This is something deeper into the rules than the simple yes/no and is on a different axis from the dancing kobold question, and I don't think the rules go that deep.
I (obviously :) don't see it that way. I think the dancing kobold is a subset of the greater issue of how readied actions work within the game. Its not a completely different issue all on its own.
What you have is a situation where the fighter MUST take an invalid action. He must make a melee attack at someone that is no longer in melee range. There's no rules for that. If the fighter is making his attack roll then the kobold is still in the square, and the hit is resolved via the intended mechanic of to hit vs ac. But that never happens because the kobold isn't there.
As noted previously, I'd apply that same logic to the sundered potion, sorry, your potion was destroyed, your action is now invalid and lost. The drinker must take a, now, invalid action.
The dice roll to hit is completely outside of the in world context of what is happening. So making a roll (or not) has no bearing on the issue IMO.
bbangerter
Thats very different. Its a "you can't" rather than "You must" action.
Also, it specifically wouldn't work with spells. You select a spells target after casting. The fighter should have at least as much control over their sword and be able to attack someone else, which means.. yup. Reacted to something that never happened.
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bbangerter
Thats very different. Its a "you can't" rather than "You must" action.
Also, it specifically wouldn't work with spells. You select a spells target after casting. The fighter should have at least as much control over their sword and be able to attack someone else, which means.. yup. Reacted to something that never happened.
Your comparison doesn't quite hold. When you make an attack with a sword, you're swinging at someone. When you start casting a spell you haven't chosen a target yet. Let's consider Scorching Ray; you're about to shoot one of two annoying gnomes.
One of them had a readied action to shoot you if you began to cast a spell. It triggers, he hits. He might interrupt your casting, but let's say you make your concentration check.
Then your spell resolves. You choose targets and elect to shoot the other gnome. That one had a readied action to run behind total cover if he was targeted by a spell. He does so, and your ray hits the spot where that gnome was just standing.
If Gnome 1 had penetrated your concentration, you wouldn't get a chance to cast a different spell; you'd already committed to this one. Spell's gone.
After Gnome 2 dove behind a wall, you couldn't change targets, because G2's trigger condition was that you targeted him.
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I think some of the problems are because people are going to far with scheduling readied actions entirely "before" the character you're interrupting. It makes much more sense to say they happen immediately after the trigger, but before the next thing that would otherwise happen after the trigger. And because you "invaded" someone's turn, afterwards your initiative is placed entirely before the interrupted character's.
So if I say I ready to run away if you take a swing at me with your sword, it triggers after you start attacking (you've spent the action and aimed it at me) but before you conclude it (with a to-hit resolution).
Ascalaphus: So which is it?
If you use spellcasting as the precedent that there is a time in between the "start" of a sword attack thats separate from the conclusion (itself not something found in the rules) then the target doesn't get chosen until the end.
Without that you can't interupt the "start" of a sword attack because it doesn't exist. The attack isn't divided up into a start and a resolution.
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Ascalaphus: So which is it?
If you use spellcasting as the precedent that there is a time in between the "start" of a sword attack thats separate from the conclusion (itself not something found in the rules) then the target doesn't get chosen until the end.
Without that you can't interupt the "start" of a sword attack because it doesn't exist. The attack isn't divided up into a start and a resolution.
No, that's not right. Every time you attack someone you pick a target, then execute the attack. If you're interrupted after choosing a target you don't get to choose a new target, because you've already made that choice.
The difference with spells is that there are more steps to spellcasting, so more moments to interrupt.
Sword attack:
- Pick target
- Roll to-hit
- Determine whether it was a hit/crit
- Do damage
Spell:
- Cast spell
- Pick target
- Roll to-hit (if needed)
- Determine whether it was a hit/crit
- Roll Spell Resistance (if needed)
- Enemies try saving throws (if needed)
- Resolve spell effect
In this case, if a readied action happens during the "Cast spell" step, you haven't chosen targets yet. The same doesn't go for sword attacks; you don't make an attack and then choose targets.
In both cases, "when I am targeted but before hitting is decided" is a good moment for a Ready-to-dash.
If the second gnome doesn't duck behind cover, merely moves 5'? Obviously, you are going to shoot your spell at the square he was standing.
I don't see any evidence in the game that those are different steps that exist, much less can be responded to with a readied action. How does the Fighter see when the spell is cast but he is targeted?
