so for reasons that would take tons of writing, none of my players characters are capable or able to be decent kings. no one would like to live in cities ruled by people like them (even when some of them are good people, reason is mostly looks and lore of my own made world)
but still they all want to be kings (of coarse).
has anyone had something like this happen to them?what did you do or how did you make your players realize that they characters just couldn't be ale to be good kings and they can take some other leadership positions or lead from shadows, or do some big council of people who all lead the nation with democracy? (none of them like these ideas, doesn't fit characters and i understand that)
PS:i warned my players about this TONS of time before starting the AP and when making characters with them, they knew this was going to happen at some point.
I'd love to give you some kind of advice here, but honestly I have nothing to base advice on, so you're going to have to give more information on why you think they won't make good kings. From what little you've said so far, I'm on your PCs side instead of yours. Not trying to be offensive here, but with only this little information its hard to do otherwise.
Since the details are a little vague, I'm going to imagine that the PCs are all orcs trying to rule over a kingdom of humans, since that would fit the description, even though it's obviously not that.
In that situation I'd suggest rather than trying to talk the players out of it, I'd let them run things their way, but apply realistic penalties to the stability of the kingdom. The more 'visible' the PCs are, the bigger the penalties. If the PCs prove themselves as champions of the people, this would reduce the level of prejudice and the size of the penalties. Presumably there'd be more popular figures on the council who could give practical advice to the PCs.
This assumes they can sort things out among themselves - they may all want to be kings but they can't all be kings if there's only one kingdom.
What is stopping them from being evil kings?
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History is full of leaders who could not possibly be accepted... until they were.
K.R. Narayanan... President of India despite being born 'Untouchable'?
Barrack Hussein Obama?
And those are examples where people CHOSE their leader. Leadership by power removes a lot of 'cultural barriers'. French kings once ruled England. English kings ruled Scotland. Germany ruled France. Japan subjugated China.
That said, even accepting your premise I don't see the problem. One or more of them declares their rule over an area. The people rise up in revolt against being ruled by those people who made the area safe for them to live in. They flee the area and no new settlers move in. Even kobolds and local monsters the group managed to pacify flee the area in disgust at the thought of being led by these horrors. Not even others of their own hideous kind want anything to do with the possibility of a homeland where they could live in peace.
In short, play it out. They can be rulers of the grass and trees (or would those flee too?). May be more difficult to hold off invading armies (if anyone willing to go to that awful place could be found) with no troops, but at least they won't have to worry about civilian casualties.
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As long as no one wants to be an emperor cartagia.... you are fine.
Back to the question.
Why is no one fit to be a ruler?
No one has a positiv cha bonus?
Everyone is a murder hobo?
Everyone wants to be king?
More info would be appreciated.
We need more reasons about why they are unfit to rule.
I doubt they are truly unfit, so much as the people wont accept them for some reason.
Well, in such a case the PCs use tyranny and might to establish their country. In this case, Might makes Right. And the PCs will exercise that right and establish their domain whether anyone else likes it or not.
Henry VIII spent his time hunting, warring and seducing women. He was a terrible diplomat, had a famous temper, played favourites and left a slew of broken alliances in his past.
Luckily he had some extremely competent statesmen that kept the coffers full and gave him enough time to do whatever he wanted to. Otherwise he would probably be remembered for very different reasons.
Having run the first three books of Kingmaker, if I recall the AP is written to allow very little actual day to day kingdom management if that's what your party wants. There is nothing wrong with keeping the exploring and conquering for the PCs and allow the various councilors to actually run the kingdom.
The PCs become heads of state but have very few duties and most of them ceremonial. One piece of advice I would give is don't give the PCs access to the kingdom building rules. Discuss things in the abstract with them and operate the rules in the background if you choose to do so. The kingdom campaign rules are so open to abuse it is untrue but they are a great springboard to campaign ideas. Just based on my experiences.
ok iam writing some more info because people asked
so first of all, we use my own made setting and kingmaker takes place in east part of the land. Players characters were given task to make the place habitable and start building village/town there because their previous country was destroyed and is slowly collapsing and some people believed that its time to start a new.
well the setting is low magic, magic is extremely scary and horrible and most people dislike it. If village has wizard and some problem then most people assume wizard=source of problem (because honestly, who sane person learns how to do fireballs?) during many hundreds of years there has also been many evil wizards and people have tendency to forget all the good wizards and remember only the bad ones.
elfs are sub-race of humans and children of those ancient humans that moved to magical forests to safety because they were hunted due to their magical abilities.There have been multiple wars between elfs and humans during last few hundred years, In other words, elfs are hated because they are human 2.0 and better in many aspects and they show it to any human they see (humans just out breed them so humans win with numbers)
now some of you readers must have realized already why iam telling all this. Here are my players characters:
Elf Wizard who is narcissistic and believes humans are trash, he only works with humans to use them.
