I run some APs and have been wondering at the disparity in difficulty between one BBG and another depending on their class (sometimes on their context battle too).
...Zaksia Galembar alchemist, Isabella the sorcerer, the wreckers, Bikendi vs Harrigan/any non caster.
The casters are a possible tpk usually with a few deaths; just from looking at the obituary threads and from personal experience
It does vary upon:
- Group Composition, Preparation, Optimisation and Tactics
- Previous knowledge by PCs of BBEG or the opposite
- Luck. Them saves or suck rolls...
Considering this, I pit my players (party of 4, a divine nature caster, a monk/rogue, an occultist and a swashbuckler, all level 10 with decent wbl/optimisation) against a single cleric that knew they were coming and had fought against the party 3 levels before. They knew they were probably going to fight him too.
A level 12 cleric with 1 mythic ability (reroll spell resistance), epic point buy (25), automatic bonus progression and a little spice. No henchmen.
Focuses on channel with the aasimar feats (push/pull). Very high DC due to charisma focus, feats and traits increasing charisma and a little bump for being alone. Variant channeling but totally forgot to apply the effect even though I was halving the damage.
Prebuffed with:
Antilife shell (PCs dispelled it after 4 targeted dispels...), True seeing, Shield of Fortification, Aid, Righteous Might, Wrathful Mantle. Can fly due to aasimar wings.
Edit: and some lower level buffs with longer durations, such as Aid.
Spells cast:
Blade Barrier, Greater Dispel Magic (failed), Harm (success).
Battle:
It was painful and I was a little worried it could end in a tpk or 3 party members dead with the cleric surviving/escaping.
Cleric comes in and taunts them, they approach him and are met by his Antilife shell. The dispels from the PCs start, failing. He channels (pushes them), casts Harm with Reach (rod-mythic) and gets the swashbuckler down to 1hp. The dispels continue, failing. He quick channels, casts Blade Barrier. He's almost killed 2 people by now.
Round 3 anti life shell is dispelled..but his high buffed AC allows him to survive long enough. He channels, pushing all, and flies up in the air ready to disengage the battle (Grace spell).
Now, appart from the pre-buffing, I didnt play him too smart, for example he actually landed and let the enemies surround him cause he's arrogant. He didnt go for the sure kills as he wasnt quite interested in killing.
We didnt finish the fight, some PCs wanting to continue chasing him...even though he'd probably turn around and unload the other half of the resources he hasnt spent yet and toast at least 2 of them.
Seeing this and a few of the enemies I've played...casters with a little smart play are absolutely terrifying and I feel that if I dont play them a bit dull, they can absolutely tear a party down in a minute.
For example from Skull and Shackles, there is an illusionist ghost mage who played smartly would never fight unless he had the advantage, and even if he didnt I dont see all members of the group surviving.
What sort of experiences do you have, do you find this normal too?
Am I optimizing enemies a bit too much?
A CR 12 figher or a CR 12 cleric or a CR 12 wizard as enemies are pears, apples and oranges; how do you deal with this?
That cleric was nicely done. But I think the more bonuses you add to a villain (epic point buy, mythic power etc.), the less the class matters. A level 12 fighter with enough equipment and special abilities can mimick a caster quite well. Winged boots make a difference, Improved Eldritch Heritage opens up unusual paths (e.g. invisibility at will by fey) and potions are valid prebuffs. Combine this with the combat prowess of a full martial, the feats of a fighter (e.g. go for Two Weapon Fighting + Shield Slam + Bashing Finish) and a smart playstyle (like sneaking up on the full caster first), and you also get a dangerous encounter.
Hah! That's nothing! You should see what happens when you play someone like Karzuog at his intelligence. My PC's got down to one person before they killed him, and the Bard was barely alive at that point.
Yeah, so I can't even begin to think what a wizard can do versus a party. Do you play your casters smart and survival-style or do you make them have obvious shortcomings? (like pride of a dragon or arrogance of my above cleric?).
I'm looking for ways to for example not have Adelita (sorcerer? insert any caster here) from S&S wipe the floor with them without dumb play. I think with the cleric I patched all the weaknesses a bit too much. I dont want to get into the discussion of caster-non caster, but at these levels casters can really patch their weaknesses...and if half smart, they should (they didnt get to these levels by being unprepared push overs).
Mourge40k: I had read Karzoug was actually a push over, so a nice touch to make him use his resources properly. However he is really a last last boss so it's alright that there are some casualties.
SheepishEidolon: All the game is Epic point buy, hence so are the villains. I only added a single Mythic power (reroll the SR). No especial items apart from a negative channeling phylactery. I even forgot to debuff them with variant channeling even though i did only give them half damage. It is a fun build that I had planned as a character myself...perhaps that's the moral, dont build an NPC as you'd build a character? You have a point that the more stuff you put on definitely the more deadly it becomes. Some parties I guess have trouble with some things and others dont (a gunslinger and reach martial wouldve snuffed the cleric in 2 rounds I guess).
In a lower level battle I was running where the pcs were fighting some pirates with a wizard as backup, the wizard would sit back with magic missile and not do anything other than use it to disrupt the PC's wizard whenever he tried to cast anything. The PC wizard lost half of his spells and a lot of his HP to that. If it was everyone ganging up on the wizard (especially with their attacks of opportunity if not casting defensively), you can bet that wizard would have never gotten anything off. I used magic missile, but you could substitute that for archers or whatever really.
Not so smart this evil wizard...
Just because a creature is smart doesn't mean he/she can't make mistakes. He/she has a personality or skills(or lack thereof) or goals that could lead to certain (not smart) actions. The temptation to play them too smart leads to metagaming. The line between Smart villain and Metagamed villain is very thin.
I play with a guy that when he DMs finds it hard to separate DM knowledge and NPC knowledge. As soon as the villains exceed a certain level of Power, Intelligence or Experience (or the PIE level as I call it) they all become paranoid, super tactical geniuses and dangerously genre savvy. He thinks he is playing the villains smart, but he is really playing them Meta and it is not fun.
similar ideas
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2slt5?Killing-a-smart-dragon
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2se6e?Does-your-GM-ignore-your-immunities#7
Also, often times the spell list for npc casters in APs contain several nonoptimized spells and lack many staples. That is 1 reason Xanesha from RotRL is such a TPK machine. Her spell list looks like a PC put it together.
I like to bring up that you can't play NPCs, or BBEGs, as a player would. You need to use JRPG boss mechanics. RPG bosses typically have their ultimate attack which could kill everyone in the party if they decide to use it twice. Thankfully they are programmed to not use it twice, but there is nothing actually preventing the boss from using that ability. If you were that evil boss all you'd do is spam that when you saw how much damage it did. You need to use restraint, unless you really trust your PCs capability of dealing with such a foe.