There are TONS of points of using it in a group battle. Your battle turtle can stop a charge dead with 100% accuracy, force melee to hold off for a round while the party range plugs away, automatically render round one of a big chomp or moving non pounce monster entirely superfluous, and basically pause the bad guy any time any time they have to move.
No.
Your post is full of exaggeration.
"100% accuracy." "Automatically." "Any time."
To ready is to give up the initiative to your foe in the hope that he will misuse it. It is a dangerous tactic, easily disrupted as we've been through, and furthermore it all depends on you correctly reading the foe's mind and him not reading yours (when he has more information than you do, because he sees you hanging back holding your action for *something*). None of the words you use to describe it are accurate, because you do not control what your foe will do with "100% accuracy."
My group has long understood that this is how the readied action rules work, and nobody wastes their time with it. It's about as useful as the brace property on a weapon, i.e., generally not. Ready triggers need to be broad and highly predictable to be worthwhile (e.g., "if the spellcaster uses magic," not "if the fighter moves up to me, joe kobold no. 6, in melee and attacks me."
Some of them are not only not 100%, they aren't even 10%.
"automatically render round one of a big chomp or moving non pounce monster entirely superfluous"
How is this supposed to ever work against a big monster, let alone work automatically? Big monsters have reach. So you stick a dagger in him and 5' step back... you're still in his reach. T Rex bites you anyway.
And that's if T Rex doesn't decide to reach right over you and bite the back rank, because he feels like chewy instead of crunchy, and then you don't even get to stick a dagger in him because you guessed the wrong readied trigger. Not only have you failed to waste his turn, you've wasted your own.
"Automatically."
*shakes head*
If the enemy readies "if someone attacks me", you want to go camp next to him without attacking.
If the enemy readies "if someone moves up close to me", you are going to be fine with moving up and attacking.
Now all you have to do is guess which the kobold chose. Based on what the kobold thought you would do. Based on...
Stupid, useless guessing game.
And no, there is to my knowledge no explanation of how specific the trigger conditions need to be.
To ready is to give up the initiative to your foe in the hope that he will misuse it. It is a dangerous tactic, easily disrupted as we've been through
Your idea of "Easily" is to give up half your action economy to it.
Your post is full of exaggeration and hyperbole.
"100% accuracy." "Automatically." "Any time."
There is no hyperbole.
The dancing kobold dodges the sword 100% of the time. They do so without regard to the level, skill, equipment, or anything that the game is built around acquiring. There is no die roll, there is no chance. Its 100%, automatically effective and that is not how combat is supposed to work in this game.
and furthermore it all depends on you correctly reading the foe's mind and him not reading yours (when he has more information than you do, because he sees you hanging back holding your action for *something*).
There are a very limited number of things a melee characters and monster. can do to be effective. When they aren't in melee range, they move up and attack you.
How is this supposed to ever work against a big monster, let alone work automatically? Big monsters have reach. So you attack him and 5' step back... you're still in his reach. T Rex bites you anyway.
A: Reach weapon
B: If you're meatshielding for the party their charge stops at the closest square they can attack from. A 5 foot step puts you out of reach of that.C: The monster has to 5 foot step to get you into reach.
D: Use a missile weapon or better yet, a spell that doesn't care about losing your move action.
These examples have been with a kobold and a fighter for simplicities sake, but they get really nasty really fast if its a wizard chucking disintegrates that can 5 foot step dodge and cast.
And that's if T Rex doesn't decide to reach right over you and bite the back rank, because he feels like chewy instead of crunchy, and then you don't even get to attack with your turn because you guessed the wrong readied trigger. Not only have you failed to waste his turn, you've wasted your...
If the t rex walks right up to you, and the wizard is right on your rump instead of a little ways back sure.
f the t rex walks right up to you, and the wizard is right on your rump instead of a little ways back sure.
You readied to attack him when he attacks you, remember? I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. If he's 15' away, you can't stick a dagger in him anyway, no readied action for you.
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If the second gnome doesn't duck behind cover, merely moves 5'? Obviously, you are going to shoot your spell at the square he was standing.
You were targeting the kobold to begin with, not the square. So you'd fire at him in his new position. Maybe targeting him in his new position is harder however, due to cover/firing into melee penalties.