Half-elf undead Summoner who regularly prays to demons and hates his human side.
human slayer who is hot headed killer and believes all problems are solved with shooting people with arrows fast before problems are even born. his silent and lets his bow/sword do most of talking and acts before knowing enough details (and has caused some problems with it already)
so 2 of my players are something that 90% of humandoid races hate (that 10% being elfs themselves, fairies, tree-men and elf sympathizers) and last one told me that he actually doenst want to be king because that would take too much time from his other plans. (we had some talk about this problem hour ago with him)
and as i told, players knew that many people would hate them if they made elf or caster characters (or undead, thats even more visible)
Did you have a conversation with them about the game and say "you guys need to make characters that would want to be courtly folks"?
The PCs become heads of state but have very few duties and most of them ceremonial. One piece of advice I would give is don't give the PCs access to the kingdom building rules. Discuss things in the abstract with them and operate the rules in the background if you choose to do so. The kingdom campaign rules are so open to abuse it is untrue but they are a great springboard to campaign ideas. Just based on my experiences.
well that would be nice but my players like the rules (they have read them little) and want to actually do political things because fighting and adventuring becomes boring after a while and its nice to have something completely different. i try to talk with them more and go with the council thing (there would be something like 6-10 people who all take care of different parts of kingdom, all are "kings", players would have place in it too)
Stop being so uptight, let them have their courtly intrigue, and don't get so wrapped up in the racist s~!# against the Elves.
One of them could get a Hat of Disguise or similar item and pose as a human and not cast spells in public?
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Frankly, you might be able to make this into a profoundly awesome start to a Kingmaker game. It sounds like they're poised to revolutionize the history of your world if they play their cards right (and what loftier achievement for a PC?). They can be like Magneto and his justifiably-darkhearted affiliates, and found a kingdom by the elves/undead/other feared and maligned folk, of the elves/undead/other feared and maligned folk, for the elves/undead/other feared and maligned folk. UP THE REVOLUTION!
Well i let them go how they want for now and not stop them or anything, if the elf or half elf characters become the king then i just reduce the amount of people that come to this newly found country and make citizens just not trust their king all that much and some other problems, makes things just more fun when they need to solve all those problems!
i write again after few sessions to tell how all goes down, my players have surprised me so many times that iam sure they will come up with something that i have not prepared for at all.
It's sounds that you have got yourself in a bit of trouble. Your vision is of one world and your players have designed characters fit for another. It is a bit like running Way of the Wicked with a load of chaotic good PCs. At this stage you probably have a few options...
- Redo the PCs with characters that would have some interest or ability in playing in the campaign you have written. TBH this is the least satisfactory solution and may like annoy your players or completely derail the campaign if they have less attachment to their second characters.
- Alter the campaign. It sounds like you have some really cool ideas for a setting - it reminds me a lot of Birthright. Perhaps your realm can be founded as a place of tolerance for the elven and fey in a world that otherwise hates them. Perhaps the cruel fey will protect your realm but you have a constant tension between humanity. Can't the PCs attract/populate the realm with people who don't hate elves as a matter of course - have the hatred come from outside which will unite the people of your kingdom and give them points of conflict with their neighbours.
There is also nothing wrong with the council ruling a kingdom. Neither is there a problem with them ruling through fear or demonic worship. However you do need a plausible reason whuy people would live there - incredible resources/fleeing persecution elsewhere etc.
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...during many hundreds of years there has also been many evil wizards...
Did any of those ever happen to rule a territory?
Anyway, I continue to urge you to play it out. Yep, there are absolutely reasons for people to be concerned about those three leading them. Would certainly lead to unrest and agitators against their rule. So have that and see how they handle it. They could try to slowly win people over or crush all resistance. If they want to try to run a kingdom despite major obstacles... let them. Maybe they'll surprise you and come up with creative solutions to hold it all together. If not, the disastrous collapse could still be an interesting story.
Damn. Kingmaker is pretty hard enough keeping up with unrest...
If I recall correctly, 'winning' the kingdom-building rules mainly consisted of not expanding rapidly over large amounts of land, to ensure that the DCs are low enough to pass all stability/loyalty rolls on a 2.
Apart from a very few encounters, Kingmaker is really not an integrated campaign with the kingdom building rules. You can't take money from it out without incurring huge penalties, there isn't much in the way of foreign diplomacy, what it has is a war and a threat against the country. Put a bit of thought into it, and put the PCs as troubleshooters for an NPC king. They want to kill stuff and adventure. Kingmaker has that in spades, and you don't need to play politics for it.
I think they want to play politics Sissyl
Well i let them go how they want for now and not stop them or anything, if the elf or half elf characters become the king then i just reduce the amount of people that come to this newly found country and make citizens just not trust their king all that much and some other problems, makes things just more fun when they need to solve all those problems!
i write again after few sessions to tell how all goes down, my players have surprised me so many times that iam sure they will come up with something that i have not prepared for at all.
That seems silly. Why?
Consider all the oppressed elves who would probably be happy to rush to a new kingdom where their leader is an elf (or half-elf) like them and they can be comforted in the knowledge that they (probably) wont be treated like second class citizen's and be protected under the law. This kingdom would probably have elves clamoring to be let in. Beyond that there are bound to be some humans who don't care that elves are different.
You've created a racist world, but even in our real racist world people helped and cared for those of other races. It was not always popular to treat people of other races with respect, but it certainly happened.
