What happens to my action if it becomes invalid due to an AoO or readied action.


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Grand Lodge

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
tchrman35 wrote:


Turn 1 PC/Standard: Ready to 5ft/attack any enemy that stops in an adjacent square
If the proxy was "If the enemy is adjacent to me,"

Well, first, you changed my trigger from "stops" to "arrives". But I'm thinking stopping might be a bit too meta anyway.

Second - you're saying that a character can take two 5-ft steps between its turns if the round-counter has moved? That seems a little off.


tchrman35 wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
tchrman35 wrote:


Turn 1 PC/Standard: Ready to 5ft/attack any enemy that stops in an adjacent square
If the proxy was "If the enemy is adjacent to me,"

Well, first, you changed my trigger from "stops" to "arrives". But I'm thinking stopping might be a bit too meta anyway.

Second - you're saying that a character can take two 5-ft steps between its turns if the round-counter has moved? That seems a little off.

The creature still has movement when it's adjacent to you, and it could simply take another Move Action, meaning its movement is still not ended, meaning it's not technically a valid proxy. Its movement ends when A. It takes two Move Actions, or B. takes another action besides a Move Action (which automatically ends your movement, leaving you with no other actions to Move with).

And between what turns?

Ready wrote:

...The action occurs just before the action that triggers it....

...For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.

So let's say the PC had a 15 Initiative, and the creature had a 10 Initiative. The PC's Readied Action would occur (and resolve) on the Creature's Initiative 10. This means the 5-foot step occurs at the start of Initiative 10 of Round 1. The PC wouldn't be able to act again until Initiative 10 of Round 2. That is one entire round that has elapsed between the PC's first 5-foot step, which means he is able to take another 5-foot step on the following round.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Coriat wrote:


I understand better, now, why you still consider the ready an issue, although I'm not clear what prompts you to assert that after the ready resolves, the fighter cannot take a 5' step during his attack action.

Because that gives you Schrodinger's fighter. What squares does he threaten while moving while attacking?

So in other words, you understand that the rule explicitly allows taking a 5' step during an action, you just don't like the situations that (you conclude) this rule creates and prefer to keep dancing kobold alive forever instead? All right, let's look at things from this angle...

There's no uncertainty principle here, though, so I don't think your analogy to the cat is compelling. I think it's fairly simple. You take the 5' step as soon as the readied action is over and then proceed normally, resolving your action from your new position.

I don't see any particular reason to create a Schrodinger fighter out of this situation.

I do see a problem with your interpretation though. You are allowed to take a 5' step before, during, or after an action. If you deny the 5' step in response to the ready, you're insisting that we are at a point in the round that is neither before nor during the fighter's action, even though he has yet to make his attack roll.

It seems to me that, in an attempt to keep the dancing kobold on life support, you're jumping into a houserule, a houserule which is justified by an interpretation of the written rules that seems to me to be incoherent. Houserule away 5' steps during actions because you conclude this would create Schrodinger's fighter... somehow... instead of KISS and just resolving the action from the new position. We're neither before nor during the fighter's attack, even though he hasn't finished it yet.

I find that significantly harder to wrap my head around than the idea that your threatened squares might change if your character moves to a different spot.


I think this is quite straightforward to adjudicate. Stepping away from the rules minutia for a moment and accepting that the rules are attempting to model in a sequential, playable way, a 6 second time period where simultaneous actions are occurring.

A and B are both fighters with longswords and there is currently 5 feet between them, A has the initiative.

A is intending to ready an action to make an attack and step back if someone is within range.
B intends to make a 5 foot step and get within weapon range to make a full attack.

As B approaches A, two alternate scenarios can play out:
1. A swings the sword to strike as he gives ground. B presses his approach and has a single opportunity to attack.
2. A swings the sword to strike as he gives ground. Deterred by A's attack B ceases his approach, taking advantage of A stepping back beyond sword range, B draws and throws a dagger at A instead.

In the first scenario B's 5 foot step turned into a 10' move action and they could no longer do a full attack but could take the single attack allowed as a standard action. In the second scenario B still has a move action and a standard action left after A's readied action had completed.