Now, if the kobold achieved Total Cover, you could no longer target him and you'd auto-miss. Likewise if the kobold ran away far enough to get out of the spell's range.
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If the enemy readies "if someone attacks me", you want to go camp next to him without attacking.
If the enemy readies "if someone moves up close to me", you are going to be fine with moving up and attacking.
Now all you have to do is guess which the kobold chose. Based on what the kobold thought you would do. Based on...
Stupid, useless guessing game.
And no, there is to my knowledge no explanation of how specific the trigger conditions need to be.
"You'd like to think that, wouldn't you? You've beaten my giant, which means you're exceptionally strong, so you could've put the poison in your own goblet, trusting on your strength to save you, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But, you've also bested my Spaniard, which means you must have studied, and in studying you must have learned that man is mortal, so you would have put the poison as far from yourself as possible, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me."
technically you can only ready 1 move but still yes.. teleport and AoO under the dancing kobold interpretation.
If the enemy readies "if someone attacks me", you want to go camp next to him without attacking.
If the enemy readies "if someone moves up close to me", you are going to be fine with moving up and attacking.
Now all you have to do is guess which the kobold chose. Based on what the kobold thought you would do. Based on...
Stupid, useless guessing game.
And no, there is to my knowledge no explanation of how specific the trigger conditions need to be.
You find out which it is when you move next to him and his ready either triggers or doesn't. Either way you have remaining actions, and likely remaining movement, to react appropriately. You don't actually need to guess between the two, because in the scenario you present, you actually find out.
But my favorite thing to do is to do something else, like stab his buddy, and pretend I am not a lowly fighter, but instead a mighty gestalt fighter//wizard and I also cast quickened daze on the kobold who is standing there losing his turn :p
f the t rex walks right up to you, and the wizard is right on your rump instead of a little ways back sure.You readied to attack him when he attacks you, remember? I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. If he's 15' away, you can't stick a dagger in him anyway, no readied action for you.
5 foot back
*throws dagger*
This is another huge problem with trying to take the turns out of turn based combat. How specific does the readied action need to be , can you ready for something, ready for anything... it quickly becomes a mess. Its a weird combination of mother may I and rock paper scissors lizard spock for what readied action beats what action.
If you don't want to be hit, put some tin can on your can.
Coriat: No, make no mistake, I need to know which it is. The kobold will attack or not depending on it. Worse, the kobold needs to guess whether I am going to just move up and attack or move up and wait when he chooses his trigger. It is iocaine.
Coriat: No, make no mistake, I need to know which it is. The kobold will attack or not depending on it. Worse, the kobold needs to guess whether I am going to just move up and attack or move up and wait when he chooses his trigger. It is iocaine.
Yeah, and the fact that the kobold needs to guess is what makes it an iffy and undesirable tactic for him and not a super attractive one to use all the time. No problem.
But it doesn't matter if you need to know. (You don't need to know. But it doesn't matter, because in the scenario you set up, you actually *do know*).
In your scenario, you take a move action. When you're in reach of the kobold, if he readied vs someone moving up to him, that ready action triggers and now you've found out. If it doesn't trigger, you've found out that he's waiting for your attack. Either way, you can react appropriately with your own, as yet unspent action.
Your scenario gives you the information too early, so there's no need to guess.
Crisis averted.
And if it's a mythic graveknight with a vorpal longsword, it becomes hugely important to know which it is. Guessing game. Bad idea.
If it is a mythic graveknight with a vorpal longsword, you stay the hell away from him either way. Duh. :p
If it is a mythic graveknight with a vorpal longsword, you stay the hell away from him either way. Duh. :p
"Whats the big advantage of a 25 foot movement speed?"
"Outrunning the dwarf
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I don't see any evidence in the game that those are different steps that exist, much less can be responded to with a readied action. How does the Fighter see when the spell is cast but he is targeted?
Well, we need to walk through the text step by step for that.
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition.
So far still clear. "I run behind the wall if the BBEG targets a spell at me" or "I shoot the BBEG if he starts casting a spell".
How does Joe Fighter know he's being targeted with a spell? That's a fair question; I think in general targeting someone is somewhat visible. You point a finger at someone, call them out, look at them intently, something like that. You could probably try to hide it with Bluff vs. Sense Motive or by using some mechanic that obscures your spellcasting.
