|
| 18 people marked this as a favorite. |
For some groups they are too long; for others (though a smaller number) they are too short.
But what these are, in reality? Is exactly what they need to be. They are, by any objective standard that counts, almost perfect.
Pathfinder AP is the life blood of a company that lost its license to print Dungeon and Dragon Magazine. And in the course of doing so, and having no business at all -- these guys looked at the possibilities and rolled forward without laying off a single staff member.
How successful was that? The AP line is an evolutionary step in adventure design which is now at Issue #100. That's a design that has stood the test of time -- and then some.
That is a serious milestone in this business. And it IS a business.
What makes a product so overwhelmingly successful that a full color 96 page book with custom artwork and the highest production quality levels in the business can lat for #100 consecutive issues? The answer is: commercial success.
What you see before you every month is that and more. It is successful because it is what it needs to be in order to BE and remain a success.
And these are a commercial success. Each adventure in each issue of PF AP is as long as one developer can manage to develop over the required time span. They simply can't go longer. The APs are as long as they need to be in order to fill a production schedule based on 1 issue a month, 2 APs a year because those are the commercial subscription realities in the business in which they are engaged. And it is that monthly subscription that made everything here on this website possible from the get go -- and it continues to keep the lights on.
If they were making stand alone adventure books from scratch without a deadline, we probably would see a *somewhat* different design.
But they aren't and we don't. Adventure Paths are a commercial product, meant to fulfill a customer demand and roll out within a tightly constrained production schedule. Stray off the edge but a little and it is a cash flow nightmare in the offing.
And one other thing. In the more than 41 years that have now passed since the Original D&D was created? In all that time, through every edition of the game that has ever been made?
Pathfinder AP is the most detailed, longest running and most commercially successful module line for any RPG ever released. Ever.
Seems to me that whatever Paizo is doing? They are doing it better than even they expected -- and better than any of us ever dreamed they would, Once Upon a Time, whether a fan in the business or a professional manufacturing or selling RPG products.
The cancellation of Dungeon Magazine was my darkest moment as a fan of D&D since 1977. Nothing else made me as angry or as bitter and disappointed as a fan as that event at the time.
And while that remains true, it also turns out that it was the best thing that ever happened to me as fan of the game too. It just took a while for that to reveal itself. And it was the best RPG thing that ever happened to you, too.
I am not saying APs are perfect (though at the time of its publication, issues #26 was as close to perfect as they ever got, imo). God knows I criticize and deconstruct every single AP I play or run after the fact. (It's my sub-hobby within my RPG hobby.) But I do that with such seriousness only because I enjoy them all and the product line so very much, and appreciate everything they represent about the game.
We have never, ever, had it so good. It's never been better than this.
Here's to issue #101-200. Salut!
Beautifully said! Well done! Bravo!
I sort of view it as that too...in a way.
I see the AP's as the evolution of Dragon and Dungeon (WotC's online thing Dragon and Dungeon it was not).
You have mostly a Dungeon type mag, but with aspects and articles like Dragon (but not as many).
In a way, the subscription is a continuation of the other two.
The difference is I can honestly say I never subscribed to the other two. I picked them up at the store.
I do subscribe to Paizo's APs though.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Dungeon Magazine was quite enjoyable. A GM with a sufficient archive of Dungeons could actually knit together the varied adventures and do a small campaign. It might not be totally coherent, like the APs tend toward, but it's still doable.
In fact, I was doing that prior to finding Paizo's APs and running Reign of Winter (which fell apart sadly - scheduling issues).
My one regret is that I never did take the adventure ideas I had and submit them to Dungeon before it went under. Then again, for several years I wasn't even able to look at a gaming book without suffering migraines (bad GM burnout) so I missed Paizo's initial rise. ^^;;
Have you considered RPG Superstar.
Never heard of it and I've other things on my plate these days to fill my time. Heck, part of the reason I buy APs is to save time.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
TL;DR - I am a massive AP fanboy.
I love the APs more or less as they are. There are some hits and misses, but Paizo are putting material out every single month so I can forgive them for that.
I'm currently playing one AP (Rise of the Runelords) and GMing four (Second Darkness, Legacy of Fire, Mummy's Mask and Iron Gods) with different groups. Like a lot of people, I'm a busy adult with a full-time job and various other commitments. I would never be able to play as much, with as many of my friends, if I was having to write whole bunches of stuff for campaigns.
We tend to get through an AP in around two years, so there's always something new to move on to by the time we're done as well.
My only (small) problem with APs has been touched upon already, and I think Paizo are doing a good job of addressing it. The title of the AP can either be a dead giveaway (Rise of the Runelords) even when the actual threat doesn't really get revealed until about halfway through, or complete nonsense (Serpent's Skull) which doesn't mean anything to anyone until part five or six. The more recent ones have had a better balance as a relevant teaser, so even that one gripe is diminishing.
For some groups they are too long; for others (though a smaller number) they are too short.
.
.
.
.
.
Here's to issue #101-200. Salut!