Lets take another scenario with the same A and B. A has bested B who is prone on the ground. Not wanting to kill B, A offers B the chance to surrender and has given him room to stand up, so there is 5 feet of space between them.
On the next round A readies to defend himself with a non-lethal attack and to step back if B comes for him again.
Taking the assumption that B wants to continue the fight there are [at least] 3 scenarios:
1. Stand up from prone, take a 5' step and launch a standard attack. This is pretty dumb as A's readied action, which the player would know as it was declared in the round, would move A beyond B's standard attack.
2. Stand up from prone, take a 5' step and either feint or use total defence. B still takes the full attack without reply but has either given themselves an advantage for the next round or at least protected themselves.
3. Stand up from prone and feint to gain an advantage in the next round. This probably the best option as the condition for A's readied action never occurs during the round

In the second scenario the requirement to stand from prone limits the ability to move in the same round, but that just means the combat goes on for an extra round.

The third scenario is if A has a longspear. In the last round A's friend the cleric cast Command Halt on B and A warned B not to come closer or make any aggressive actions whilst positioning himself so that B is in the longspear's range.

A's readied action is the same.
B intends to make a 5' step and do a full attack.

B's action is clearly aggressive so A's readied action of an attack occurs and A takes his step back.
B can choose to complete the 5' step and stay within range of the longspear, press through and close to longsword range, taking an AoO in the process or to not take the 5 foot step at all and let A disengage.

Edit: removed references to a full attack, my bad


Coriat wrote:


So in other words, you understand that the rule explicitly allows taking a 5' step during an action, you just don't like the situations that (you conclude) this rule creates and prefer to keep dancing kobold alive forever instead? All right, let's look at things from this angle...

No, and saying I'm being disingenuous in my answer is not cool dude.

"I can sleep while driving between new york and LA" means I can pull over at some point and sleep, not that I can sleep while driving.

Quote:
There's no uncertainty principle here, though, so I don't think your analogy to the cat is compelling. I think it's fairly simple. You take the 5' step as soon as the readied action is over and then proceed normally, resolving your action from your new position.

This is not attacking during the attack. This is 5 foot stepping BEFORE the attack but..

The readied action was made in response to an attack An attack you're making from square B after the 5 foot step. How does he not move within range of square B and attack?

You're abusing the timey whimey ball. You are taking an attack and moving it down time but you don't want to take the thing that goes just before the attack with it.

You're treating the 5 foot step as an interrupt action, which there's no call for it doing. It also causes a timey whimey ball. If you are moving DURING the attack.. where are you?

LIFO: last in first out. You moved, then he moves,then he aoo's, then he attacks. But his move was to be "next to you" not to a particular square.

Quote:
I do see a problem with your interpretation though. You are allowed to take a 5' step before, during, or after an action. If you deny the 5' step in response to the ready, you're insisting that we are at a point in the round that is neither before nor during the fighter's action, even though he has yet to make his attack roll.

Fallacy of composition. (see new york to LA above) Being able to 5 foot step during a full attack does not mean you can 5 foot step during any part of it.

Insulting a position as house rule when NO TWO PEOPLE agree on how this works is patently ridiculous. You're not just trying to get a 5 foot step during your attack you're trying to get it in between a response to the attack and the attack.


Hugo, you can't ready a full attack


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Hugo, you can't ready a full attack

You are absolutely right - a huge brainfart on my behalf, I'll quickly edit it thank you


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Coriat wrote:


So in other words, you understand that the rule explicitly allows taking a 5' step during an action, you just don't like the situations that (you conclude) this rule creates and prefer to keep dancing kobold alive forever instead? All right, let's look at things from this angle...

No, and saying I'm being disingenuous in my answer is not cool dude.

Not meant to imply disingenuousness, but to contrast the undesirable outcome that we all agree results from your position with that which you seem to see in mine (for reasons I don't really understand).

As for house rules or whatnot, - as I read it - the foundation of your argument is "Taking a 5' step during your action leads to consequences that BNW thinks are weird or bad" rather than "the rules don't allow a 5' step during an action because [reason]."

In other words, it seems to me to boil down to "we should throw out the 'during' part of the rules, here's why."

That's certainly how your argument has come across to me. Offense or accusations of disingenuousness not intended, and I apologize for giving it.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Sissyl wrote:
Why is it only possible to take a ready action to >wait< for a specific trigger? "I will walk toward him and if he attacks me, I will attack him first" should be just as relevant.