In this specific case where a ranged touch attack is being made, I believe it should be relatively hard to hide; you're basically pointing a magic laser at someone. For something more subtle like Murderous Command, that's an open question.
In any case, there is no limitation placed on what kind of conditions you can specify, although they should obviously be things your character could perceive.
So it makes sense to allow a trigger to happen after any "event" that can't be subdivided further. An attack consists of several steps (choosing a target and stuff like Power Attack, rolling to-hit, confirming hits, doing damage) and there are various Immediate action abilities that specify they can be used against attacks at various of those steps but before others. For example, an ability that improves AC often needs to be used before to-hit is rolled but can be used after you know the attack is used at you; while Deflect Arrows is used after you're hit but before you're damaged.
So it's reasonable to use this same granularity for conditions for readied actions, since there aren't any other limits given.
The action occurs just before the action that triggers it.
I think people are interpreting this too literally. If an attack readied to interrupt someone casting a spell really resolves completely before the spellcasting, then it couldn't really break Concentration. But that's specifically given as an example.
Rather, I think it should be understood as: as soon as the trigger happens, your readied action is resolved, before the interrupted character does anything else.
If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character.
This should probably read as "if the triggering action..." because otherwise it doesn't make any sense.
Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.
If he's capable, he continues.
If he's not capable, time shouldn't wound back to allow him a different action, it's just that his atttempted action abruptly ends, uncompleted.
We know this because in the case of an interrupted/countered spell, the daily spell is lost. That was one of the costs of casting a spell; the opportunity to take a (standard, usually) action was another.
Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You invaded someone's turn and executed a readied action in the middle of what he was doing. Afterwards the initiative order is re-established to make sure nobody's scheduled exactly simultaneously.
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On the whole we need to make sure we don't parse the rule too literally, because then you get time travel/take-backsies problems. The analysis I've given above avoids those problems.
Next step is what happens if you have two kobolds both triggering on the same action. Which order do they get?
The core problem here is that readied actions are a bad fit for the rest of the combat system. The best solution is probably to remove ready actions, letting people delay to when they feel like acting, but not letting them interrupt anything. If you still want the interrupt mechanic for casting, find a way for that. A suggestion could be that you need to make concentration checks for damage taken since your last turn. Add in a guard action to attack the first enemy that comes within striking range. Let the rest be handled with attacks of opportunity.
So far still clear. "I run behind the wall if the BBEG targets a spell at me" or "I shoot the BBEG if he starts casting a spell".
Those are not the same thing for a number of reasons.
Most importantly is that people on golarion have an idea of what a spell being cast looks like and post FAQ there's some glowy magicky special effects teams working on it to boot. Even the 6 int fighter has "big words i don't understand, HIT!" as a possible triggering action (which gets hillarious when the guards yell out "parley!" and he beheads them)
Secondly you're dividing spellcasting into steps that I don't think are there. There isn't neccesarily any time in between picking the target and finishing. Its entirely possible (even likely) that if you've cast the spell and picked the target thats it, the spell is in effect.
In any case, there is no limitation placed on what kind of conditions you can specify, although they should obviously be things your character could perceive.
You're doing more than specifying conditions you're breaking actions up into parts they don't have. You're basically trying to cram something into planc time.
On the whole we need to make sure we don't parse the rule too literally, because then you get time travel/take-backsies problems. The analysis I've given above avoids those problems.
And creates dozens more, isn't raw , has a slew of problems for both game balance and playability.
You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.
That does not sound like there's an order or length of time in between picking a target or coming into effect. They happen at the same time.
sleeeep
"You'd like to think that, wouldn't you? You've beaten my giant, which means you're exceptionally strong, so you could've put the poison in your own goblet, trusting on your strength to save you, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But, you've also bested my Spaniard, which means you must have studied, and in studying you must have learned that man is mortal, so you would have put the poison as far from yourself as possible, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me."
The Princess Bride (32:35)
To ready is to give up the initiative to your foe in the hope that he will misuse it. It is a dangerous tactic, easily disrupted as we've been through
Your idea of "Easily" is to give up half your action economy to it.
Your post is full of exaggeration and hyperbole.
"100% accuracy." "Automatically." "Any time."
There is no hyperbole.
