn't say it gives you bonus feats, just what you can select. [yes, this is silly - just getting it out of the way.]
Strictly speaking: It appears to replace the monk bonus feat class feature (just leaving the chart - and thus when they get them - intact).
Realistically speaking: The entry is a bit too short to really be considered a full replacement, as opposed to a space-saving thing. It doesn't say "also select", which slightly leads towards selecting only mounted feats.
Loosely speaking: Taking a queue from "Cards do what they say", the ability doesn't mention any sort of replacement, so seems to be a pure addition to the monk options. Thus all monk choices, plus mounted combat choices, none with prereqs.
Thread consensus previously was you're good to go as far as pre-reqs go, but this seems unintended to me.
Personally speaking: I think it's meant to add the mounted combat feats, but I think they forgot about prereqs - Spirited Charge is not exactly balanced at first level for one feat.
FAQ'd
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The archetype could be a bit more clear on its abilities, but monks need not meet the prerequisites for their bonus feats, and the Sohei does not have any wording that suggests it should do otherwise. And although there is no exact definition of "Mounted Combat Feats", the only conclusion (which most people accept) is that feats with Mounted Combat as a prerequisite (or Mounted Combat itself) would qualify.
So, yes, this means that a 1st level Sohei could technically take Mounted Skirmisher, which normally would require a 14th level character to qualify for, but then again mounted combat in general is rarely used (I've never seen a Sohei in PFS, have you?), so I feel if someone wants to invest in a mounted character, power to them.
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Personally speaking: I think it's meant to add the mounted combat feats, but I think they forgot about prereqs - Spirited Charge is not exactly balanced at first level for one feat.
Mounted Skirmisher is even worse. I've seen more than one TWF fighter or ranger in PFS take a level in Sohei to essentially get pounce for a one-level dip.
Personally speaking: I think it was meant to replace the normal monk bonus feats and may even have had "X" at first level, "Y" at sixth, and "Z" at 10th, but when Paizo got to the layout stage of the book they needed to trim so the classes wouldn't share pages. Unintended consequences and all.
FAQ'd
edit: I got slightly ninja'd so I'll just add that I have seen quite a few Sohei in PFS. It's a popular among the "dippers" because it gets all the normal "good monk stuff" (IUS, three good saves, wisdom to AC if you don't wear armor, a bonus feat) and replaces stunning fist with the ability to always act in the surprise round.
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Thanks for the input everyone!
Yeah, the strict interpretation of a lot of stuff is ridiculous. I agree with the thought that its supposed to add mounted combat feats to the normal list. BTW, you can get Spirited Charge at first level. You can't USE it necessarily, since you have to be human and have a large mount, but you can get it.Super strictly speaking: Sohei doesn't say it gives you bonus feats, just what you can select. [yes, this is silly - just getting it out of the way.]
Strictly speaking: It appears to replace the monk bonus feat class feature (just leaving the chart - and thus when they get them - intact).
Realistically speaking: The entry is a bit too short to really be considered a full replacement, as opposed to a space-saving thing. It doesn't say "also select", which slightly leads towards selecting only mounted feats.
Loosely speaking: Taking a queue from "Cards do what they say", the ability doesn't mention any sort of replacement, so seems to be a pure addition to the monk options. Thus all monk choices, plus mounted combat choices, none with prereqs.
Thread consensus previously was you're good to go as far as pre-reqs go, but this seems unintended to me.
Personally speaking: I think it's meant to add the mounted combat feats, but I think they forgot about prereqs - Spirited Charge is not exactly balanced at first level for one feat.
FAQ'd
I agree with the general consensus of all feats with Mounted Combat prerequisite, but that leaves out some nice thematic mounted feats[Skill Focus[ride] comes to mind], and it allows stuff like Mounted Skirmisher at first level, which is a bit too powerful. I actually was planing on making a Sohei for PFS as a thought experiment/backup build when I came across the bonus feat issue.The archetype could be a bit more clear on its abilities, but monks need not meet the prerequisites for their bonus feats, and the Sohei does not have any wording that suggests it should do otherwise. And although there is no exact definition of "Mounted Combat Feats", the only conclusion (which most people accept) is that feats with Mounted Combat as a prerequisite (or Mounted Combat itself) would qualify.
So, yes, this means that a 1st level Sohei could technically take Mounted Skirmisher, which normally would require a 14th level character to qualify for, but then again mounted combat in general is rarely used (I've never seen a Sohei in PFS, have you?), so I feel if someone wants to invest in a mounted character, power to them.
Personally speaking: I think it was meant to replace the normal monk bonus feats and may even have had "X" at first level, "Y" at sixth, and "Z" at 10th, but when Paizo got to the layout stage of the book they needed to trim so the classes wouldn't share pages. Unintended consequences and all.
Yeah, I pretty much agree here. It does seem like an oversight with the first level Mounted Skirmisher feat, which while not too OP at first level, at around 6th level when the normal fighter has 2 attacks, and you can get up to 5 as a sohei, it becomes too good. Especially for Nodachi builds.
Thanks for all the FAQ's everyone!
It's not a replacement effect. You may choose Mounted Combat feats.That seems to be what is being debated.
Needs more FAQs... I've always wondered about this one myself.
Usually if it is a replacement they write that down. For me that is enough to assume that the mounted combat feats are in addition to the other bonus feats.
It doesn't say "This ability replaces a monk's bonus feats.", nor does it say "A sohei may only select . . .". I'm inclined to think, then, that the ability is a strict addition to the monk write-up.
I think PFS would see more sohei if people could be certain how they work.
Let's FAQ bomb the first post so we get this settled once and for all.
Thanks for all the votes! Let's hope an FAQ comes soon.