That's the price you pay for being able to interrupt the triggering creature. Otherwise, you can always say that you'll attack someone if they attack you - you just have to do so in reaction on your turn and give up the "first" in the sentence above.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Coriat wrote:


So in other words, you understand that the rule explicitly allows taking a 5' step during an action, you just don't like the situations that (you conclude) this rule creates and prefer to keep dancing kobold alive forever instead? All right, let's look at things from this angle...

No, and saying I'm being disingenuous in my answer is not cool dude.

"I can sleep while driving between new york and LA" means I can pull over at some point and sleep, not that I can sleep while driving.

Quote:
There's no uncertainty principle here, though, so I don't think your analogy to the cat is compelling. I think it's fairly simple. You take the 5' step as soon as the readied action is over and then proceed normally, resolving your action from your new position.

This is not attacking during the attack. This is 5 foot stepping BEFORE the attack but..

The readied action was made in response to an attack An attack you're making from square B after the 5 foot step. How does he not move within range of square B and attack?

You're abusing the timey whimey ball. You are taking an attack and moving it down time but you don't want to take the thing that goes just before the attack with it.

You're treating the 5 foot step as an interrupt action, which there's no call for it doing. It also causes a timey whimey ball. If you are moving DURING the attack. where are you?

LIFO: last in first out. You moved, then he moves,then he aoo's, then he attacks. But his move was to be "next to you" not to a particular square.

Quote:
I do see a problem with your interpretation though. You are allowed to take a 5' step before, during, or after an action. If you deny the 5' step in response to the ready, you're insisting that we are at a point in the round that is neither before nor during the fighter's action, even though he has yet to make his attack roll.

Fallacy of composition. (see new york to LA above) Being able to 5 foot step during a full attack does not mean you can 5 foot step during any part of it.

Insulting a position as house rule when NO TWO PEOPLE agree on how this works is patently ridiculous. You're not just trying to get a 5 foot step during your attack you're trying to get it in between a response to the attack and the attack.

Back to the substance.

Some people do seem to agree on it, actually, so I object to this as another exaggeration.

Link. Link. Link. Maybe more, I stopped looking after that.

I started my participation in this thread complaining about exaggerations, and by Hercules, I'm going to finish it complaining about exaggerations!

(You're just lucky you didn't say "literally," I was going to sic Kirth on you :p )

As for the rest of your post, I don't really see the applicability of your driving/sleeping metaphor. While I agree with the metaphor itself, it does not seem to bear on our discussion. I agree that I can pull over and go to sleep if I happen to be out driving, but I am at a loss as to why this should convince me that I cannot take a 5' step during a standard attack action.

I also don't really understand most of this post, or else it seems to be not really relevant to my reading of the rules. References to timey wimey balls are lost on me. Or:

Quote:


The readied action was made in response to an attack An attack you're making from square B after the 5 foot step. How does he not move within range of square B and attack?

I don't understand what you're envisioning and objecting to.

One thing I do think I understand...

Quote:
You're treating the 5 foot step as an interrupt action, which there's no call for it doing. It also causes a timey whimey ball. If you are moving DURING the attack.. where are you?

No, I'm not, and I want to be clear on this point because it seems to be often misunderstood. You take it during your own action. It does not interrupt your opponent's action in any way, but rather, it happens at a time when his action is over and done.


I guess my difficulty is "why would I want to read the rules to create this weird Schrodinger situation when I have a nice straightforward reading available in which I just take a 5' step during my attack and carry on. Oh, and bonus, I get to kill kobolds to my heart's content."

I get how you could arrive at a reading in which 5' steps during an attack are nominally rules legal but really explode spacetime, or whatever, but it hardly seems necessary.


I'm assuming there is still no official decision, correct?

Let me know if that changes


Coriat wrote:

I guess my difficulty is "why would I want to read the rules to create this weird Schrodinger situation when I have a nice straightforward reading available in which I just take a 5' step during my attack and carry on. Oh, and bonus, I get to kill kobolds to my heart's content."

I get how you could arrive at a reading in which 5' steps during an attack are nominally rules legal but really explode spacetime, or whatever, but it hardly seems necessary.