The dancing kobold dodges the sword 100% of the time. They do so without regard to the level, skill, equipment, or anything that the game is built around acquiring. There is no die roll, there is no chance. Its 100%, automatically effective and that is not how combat is supposed to work in this game.
and furthermore it all depends on you correctly reading the foe's mind and him not reading yours (when he has more information than you do, because he sees you hanging back holding your action for *something*).There are a very limited number of things a melee characters and monster. can do to be effective. When they aren't in melee range, they move up and attack you.
How is this supposed to ever work against a big monster, let alone work automatically? Big monsters have reach. So you attack him and 5' step back... you're still in his reach. T Rex bites you anyway.A: Reach weapon
B: If you're meatshielding for the party their charge stops at the closest square they can attack from. A 5 foot step puts you out of reach of that.
C: The monster has to 5 foot step to get you into reach.
D: Use a missile weapon or better yet, a spell that doesn't care about losing your move action.These examples have been with a kobold and a fighter for simplicities sake, but they get really nasty really fast if its a wizard chucking disintegrates that can 5 foot step dodge and cast.
And that's if T Rex doesn't decide to reach right over you and bite the back rank, because he feels like chewy instead of crunchy, and then you don't even get to attack with...
You're giving up the majority of your Action Economy to do so. That's an encounter-ending spell that could've been cast, that's a ranged Full Attack that could easily down the target if you're optimized for it. Quite frankly, the only reason players would "give up half of your action economy" is to bait the enemy's action economy, because you can't 1-round it, and this is done in an attempt to reduce HP loss from given enemies who can full-attack and deal some significant damage. If you're optimized, you can 1-round the little bastard anyway, 9 times out of 10, and you shouldn't need to waste time spending your actions to ready against something that may or may not happen, or if it does happen, your proxy wouldn't feasibly work against it, meaning you're sitting there holding your scrotum, protecting it with your hand against your favorite disintegrate, enervation, or blindness/deafness spell. Fun times had by all, I'm sure.
You're also ignoring what this can properly affect. This only works on creatures with reach less than yours, as well as only being one size larger than you, tops, unless you have some special ability that allows you to trip the bigger guys (such as Toppling metamagic). A creature that's of equal reach to yourself will still be able to attack you if you use a Reach Weapon, although he might have a penalty depending on the Trip result, and a creature that has greater reach than you, 9 times out of 10, can't be tripped, meaning the readied tactic is only good for dealing damage, which isn't really that big of a deal, and they're still certainly within the enemy's threatened range.
There are also feat chains and class abilities that can quite easily deal with this "I 5-foot" conundrum, and that's precisely what those feats were designed to do; counter players who 5-foot out of your reach to do something without provoking, or requiring the range for something else. It's actually nice to give those (usually) untaken feats more reason to take in comparison to players with their cookie-cutter Iron Will or Improved Initiative.
The fact that the stupidity that we're discussing can be mitigated by taking several feats, and only affects some types of creatures, and so on is of little to no consequence. Equally so that it CAN be compensated for in the next round. It flat out doesn't matter, and doesn't make the situation acceptable.
See, if it was a spell we were discussing, you could state a legitimate argument that the problem really isn't that bad. At some point, someone designing the spell would have intended the 1d20 fire damage per caster level or whatever. Sure, it would mess up a way of gaming, but it's still something to work with. Fire resistance becomes more important. Stuff might need more hp or Reflex saves. And perhaps the new game is worth it? Not so with idiot system glitches. Do you honestly think this was intended? As in, the designers sitting down and deciding that readying an action to attack and then take a five foot step meant getting out of being attacked without any sort of complications. I can just imagine Jason and the gang (or Monte and the gang) sitting there and saying "Oh yeah, that will buy anyone at least a round of invulnerability against the first melee attack! Brilliant!"
No. This is a deranged consequence of the complexity of the game system. In programming, it would be called a bug. Nobody can have overview of every possible combination of rules once a very small number is reached. If you doubt this, please just take a look through the rest of this subforum.
Edit: Oh yes, the feats that let you follow when someone 5' steps? They were designed to counter the general tactic of 5'-stepping to avoid having to cast defensively or drawing AoOs for using missile weapons in melee. Not to deal with the readied 5' step.
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So far still clear. "I run behind the wall if the BBEG targets a spell at me" or "I shoot the BBEG if he starts casting a spell".Those are not the same thing for a number of reasons.
Obviously. I was trying to demonstrate that you have different options as readying conditions.
