What's the fighter's status after the WMH?
I found the book well done, giveing martial classes a lot of flavour options along with a few mechanical gems. There are a couple of things I would have done differently and a few I would have added (Torag's style for one, seems to me he's much more warlike than Calistria and Adabar) but all in all I liked the product very much.
That said what options do you feel actually improve the fighter's lot? In your opinion is the book enough to make the class competitive and interesting among the other martial classes?
I don't think the book is necessarily enough but it goes a long way. The feats, while they help just about any martial, does help the Fighter considerably since there are a lot of gems that the Fighter has plenty of room for.
Advanced Weapon Training has some pretty awesome stuff, particularly the ability to use your BAB as ranks for two skills and the ability to add your bravery bonus to will saves. One thing to note is that since many of the Advanced Weapon Training options use your Weapon Training bonus, it gives you even more of a reason to pick up Gloves of Dueling. A Sash of the War Champion is also a fairly cheap torso item that allows you to increase your Bravery bonus (also Armor Training if you care).
The Fighter is definitely in a better position and I suspect that position will only improve when the Armor Master's Handbook comes out. I think a big issue is that it's always better to have an archetype so Advanced Armor Training will hopefully put the base Fighter in a better position when compared to other martials.
The devs definitely listened to us having problems with narrative power and out of combat utility.
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I have ideas for 5 different fighters because of this book, and a fighter is likely going to be my next character. I just don't know if I'm going to go with a Weapon Master, Eldritch Guardian, Pack Mule, Unarmed Fighter, or Core.
I will say that anything that gives up weapon training is terrible now.
I don't think the book is necessarily enough but it goes a long way. The feats, while they help just about any martial, does help the Fighter considerably since there are a lot of gems that the Fighter has plenty of room for.
Advanced Weapon Training has some pretty awesome stuff, particularly the ability to use your BAB as ranks for two skills and the ability to add your bravery bonus to will saves. One thing to note is that since many of the Advanced Weapon Training options use your Weapon Training bonus, it gives you even more of a reason to pick up Gloves of Dueling. A Sash of the War Champion is also a fairly cheap torso item that allows you to increase your Bravery bonus (also Armor Training if you care).
The Fighter is definitely in a better position and I suspect that position will only improve when the Armor Master's Handbook comes out. I think a big issue is that it's always better to have an archetype so Advanced Armor Training will hopefully put the base Fighter in a better position when compared to other martials.
One problem I have with the new stuff is that despite having potentially so many feats the fighter has most of its "feat slots" taken. I mean, making bravery suddenly useful is great but it costs you a feat (or a secondary weapon training group), being able to smash spells is good but what are you going to sacrifice for the chance to do that (besides it doesn't work against the really egregius stuff running around like enervation that doesn't allow a save)?
More options are always good but it seems to me in the case of the fighter there's still a lot to do because just adding options (unless they are clearly overpowered of course) isn't going to change the original class weaknesses.|
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Yes it costs feats, but for the most part, feats aren't that great.
Class features are supposed to be better than feats. This is why extra rage power or extra revelation or extra hex are so good. Most of the Advanced Weapon Training options are better than feats, and you can automatically take them by sacrificing an unneeded extra weapon training group or by taking a feat.
This isn't even taking into account the magic item mastery feats, which are excellent. Flight Mastery is one of the best feats written and fixes one of the long time issues of the martial/caster divide.
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Even better at fighting than they already were.
They have even more combat options that can make previously bad combat styles good, and allow you to do some unusual things that you could previously like finesse whole classes of weapons that you wouldn't otherwise be able to.
However, fighters have always been pretty good at combat in the first place. And this book while opening up new options, doesn't provide that many options that allow them to do things besides deal damage better or in new ways.
The one notable exception I can think of is the abilities that allow you to coax abnormal magical effects out of magic items (using UMD, IIRC). Like causing a magic item to cast fly for you.
IMO, fighters remain basically were they were because they didn't get much ability to do more things, just the same things better. Of course, I didn't really expect it since this is the Weapon Master's Handbook and would focus mostly on combat.
Yes it costs feats, but for the most part, feats aren't that great.
True, but unfortunately there already are more than 20/21 feats that are "great" for a fighter, so you have to choose, which is fine but it's something other classes can sometimes avoid doing (and I keep hearing the old adagio "fighters are for people who don't want a complicated class..." fighters are probably the most complicated martial class to master because of the sheer amount of options and traps!)
Class features are supposed to be better than feats. This is why extra rage power or extra revelation or extra hex are so good. Most of the Advanced Weapon Training options are better than feats, and you can automatically take them by sacrificing an unneeded extra weapon training group or by taking a feat.
I'm not so sure about the assumption that class features are SUPPOSED to be better than feats. Seems to me it was something that happened gradually over time, not something really intended. And to be clear SOME of the Advanced Weapon Training options are as good as good feats, it's not like all feats are just horrible (fortunately).