My guess is he's trying to argue that you can't take a 5-foot step while you're mid-swing, and he thinks that's what we're trying to do: Taking a 5-foot step during a swing. To a point, I understand the paradox, and why he's against it.

What I don't understand is how he's reaching that paradox (or thinking that's what we're implying should happen). It ultimately depends on what the grounds of Before, During, and After for an action constitute (which varies between action type, of course). But here's my official stance of those matters:

Before: If you make a 5-foot step prior to you roll to attack, this means the attack roll (and therefore the beginning of the attack) doesn't take place until you're in your new position, meaning you didn't attack from your previous position, and is doubly true if executing the Readied Action with a Reach weapon, since you couldn't feasibly attack with the Reach weapon in your starting position.

During: If you're making a full attack action and execute a 5-foot step, this must be executed both After an attack has been resolved, and Before a new attack begins. If you have already rolled to attack, or are going to roll for damage, it is too late to call for a 5-foot step, and you must wait between separate attacks to declare a 5-foot step. Attempting to do this with Cleave will not work, as it has its own special FAQ stating you cannot do so, because Cleave is its own special action (which has its own special limitations).

After: If you make a 5-foot step after you roll to attack, this means the attack roll (and therefore the attack) has already occurred and been resolved, meaning any positional implications you planned to take are irrelevant to the action being taken, because the action is already completed (meaning your original tactical position is the place where your attack was executed).

I'm sure many others can agree with how "Before, During, or After" relates with my assumption of how they work above. If they don't, then I wonder what kind of game they're playing...


Darksol, that interpretation is where BigNorseWolf getting is argument.
I believe we're saying that since fighter is attacking kobold he can't change his action and must attack.
Since Kobold waited till we were attacking it we've started our attack, but haven't rolled anything.
If 5ft step has to happen before or after an attack then as BigNorseWolf says, if we allowed the fighter to 5ft step to keep attacking the kobold we're allowing take backs because the fighter has to have already started his swing to trigger the readied action.

So if the fighter needed to do the 5ft step before his swing then he hasn't started his swing and the kobold is still next to him, and now the fighter doesn't need to 5ft to swing, which he'll do to triggered the kobold's readied action. Which is if we allow the 5ft before the swing is as bad as allowing the fighter do any other action, as it's letting the fighter do something that wasn't the trigger before or instead of doing the trigger.

Thus the view of no take backs would require the 5ft step to be during the actual attack, during the swing, to stay true of no take backs. Fighter starts his swing triggering Kobolds readied action, now fighter, while swinging, 5fts up to the kobold letting him finish the swing onto the kobold.

This interpretation has the fighter being able to start an attack, and then move into something and finish the attack on that thing.

So one needs to either, Not allow someone with 1 swing to hit the kobold as the kobold is always out of reach. Allow take backs. Reconcile how the rules work with starting your attack and 5ft stepping and finishing that attack against something in reach after the move but out of reach at some point of the attack.


Coriat wrote:
No, I'm not, and I want to be clear on this point because it seems to be often misunderstood. You take it during your own action. It does not interrupt your opponent's action in any way, but rather, it happens at a time when his action is over and done.

Coriat: You are taking it during your own action but you are still interrupting someone that's interrupting you. You are also causing a timey whimy ball.

The teleporting fighter held his action to you attacked. As you said, "but rather, it happens at a time when his action is over and done." his action doesn't start until you attack. You have his action over and done before you've even done the thing he's reacting too. Your character is going back in time and 5 foot stepping without correcting the rest of the time stream.

Quote:
Some people do seem to agree on it, actually, so I object to this as another exaggeration.

Literally no one has agreed on all of the rules of the chess game. No one. Not agreement on one point. A chess game where one person has casteling and another doesn't is going to look really weird even if they bth agree that the horsie moves in a little L

Quote:
As for house rules or whatnot, - as I read it - the foundation of your argument is "Taking a 5' step during your action leads to consequences that BNW thinks are weird or bad" rather than "the rules don't allow a 5' step during an action because [reason].

I have never seen taking a 5 foot step during an action read the way you're reading it. I am not throwing it out, house ruling, ignoring it or any other pejorative you want to throw at me for disagreeing with you on how a rule works. I think it works differently and the way you do it gets weird and inconsistent.