This. Brilliantly put.
AP volumes are without a doubt the most usable RPG content I have ever come across in 30 odd years engaged in this wonderful hobby of ours. I have every single one (despite lapsing my subs occasionally when finances required it and having to catch up) and I intend to get the next 100 as well.
Use them as setting books, use them as standalone adventures or use them as intended but this is the model that works for Paizo and clearly the one that works for a lot of us so let's not tinker with it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
No plan survives contact with the players. That especially includes AP's.
On the other hand, I've found that a focused small group can really tear through some material. My CotCT group with two people will finish book 1 in four 5 hour long gaming sessions, and I actually added in some content (I wrote a fair for the introduction and added in St. Casperian's from Skull and Shackles).
On the other hand, I also use a "I tell you when you level up" method of handing out XP, instead of giving XP for every spider squished and kobold killed. I've found that tends to encourage diplomatic and stealthy solutions which take less time.
Every game, especially including AP's, have to have some level of DM-fiat. I've cut encounters short when we were running low on time and wanted to get to a good stopping point or when I felt that I was losing player interest. I've also added in content or substituted content from other AP's/ publishers/ etc when what was written didn't appeal to me or the group. The key is to find the bullet points that need to be conveyed in order to move the plot along and convey them in an entertaining manner. That doesn't mean sticking to the AP at all costs.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'll chip in again, after having read all the comments and I think there is some take away for me personally (so a big thank you for all the input) and in general. Let's start with the general opinion:
- Most people are quite happy with the length and the format of the APs (with a few outliers in both directions)
- Most folks acknowledge that APs have some designchoices that they disaprove of and that the DM needs to customise to his and the groups liking
This leads to what I've learned from this thread so far:
- Cut parts, which seem unnecessary and don't tie in to the story (I think the choking tower is the worst offender of this I've encountered so far)
- Reduce dungeon crawl (I find it rather monotone)
- move to fast XP track or rather award level ups similar to the way the APs propose
I'd like to add that Iron Gods is the first AP I have GMed from start to finish (I have taken over a Kingmaker campaign around the third or second book, can't remember exactly). Your feedback will help me to prepare for the Hell's Rebels campaign in a more efficnet and hopefully even more satisfying way.
I wanted to address my intial post, because as I've read it again, it looks overly negative. I'm quite happy with the APs in general and they are great tools to work of and get inspiration from. Also designing your own encounters takes twice the time (at least for me).
I still think, that not every adventure needs an extra-dimensional conclusion, fighting a super-being trying to save a region. APs like Kingmaker are all about exploration and building in the first books and then gets derailed into another plane, which I still feel is unnecessary (and again that's my opinion, which I know isn't the most popular one). Hell's Rebels looks from the description, like it could very well end after book 4 and I'm fine with that, I know I don't have to use it all.
Also, I didn't take Paizo's point of view into consideration, as I know very little about how these products are designed and created. Being able to plan a more streamlined product is surely a huge plus for them, so thank you guys for pointing that out.
I still think, that not every adventure needs an extra-dimensional conclusion, fighting a super-being trying to save a region.
Try Skulls and Shackles, then! Nothing extra-dimensional and you're not so much trying to save a region as take it over...
Admittedly, most APs do seem to focus on "save (region) from (slow-burning but finally getting around to it BBEG)"* but I think that's less a function of their length than of that being a fairly typical campaign format, regardless of whatever a given company's policies are.
Well, that, and you have all these high-CR beasties you need to justify showing up in large enough numbers that they'd ravage the average ecology on a non-extraplanar setting.
*Obligatory Crimson Throne Love- While CotCT absolutely fits the pattern of "wow, so the ultimate evil is only getting its ultimate evil on right as we have what we need to take it down," at least the bad guys do things while the PCs are otherwise occupied.
Kingmaker doesn't really have any "save the region" aspect. I mean, there might be a nearby petty tyrant who could control some of the untamed wilderness if the PCs don't do anything. But the stakes are mostly "local" .
Of course, there is an extra-dimensional chapter, but if you really don't like it, it can be easily removed or ignored. In fact, Kingmaker is probably the most flexible of APs since it's really easy to add or remove specific adventures or events. In fact, just parts 1-3 would make an excellent short AP.
Creative Director
|
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Kingmaker doesn't really have any "save the region" aspect. I mean, there might be a nearby petty tyrant who could control some of the untamed wilderness if the PCs don't do anything. But the stakes are mostly "local" .
Of course, there is an extra-dimensional chapter, but if you really don't like it, it can be easily removed or ignored. In fact, Kingmaker is probably the most flexible of APs since it's really easy to add or remove specific adventures or events. In fact, just parts 1-3 would make an excellent short AP.
That's true, although the major complaint I see about Kingmaker is that we don't "foreshadow the final adventure more." AKA: Folks really do want and prefer the "slow burn buildup to face a final boss" as an Adventure, even when they say they don't...