Most importantly is that people on golarion have an idea of what a spell being cast looks like and post FAQ there's some glowy magicky special effects teams working on it to boot. Even the 6 int fighter has "big words i don't understand, HIT!" as a possible triggering action (which gets hillarious when the guards yell out "parley!" and he beheads them)
Secondly you're dividing spellcasting into steps that I don't think are there. There isn't neccesarily any time in between picking the target and finishing. Its entirely possible (even likely) that if you've cast the spell and picked the target thats it, the spell is in effect.
I admit that the magic chapter doesn't present us with a neat flowchart of the steps of spellcasting, but we can identify some of them, if only by the section headings.
- Choosing a spell
- Concentration. This is when interrupting spellcasting with attacks happens.
- Choosing targets/variables.
- Rolling to hit. We know there is a "gap" between this step and the previous one because Quick Block Buckler must be activated between declaring targets and making attack rolls. Because to use such an item you have to know the attack is aimed at you.
- Determining if the to-hit roll succeeded. There is again a small gap here wherein you can use powers like using the Fate subdomain to force a reroll before the result of the roll is revealed.
- Determining the effects of the spell, provided it hit. Between this step and the previous there's still time to use stuff like Ray Shield to negate an attack whose to-hit roll succeeded.
In fact the number of steps is variable, because some spells can crit, some require a to-hit roll followed by a save, and some require multiple saves. And there's miss chances, spell penetration, counterspelling, and probably more things. Each of which involves a decision or test of some kind.
Each of these is a discrete, observable event, and could be used for a trigger condition.
In any case, there is no limitation placed on what kind of conditions you can specify, although they should obviously be things your character could perceive.You're doing more than specifying conditions you're breaking actions up into parts they don't have. You're basically trying to cram something into planc time.
I've shown that spells have these discrete steps, that there are abilities that you could (and could only) use in between them, so why not ready actions?
On the whole we need to make sure we don't parse the rule too literally, because then you get time travel/take-backsies problems. The analysis I've given above avoids those problems.And creates dozens more, isn't raw , has a slew of problems for both game balance and playability.
The overly literal reading doesn't make sense. Unfortunate, because for this kind of thing you'd want very precise clear (mathematical) language, but that's not the case. We've got natural language instead.
You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.
That does not sound like there's an order or length of time in between picking a target or coming into effect. They happen at the same time.
sleeeep
Since there are other abilities that can be used in between the targeting and resolving of a spell, I see no reason why splitting it with readied action is not possible.
I think most people are upset that common battle tactics can negate their brain-dead RAWRSMASH charge builds. And are using the Kobold angle disingenuously to try and get it changed backdoor style.
I agree with this. As they often say the kobold is invincible, which means that the only tactic the fighter uses is move and hit, never changing, even if it doesn't work.
And they argue it's not the rules because "OMG that kobold lived a round longer than is should have. Fighter's even more useless. Totally broken tactic."And "WHAT! You're saying that a kobold that plans on wasting my actions can cause me to waste my actions if he succeeds? No I obviously get to do something else if his plan to foil my action succeeds. Nothing you can do all day should have the power to foil actions."
What you have is a situation where the fighter MUST take an invalid action. He must make a melee attack at someone that is no longer in melee range. There's no rules for that. If the fighter is making his attack roll then the kobold is still in the square, and the hit is resolved via the intended mechanic of to hit vs ac. But that never happens because the kobold isn't there.I find it odd that you dislike the timey whimey ball, yet it is your reading of the rules that leads to it, while the other reading does not.
There are rules for that, it works similarly to how you have to choose a square to attack when you can't pinpoint an invisible character. If you pick the wrong square, you miss. The same idea applies here.
However, if a GM were to try to play this dancing kobold game with me, I would throw a dagger first (triggering his readied action) and then close after he makes his 5' step. The kobold dies the next round.
What in the world is the argument about whether or not you can negate someone's action with this?
It clearly says they continue their action if able. Which means, by definition, that there will be times when they are UNABLE to continue because of a readied interruption.
Right, if you kill them , paralyze them, interrupt the spell etc. Then it doesn't resolve via some funky simultaneous thing where they are dead but still swinging at the same time, you actually put them out of commission.