This isn't even taking into account the magic item mastery feats, which are excellent. Flight Mastery is one of the best feats written and fixes one of the long time issues of the martial/caster divide.
True that but it still has more than a few requirements: 3 ranks in use magic device, at least lvl 8th (fort +6) and having an item with a transmutation spell of 2nd level of higher as construction requirement (and let's just say that in case of armors at least there are not that many good +1 magic abilities...)
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True that but it still has more than a few requirements: 3 ranks in use magic device, at least lvl 8th (fort +6) and having an item with a transmutation spell of 2nd level of higher as construction requirement (and let's just say that in case of armors at least there are not that many good +1 magic abilities...)
3 ranks in UMD is trivial, You can have fort +6 at third level if you multiclass (not the best option, but it's there), and every stat enhancement belt has a transmutation spell of 2nd level as a construction requirement. A STR or DEX belt is something almost every martial character has.
Even better at fighting than they already were.
They have even more combat options that can make previously bad combat styles good, and allow you to do some unusual things that you could previously like finesse whole classes of weapons that you wouldn't otherwise be able to.
However, fighters have always been pretty good at combat in the first place. And this book while opening up new options, doesn't provide that many options that allow them to do things besides deal damage better or in new ways.
The one notable exception I can think of is the abilities that allow you to coax abnormal magical effects out of magic items (using UMD, IIRC). Like causing a magic item to cast fly for you.
IMO, fighters remain basically were they were because they didn't get much ability to do more things, just the same things better. Of course, I didn't really expect it since this is the Weapon Master's Handbook and would focus mostly on combat.
On this I strongly disagree: the whole book gives the fighter a wealth of options to do different things than just cause more damage to opponents, aside from some suboptimal fighting styles (like light blades with finesse when dealing damage) the book doesn't do much to boost damage options. What it does is giving a lot of different options to the fighter but then it need to choose between these new and diverse things and being quite good at causing damage because of how the fighter base class works.
3 ranks in UMD is trivial, You can have fort +6 at third level if you multiclass (not the best option, but it's there), and every stat enhancement belt has a transmutation spell of 2nd level as a construction requirement. A STR or DEX belt is something almost every martial character has.
True that but it still has more than a few requirements: 3 ranks in use magic device, at least lvl 8th (fort +6) and having an item with a transmutation spell of 2nd level of higher as construction requirement (and let's just say that in case of armors at least there are not that many good +1 magic abilities...)
With a class as MAD as the fighter with only 2 skill points per level I won't call an investment on an ability related to a stat used by most fighters as THE dump stat a "trivial investment".
Multiclassing to increase base fort bonus is not really an option as you admit yourself.
Yet you can use your enanchment bonus instead of your dex (generally not that high of a stat for fighters unless they do archer) only if you use an armor with a transmutation effect as requirement.
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A trait can make UMD int-based if cha is dumped, and UMD is one of the best skills in the game anyway. This is even better if you're a lore warden/tactician/pack mule with 4 skills per level. As for the fly skill, armor enhancement bonus instead of dex bonus is a very small boost since I never make a fighter with a dex under 14 anyway.
More options are always good but it seems to me in the case of the fighter there's still a lot to do because just adding options (unless they are clearly overpowered of course) isn't going to change the original class weaknesses.
Oh I agree, which is why I think Advanced Armor Training is a good idea. A lot of people already trade out Armor Training via archetypes because it provides no benefit to them. I think a good goal to aim for is to make Advanced Armor Training competitive with archetypes like Mutation Warrior. The Weapon Master's Handbook was a very pleasant surprise especially for a Player Companion so I hope the authors of the Armor Master's Handbook realise that the expectation will likely be very high.
I would disagree that this just made fighters do more damage. I think there are actually a considerable number of options in here that let the fighter do things it couldn't do previously, and in some cases, things that other classes can't so at all. Look at the Difficult Swings weapon mastery feat, for example. Is there another class that can create 8 squares of rough terrain that only affects enemies as a free action when you make a full round attack? That's a solid battlefield control effect.
A trait can make UMD int-based if cha is dumped, and UMD is one of the best skills in the game anyway. This is even better if you're a lore warden/tactician/pack mule with 4 skills per level. As for the fly skill, armor enhancement bonus instead of dex bonus is a very small boost since I never make a fighter with a dex under 14 anyway.
In order to make use of a magic item via UMD your average not sub par at what he's expected to do (killing stuff) fighter would need to wait at least until level 10 while maxing UMD. Spending a trait in order to switch chat to int while suing UMD isn't exactly the best of options for fighters anyway (not when there are several traits giving you much more of an edge in combat, which is still the fighters primary and secondary role in a party). That's exactly the opposite of "trivial" in my book.
Did anyone notice how few uses per day a Magic Item Mastery feat has? Should have been 3 uses straight away instead of 3 over 20 levels.