. I don't think thats how it works, i think it works like driving from new york to LA. Yes, i can sleep at any time but it still has to be in between other activities. If you could 5 foot step during another standard action cleave would be supreme cleave and they disallowed that.

it also wouldn't solve your problem with moving out of the way of the teleporting fighter. If you 5 foot stepped during your attack you're still in square A just as much as you're in square B. You're trying to claim all the benefits and none of the drawbacks as to which square you're in and what the order of opperations is and that doesn't work.

As to the problem with how to interpret the rules, I DON"T ALLOW DANCING KOBOLDS. Put baby in a corner. If you don't lock people into their actions like some sort of weird automaton you avoid most of the need for a flux capacitor and get something more realistic. Yes, you 5 foot stepped back, guesse what happens when you do that? They follow you anyway and stick a pointy object in you anyway.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I don't see the issue.

The rules are quite clear that the readied action resolves (entirely) before the triggering action.

1. Attack and....

2. Hold up. Readied action triggers.

3. Readied action attack. 5-ft step during readied action allowed. Used to move readied attacker back 5-ft.

4. Now attacker, you get to take your action. You cannot change it at this point, you still need to attack the readier, unless you physically can no longer do so (if for instance, you were paralyzed or killed or teleported to another planet from the readied action.).

5. Excellent. I will take the 5-ft. step I am allowed during my attack action, move into range and complete my attack.

The only interrupt is the one from the readier.


Kain Darkwind wrote:

I don't see the issue.

The rules are quite clear that the readied action resolves (entirely) before the triggering action.

1. Attack and....

2. Hold up. Readied action triggers.

3. Readied action attack. 5-ft step during readied action allowed. Used to move readied attacker back 5-ft.

4. Now attacker, you get to take your action. You cannot change it at this point, you still need to attack the readier, unless you physically can no longer do so (if for instance, you were paralyzed or killed or teleported to another planet from the readied action.).

5. Excellent. I will take the 5-ft. step I am allowed during my attack action, move into range and complete my attack.

The only interrupt is the one from the readier.

the problem is that the readied action is triggering off meta information, not something observable in the game world.

Every movement of a sword, every exploratory swing COULD be an attack. How does the kobold know that THIS one is the 'real' attack? Fighters don't just walk up to an opponent with their sword held limply in their hand and then wind up in a theatrical roundhouse swing to make a single attack...

Meta game knowledge. That's why this shouldn't work.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The readied action resolves entirely before the triggering action (except for spellcasting) IF the trigger was an action.

If the trigger was a condition (such as the result of an action), the readied action cannot go back in time and undo the action and thus the result that triggered it :-)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
alexd1976 wrote:
Kain Darkwind wrote:

I don't see the issue.

The rules are quite clear that the readied action resolves (entirely) before the triggering action.

1. Attack and....

2. Hold up. Readied action triggers.

3. Readied action attack. 5-ft step during readied action allowed. Used to move readied attacker back 5-ft.

4. Now attacker, you get to take your action. You cannot change it at this point, you still need to attack the readier, unless you physically can no longer do so (if for instance, you were paralyzed or killed or teleported to another planet from the readied action.).

5. Excellent. I will take the 5-ft. step I am allowed during my attack action, move into range and complete my attack.

The only interrupt is the one from the readier.

the problem is that the readied action is triggering off meta information, not something observable in the game world.

Every movement of a sword, every exploratory swing COULD be an attack. How does the kobold know that THIS one is the 'real' attack? Fighters don't just walk up to an opponent with their sword held limply in their hand and then wind up in a theatrical roundhouse swing to make a single attack...

Meta game knowledge. That's why this shouldn't work.

No this is nonsense, and the sort of nonsense that results in the 'I pump my sword menacingly' defense. Absolutely zero support for this position in the rules book.

There are mechanics that operate off 'meta' knowledge. How do I tell the difference between a guy scratching his butt and one casting a spell? I get an AoO. How can I tell if the guy is faking a punch at my face with his untrained unarmed strike? I don't get an AoO. What is the difference between a guy who pretends to pull the trigger while pointing a gun at my head and one who does? I get an AoO to take the gun away from him or stab him with my dagger, because bringing a gun to a knife fight is dumb.

There are plenty of triggering actions where the player may or may not be privy to all of the meta knowledge going on. They still trigger, and they still function.