Ascalaphus ,
You are about six steps of interpolation from the raw to your conclusions and that is not a solid foundation for rules interpretation
In fact the number of steps is variable, because some spells can crit, some require a to-hit roll followed by a save, and some require multiple saves. And there's miss chances, spell penetration, counterspelling, and probably more things. Each of which involves a decision or test of some kind.
by the PLAYER or their deity, not the character. There's a huge difference.
I've shown that spells have these discrete steps, that there are abilities that you could (and could only) use in between them, so why not ready actions?
Because you haven't demonstrated that they occur sequentially, or that they're visible to the character, or in the exact order you need them to in order to pull this off. You're also comparing immediate actions, non actions, and readied actions and they're not the same thing.
This is very much not raw. Its not against raw but its not raw either.
Kobold readies action to attack and move 5' away if attacked. Fighter can't do anything but stand there wishing he could kill the kobold.
I give you the solution, completely available to our 5th level fighter:
You can close the distance when a foe tries to move away.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: Whenever an adjacent foe attempts to take a 5-foot step away from you, you may also make a 5-foot step as an immediate action so long as you end up adjacent to the foe that triggered this ability. If you take this step, you cannot take a 5-foot step during your next turn. If you take an action to move during your next turn, subtract 5 feet from your total movement.
Or he could throw a dagger and then close.
I think most people are upset that common battle tactics can negate their brain-dead RAWRSMASH charge builds. And are using the Kobold angle disingenuously to try and get it changed backdoor style.
Its melee. If you're not next to your opponent your options area pretty much move up to them and attack or waste your round.
Kobold readies action to attack and move 5' away if attacked. Fighter can't do anything but stand there wishing he could kill the kobold.
I give you the solution, completely available to our 5th level fighter:
** spoiler omitted **
Or he could throw a dagger and then close.
If you need a very specific feat in your build to kill a kobold, or can't melee a kobold to death because of a gray area of the rules, something has gone horribly wrong.
Sure, but this fighter doesn't have stepup and only has a sword. He can't do anything
Then I would suggest you start playing a character class that requires less system knowledge.
Or you could take Lunge.
If you need a very specific feat in your build to kill a kobold, or can't melee a kobold to death because of a gray area of the rules, something has gone horribly wrong.
Kobold readies action to attack and move 5' away if attacked. Fighter can't do anything but stand there wishing he could kill the kobold.
I give you the solution, completely available to our 5th level fighter:
** spoiler omitted **
Or he could throw a dagger and then close.
The only thing wrong here is that you are making your fighter one trick pony.
One trick ponies are easily thwarted by those more intelligent. Which apparently this kobold is...
Or you could interpret the readied action to not waste your attack.
Why waste a valid tactic. Stepping out of range of an attack, causing your attacker to miss is one of the most basic defenses since the beginning of time.
The only thing wrong here is that you are making your fighter one trick pony.
One trick ponies are easily thwarted by those more intelligent. Which apparently this kobold is...
The alleged superiority complex needs to stop. Its not true and its not helpful.
Your entire scenario is predicated on a fighter that doesn't have the brains to do anything other than move and then attack.
How is that not a one trick pony?
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Or you could interpret the readied action to not waste your attack.Why waste a valid tactic. Stepping out of range of an attack, causing your attacker to miss is one of the most basic defenses since the beginning of time.
Of course, the beginning of time doesn't include grids and turn-based action economies. In real life, an attacker gets to react to their target trying to step out of range and adjust their plans. Moreover, the act of trying to make an attacker miss is already incorporated into the D&D family's combat system through a Dexterity bonus to AC and tactics like fighting defensively. That someone exploits a poorly written rule within a turn-based abstracted combat system isn't a use of good, historical tactics. It's an exploit of a poorly written rule.
Your entire scenario is predicated on a fighter that doesn't have the brains to do anything other than move and then attack.
This is objectively incorrect on a number of accounts that have already been discussed.
-Some monsters/animals aren't any smarter
-Move and attack is kind of an unavoidable reality in practice
-The defeat of the kobold is still a victory
-You do not know what action the kobold is holding for. The allegedly superior tactics themselves have counters because if you assume a cheeky fighter you assume a cheeky fighter which in turn gives you a cheekier kobold which disolves into a weird game of what held action beats what held action.
How is that not a one trick pony?
If you read a gray area of the rules so that it effectively comes out to cutting the actions of a catagory of fighter as broad as melee in half you're more than likely doing something wrong.