After all you're spending either 2 feats or are forced to pick a fighter to take it.
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Did anyone notice how few uses per day a Magic Item Mastery feat has? Should have been 3 uses straight away instead of 3 over 20 levels.
After all you're spending either 2 feats or are forced to pick a fighter to take it.
How are you spending two feats? They are available to anyone who qualifies, not just fighters. The use per day is disappointing, but it's still great even so. At least it's not just one/day set in stone.
Did anyone notice how few uses per day a Magic Item Mastery feat has? Should have been 3 uses straight away instead of 3 over 20 levels.
After all you're spending either 2 feats or are forced to pick a fighter to take it.
How are you spending two feats? They are available to anyone who qualifies, not just fighters. The use per day is disappointing, but it's still great even so. At least it's not just one/day set in stone.
If once per day was really enough then a ring of spell storing is a better investment.
3 ranks in UMD is trivial, You can have fort +6 at third level if you multiclass (not the best option, but it's there), and every stat enhancement belt has a transmutation spell of 2nd level as a construction requirement. A STR or DEX belt is something almost every martial character has.
True that but it still has more than a few requirements: 3 ranks in use magic device, at least lvl 8th (fort +6) and having an item with a transmutation spell of 2nd level of higher as construction requirement (and let's just say that in case of armors at least there are not that many good +1 magic abilities...)
A Str or Dex belt is not a piece of armor, technically...so unless the language is just magic item, exactly how many pieces of magic armor are out there with cheap transmutation effects that you would want?
Or are they specifically making exceptions for gaunts and belts? Because Gloves of Dueling very specifically are transmutation. And Celestial Mail would be, too.
==Aelryinth
It's any magic item except for those that can only be used a limited amount of times or those that have to be charged (so exluding elixirs, potions, wands, staffs, scrolls and limited use wondrous items like dust of disappearance pretty much)
It's any magic item except for those that can only be used a limited amount of times or those that have to be charged (so exluding elixirs, potions, wands, staffs, scrolls and limited use wondrous items like dust of disappearance pretty much)
Magic item mastery cannot be used in conjunction with elixirs, potions, scrolls, staffs, and wands. In order to use it you need items with constant effects or daily uses at least.
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ah, then no problem. Stat buffers and Gloves of Dueling would solve that problem.
Although they should have made it BAB minutes/day, instead of uses/day, allowing for multiple uses and shorter time periods, sort of like how Boots of Speed break up the Haste Spell attached to it.
As a matter of fact, that's how I'd probably house rule it, myself.
==Aelryinth
ah, then no problem. Stat buffers and Gloves of Dueling would solve that problem.
Although they should have made it BAB minutes/day, instead of uses/day, allowing for multiple uses and shorter time periods, sort of like how Boots of Speed break up the Haste Spell attached to it.
As a matter of fact, that's how I'd probably house rule it, myself.
==Aelryinth
That would make it worth a feat.
Quite solid, especially if you incorporate some stuff from Unchained (namely Background Skills though the Combat Stamina and Tricks system does get some interesting options). Versatile Training and Armed Bravery are great boons to any fighter that can take them. Focused Weapon is great for TWF builds (that dual-wield two of the same weapon or wield a single double weapon) or crit-fishers looking to boost their base damage.
While most of the melee weapon mastery feats didn't impress me (in comparison to the ranged weapon mastery feats) outside of Cut from the Air, Smash from the Air, and Weapon Style Mastery; they at least open up interesting design space. Speaking of which, the Divine Fighting Techniques, Magic Item Mastery feats, along with Weapon Tricks for the broad categories of fighting styles are definitely things I want to see more of, and from the sound of Armor Master's Handbook and Magic Tactics Toolbox I'll at least get my wish for some of those in the near future.
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A trait can make UMD int-based if cha is dumped, and UMD is one of the best skills in the game anyway. This is even better if you're a lore warden/tactician/pack mule with 4 skills per level. As for the fly skill, armor enhancement bonus instead of dex bonus is a very small boost since I never make a fighter with a dex under 14 anyway.In order to make use of a magic item via UMD your average not sub par at what he's expected to do (killing stuff) fighter would need to wait at least until level 10 while maxing UMD. Spending a trait in order to switch chat to int while suing UMD isn't exactly the best of options for fighters anyway (not when there are several traits giving you much more of an edge in combat, which is still the fighters primary and secondary role in a party). That's exactly the opposite of "trivial" in my book.
You get one combat trait at most anyways... Few of them as useful as access to a couple buff spells or healing as needed, though party comp can change that.. Honestly the skill traits tend to be some of the better ones since they're about on par with a <albeit crappy> feat so spending your other trait to get an int based UMD to use a few wands and scrolls is hardly the worst thing you can do to yourself. Fighters have a low base skill cap admittedly but if you're a human with the int min for combat expertise and satisfied with your hitpoints and CMD you're looking at 5 skill points per level which while not great is serviceable.