As for wizards being unwelcome, what if the kingdom set itself up as obviously wizard friendly? Founded a wizard college. Suddenly, wizards all across the world are coming here where they are welcome. You know what wizards are good at? Magic. You know what can help build a country? Magic.
I feel like you're just making up reasons to penalize your players, when you should just be thinking up reasons why it could just work like the mechanics present.
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I feel like you're just making up reasons to penalize your players, when you should just be thinking up reasons why it could just work like the mechanics present.
Well... 'demon worshiping undead' might reasonably raise one or two concerns.
The whole, 'elves & wizards welcome!', bit certainly makes sense... except that it would make everyone else in the setting even LESS likely to want to be there.
If you want to see details and fluff along with some plot hooks and NPCs look at the old AD&D stuff doe Birthright - in particular Secrets of Tuarhuviel - it was a reclusionist elf kingdom ruled by. A half elf if I recall correctly.
There is a lot of possibility for magic trade, spell components and minor items, maybe rate woods etc a little bit like the red wizards of thay. People don't like them but they recognise the value and the trade.
I feel like you're just making up reasons to penalize your players, when you should just be thinking up reasons why it could just work like the mechanics present.Well... 'demon worshiping undead' might reasonably raise one or two concerns.
The whole, 'elves & wizards welcome!', bit certainly makes sense... except that it would make everyone else in the setting even LESS likely to want to be there.
Chaotic evil empires have to come from some place. You know, until the death of their evil king leaves a power vacancy and the royal threat of force disappears and the ensuing race to claim the throne results in an implosion of the empire.
Has either elf-blooded PCs considered courting a human that is loved by the other 90%?
A marriage of convenience is nothing new in kingly politics...
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I don't see why you couldn't have the PCs' kingdom attract elves, other outcasts, and general misfits. And by being that sort of kingdom, ruled by elves and wizards, that's just one more motivation for neighboring countries to be in conflict.
So everyone failed to notice that the AP is called Kingmaker.....
well its not that they didn't notice, i warned them and told them multiple times that elfs, undead and wizards will have hard time to get peoples trust and that people will be racist and hateful toward magic, but they said that "well that will make things just lot more fun and interesting!", which is completely true, there have been tons of problem with paladin NPC who fears magic and dislikes undead (he has yet to notice that one of the players is undead, he masks it well) and at times its super hard to hide their zombie girl friend that they have with them apparently as "experiment" (they found it on way to the kingmaker campaign during "tutorial" of game mechanics).
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Make a kingdom of elfs, undead, wizards and demons. If the rest of the world does not like them then they can come here!
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Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free and we'll arm them and make you the tired and poor.
...breathe?
yeah statue of liberty that's what it says breathe.
Ok so we had Session today, stag lord was killed, his castle taken over and bandits who took players side were spared and promised new start and better lives.
My players decided after some thinking that none of their characters had any charisma or skill to rule alone. So they went with the council route and now everyone with leadership role has same amount of power in the council (this way they could all also take role that fir their characters more and sounded more fun), "Ruler" is just a person who publicly speaks and is the voice and face of this council.
i believe that this is best way how things could have gone, they still plan all having own individual villages to watch over witch is fine and good.
iam just somewhat worried about the look of this council, it consists of paladin, warrior, ex criminal, wizard elf, Undead demon worshiper, Religious fanatic, random citizen, Daemon as official executioner and its public face is mostly blind dude who has hard time walking without hitting things and on top of that his half possessed by daemon (not the bad kind but it might affect things)
well i check where all this goes and hope for best. This is bound to be super interesting and bring some strange times on my world and maybe even something that's written down on history.
well the setting is low magic, magic is extremely scary and horrible and most people dislike it. If village has wizard and some problem then most people assume wizard=source of problem (because honestly, who sane person learns how to do fireballs?) during many hundreds of years there has also been many evil wizards and people have tendency to forget all the good wizards and remember only the bad ones.
So, basically every existing magic user is a living god assumed to have inscrutable and seemingly limitless powers (besides just objectively having very little in the way of real obstacles), and people primarily remember how horrible magic users can be to those who disobey them.
Not seeing any problem here.
elfs are sub-race of humans and children of those ancient humans that moved to magical forests to safety because they were hunted due to their magical abilities.There have been multiple wars between elfs and humans during last few hundred years, In other words, elfs are hated because they are human 2.0 and better in many aspects and they show it to any human they see (humans just out breed them so humans win with numbers)
So, some elves decided to go the smart route and turns themselves into royalty while keeping humans as peasants.
Still not seeing any problems here. In real life more warlike and vigorous groups of people did it all the time, without actually being superhuman. Given the description of your PCs, they would actually revel in drinking their subjects' tears of impotent hatred.
iam just somewhat worried about the look of this council, it consists of paladin, warrior, ex criminal, wizard elf, Undead demon worshiper, Religious fanatic, random citizen, Daemon as official executioner and its public face is mostly blind dude who has hard time walking without hitting things and on top of that his half possessed by daemon (not the bad kind but it might affect things)
Well, at least there will be fun, even if their rule will not be very smooth! I'm glad that you and your group have found a way proceed.