Kain Darkwind wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
Kain Darkwind wrote:

I don't see the issue.

The rules are quite clear that the readied action resolves (entirely) before the triggering action.

1. Attack and....

2. Hold up. Readied action triggers.

3. Readied action attack. 5-ft step during readied action allowed. Used to move readied attacker back 5-ft.

4. Now attacker, you get to take your action. You cannot change it at this point, you still need to attack the readier, unless you physically can no longer do so (if for instance, you were paralyzed or killed or teleported to another planet from the readied action.).

5. Excellent. I will take the 5-ft. step I am allowed during my attack action, move into range and complete my attack.

The only interrupt is the one from the readier.

the problem is that the readied action is triggering off meta information, not something observable in the game world.

Every movement of a sword, every exploratory swing COULD be an attack. How does the kobold know that THIS one is the 'real' attack? Fighters don't just walk up to an opponent with their sword held limply in their hand and then wind up in a theatrical roundhouse swing to make a single attack...

Meta game knowledge. That's why this shouldn't work.

No this is nonsense, and the sort of nonsense that results in the 'I pump my sword menacingly' defense. Absolutely zero support for this position in the rules book.

There are mechanics that operate off 'meta' knowledge. How do I tell the difference between a guy scratching his butt and one casting a spell? I get an AoO. How can I tell if the guy is faking a punch at my face with his untrained unarmed strike? I don't get an AoO. What is the difference between a guy who pretends to pull the trigger while pointing a gun at my head and one who does? I get an AoO to take the gun away from him or stab him with my dagger, because bringing a gun to a knife fight is dumb.

There are plenty of triggering actions where the player...

Spellcasting has visual effects.

Untrained unarmed provokes because they are untrained (clumsy?)
How do you PRETEND to pull a trigger? I would allow an AoO if someone 'pretended' to pull a trigger...

Metagame knowledge is a huge problem, and should be treated as such.

It sounds to me like you are in the group of people that actually thinks fighters run up to people with their arms hanging by their sides and then wind up in a theatrical motion, telegraphing their next attack...

It's the only explanation that would allow for this 5 foot step/ready action cheese.

We have readied actions trigger off of observable things IN GAME, not actions.

If the criteria are met (the opponent APPEARS to be attacking) then the action triggers.

How can one identify charging vs a move/attack? What observable effect differentiates the two if the attacker is charging 10 feet?

If YOU choose to allow metagame knowledge triggers for readied actions, that's your business.

My group doesn't.


Chess Pwn wrote:

Darksol, that interpretation is where BigNorseWolf getting is argument.

I believe we're saying that since fighter is attacking kobold he can't change his action and must attack.
Since Kobold waited till we were attacking it we've started our attack, but haven't rolled anything.
If 5ft step has to happen before or after an attack then as BigNorseWolf says, if we allowed the fighter to 5ft step to keep attacking the kobold we're allowing take backs because the fighter has to have already started his swing to trigger the readied action.

So if the fighter needed to do the 5ft step before his swing then he hasn't started his swing and the kobold is still next to him, and now the fighter doesn't need to 5ft to swing, which he'll do to triggered the kobold's readied action. Which is if we allow the 5ft before the swing is as bad as allowing the fighter do any other action, as it's letting the fighter do something that wasn't the trigger before or instead of doing the trigger.

Thus the view of no take backs would require the 5ft step to be during the actual attack, during the swing, to stay true of no take backs. Fighter starts his swing triggering Kobolds readied action, now fighter, while swinging, 5fts up to the kobold letting him finish the swing onto the kobold.

This interpretation has the fighter being able to start an attack, and then move into something and finish the attack on that thing.

So one needs to either, Not allow someone with 1 swing to hit the kobold as the kobold is always out of reach. Allow take backs. Reconcile how the rules work with starting your attack and 5ft stepping and finishing that attack against something in reach after the move but out of reach at some point of the attack.

I still don't see the problem.

Just because you declare you're about to take an action doesn't mean that you must be in the act of doing it for the Readied Action to trigger, especially when Readied Actions explicitly state that they occur prior to the action taking place, meaning you can't have already rolled for an attack, and then you take your Readied Action, because it makes no sense. Ironically enough, this means subjects like readying to disrupt a spell would fail upon itself, since you only have to make a concentration check during the action in which you're spending to cast the spell (and not prior), and a Readied Action occurs prior to the action in question (which means you never have to make a concentration check).

If there is going to be a problem, it's with the Readied Actions' RAW because it doesn't properly express itself in the manner that RAI is intended, and it varies from case to case. I don't read into the RAW too much, because that's where the headaches begin, but it does set a basic foundation: The Readied Action, as seen by a couple written in-game options, is designed to be able to alter the results of a given action which it was readied against. The problem stems from both the Readied Actions only working at one point in time, as well as the intent behind those Readied Actions being required to be executed at different points in time, and without a complete re-write, this is about as ruined as the normal Fighter and Rogue classes.


So if you haven't started your action of attacking the kobold why did his readied action trigger for when you attack him?
Because if you haven't actually started your attack, then you should be fine to change your action. There's no take backs because you never actually started something.
So if the kobold readied for when you started your standard action then I feel you're saying the correct thing. If the Kobold is waiting for you to attack it, you'd need to have started attacking it to trigger the action. And since you've already started is why it locks you into doing that action.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
alexd1976 wrote:

Spellcasting has visual effects.

Untrained unarmed provokes because they are untrained (clumsy?)
How do you PRETEND to pull a trigger? I would allow an AoO if someone 'pretended' to pull a trigger...

Metagame knowledge is a huge problem, and should be treated as such.

It sounds to me like you are in the group of people that actually thinks fighters run up to people with their arms hanging by their sides and then wind up in a theatrical motion, telegraphing their next attack...

It's the only explanation that would allow for this 5 foot step/ready action cheese.

We have readied actions trigger off of observable things IN GAME, not actions.

If the criteria are met (the opponent APPEARS to be attacking) then the action triggers.

How can one identify charging vs a move/attack? What observable effect differentiates the two if the attacker is charging 10 feet?

If YOU choose to allow metagame knowledge triggers for readied actions, that's your business.

My group doesn't.

Your group's houserules are no concern to the rules forum. Verbal spellcasting still provokes an AoO. Silent, stilled spellcasting still provokes an AoO. Fake attacks from an untrained unarmed fighter do not provoke an AoO.

You don't have metagame knowledge of my group, so you'll probably want to stay away from assumptions about what they do and don't.

Since you like to make up "rules" like pumping swords menacingly, I don't really see what relevance your ideas have to the thread.


Chess Pwn wrote:

So if you haven't started your action of attacking the kobold why did his readied action trigger for when you attack him?

Because if you haven't actually started your attack, then you should be fine to change your action. There's no take backs because you never actually started something.
So if the kobold readied for when you started your standard action then I feel you're saying the correct thing. If the Kobold is waiting for you to attack it, you'd need to have started attacking it to trigger the action. And since you've already started is why it locks you into doing that action.

Per RAW, the Readied Action occurs before the action which triggers it. So it technically doesn't matter if you started it or not, because the Readied Action results would apply prior to the action it was readied against. This means that if you ready against a spell being cast, the effects of the Readied Action occur prior to the action itself (and this means that you can't properly disrupt the spell, because its damage occurs before the spell is being cast, not during).

Keep in mind that doesn't mean the proxy-action doesn't occur, because if it doesn't occur after the Readied Action, then the Readied Action wouldn't have taken place, which means the proxy-action would've went as normal. It just means that the effects of the Readied Action would apply before the normal action is taken, but if the Readied Action occurs on a specific proxy (such as being attacked), then that specific proxy must still be taken, otherwise the Readied Action wouldn't have occurred. If you compare, disrupting a spell (which the results must occur during the casting, otherwise it does nothing) versus attacking an enemy assaulting you (which the result defaults to occurring before the attack in question, based on general RAW) both have different tenses in which the Readied Action should occur. So this is precedent that it is on a case-by-case basis.

Regardless, I feel that the Readied Action RAW is just a mess for people to comprehensively understand, and really boils into GM FIAT territory at this point, since there really isn't much of a RAW way to explain how a Readied Action is supposed to work, as it's just an amalgamation of a bunch of corner-cases. So, I suppose maybe that does conclude a FAQ is needed, but it would honestly only be summarized in a Dev Blog Post, as a FAQ would be too short to properly answer how Readied Actions function in relation to their proxy.

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