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That's true, although the major complaint I see about Kingmaker is that we don't "foreshadow the final adventure more." AKA: Folks really do want and prefer the "slow burn buildup to face a final boss" as an Adventure, even when they say they don't...
For me the biggest issue was the disconnect between the whole 'kingdom building' nature of the first five AP volumes and the 'quest to kill BBEG' nature of the sixth.
Of course, that was easily remedied by expanding the fey domain into a full 'hidden kingdom' with its own territory and armies. They had secretly been propping up Pitax as their puppet on the material plane (Irovetti's obsession with the arts was actually fey inspired), but now were moving openly against the player kingdom.
Still had the big final showdown, but kept alive the kingdom building theme of the rest of the campaign. I made similar adjustments to Jade Regent to keep the caravan mechanic active throughout.
That's true, although the major complaint I see about Kingmaker is that we don't "foreshadow the final adventure more." AKA: Folks really do want and prefer the "slow burn buildup to face a final boss" as an Adventure, even when they say they don't...
Right, and if you plan to run it all the way to the end, there are plenty of threads in the Kingmaker forums about how to improve the foreshadowing.
My point was, if someone is looking for a "shorter" AP, Kingmaker is the most flexible one I've read. If you stop in the middle of book 4 in Wrath of the Righteous, there's the feeling that there is still a looming demonic invasion you haven't stopped. But I can see running Kingmaker in as few as 2 books and anywhere up to 6, with room to add sidequest modules as you like.
For more specifics in spoiler tags:
You can easily run the first two books and have the "end" be formal recognition of your new nation from the parent country. (It's been a while since I finished this in my campaign, so my details are a bit fuzzy.) But once you've fully explored the first map page and have a small colony established, you can easily "retire" from active adventuring and have a satisfying little AP.
This would probably be more satisfying, since you get to do a bit more politics with your neighbors, defeat a big bad, and save a neighboring town.
Here you get even more local politics, rescue another neighboring town, and maybe even use some of the mass combat rules.
If that wasn't enough, a full war with Pitax could also be a good conclusion, establishing the kingdom once and for all as a local power in the region.
Since each book is fairly modular, it's really easy to run Kingmaker to any length you feel like it, and not feel there was "something left undone" as long as you minimize the foreshadowing of future events.
I must admit my group completed book 4, and I'm debating whether I should run books 5 or 6, or just make my own capstone adventure for the group. But I also have a megadungeon I added to a hex, so they've got a final boss waiting for them at the bottom of that.
I'd consider doing that myself if I wasn't wanting to make Ch6 relatively straightforward. We've been running KM for almost 4 years now, and we're ready to finish up and move on =)
Try Skulls and Shackles, then! Nothing extra-dimensional and you're not so much trying to save a region as take it over...
Skulls and Shackles always looked promising in terms of setting and roleplay possibilities, but the additional rules for ship fights looked confusing, but maybe I'll get around to playing it one day.
Kingmaker doesn't really have any "save the region" aspect. I mean, there might be a nearby petty tyrant who could control some of the untamed wilderness if the PCs don't do anything. But the stakes are mostly "local".
Well... if I remember correctly if the PCs fail to stop Nyrissa the Kingdom gets bottled to become a piece of decoration for Nyrissa. The Kingdom will likely span from Pitax to Varnholdt. How's that not saving the region?
That's true, although the major complaint I see about Kingmaker is that we don't "foreshadow the final adventure more." AKA: Folks really do want and prefer the "slow burn buildup to face a final boss" as an Adventure, even when they say they don't...For me the biggest issue was the disconnect between the whole 'kingdom building' nature of the first five AP volumes and the 'quest to kill BBEG' nature of the sixth.
I'll second that. Also, I found Nyrissas motivation wonky at best.
Kingmaker doesn't really have any "save the region" aspect. I mean, there might be a nearby petty tyrant who could control some of the untamed wilderness if the PCs don't do anything. But the stakes are mostly "local".Well... if I remember correctly if the PCs fail to stop Nyrissa the Kingdom gets bottled to become a piece of decoration for Nyrissa. The Kingdom will likely span from Pitax to Varnholdt. How's that not saving the region?
** spoiler omitted **Kingmaker doesn't really have any "save the region" aspect. I mean, there might be a nearby petty tyrant who could control some of the untamed wilderness if the PCs don't do anything. But the stakes are mostly "local".Well... if I remember correctly if the PCs fail to stop Nyrissa the Kingdom gets bottled to become a piece of decoration for Nyrissa. The Kingdom will likely span from Pitax to Varnholdt. How's that not saving the region?
|
Creative Director
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Ok, that might be me misremembering the details of part 6. As I've said I will likely replace it entirely. (Most likely with Court of the Shadow Fey from Kobold Press.) But if you skip part 6 to avoid dimension hopping, you also avoid the save the region part. Unless you play up the foreshadowing, the players will never know you removed the finale.Kingmaker doesn't really have any "save the region" aspect. I mean, there might be a nearby petty tyrant who could control some of the untamed wilderness if the PCs don't do anything. But the stakes are mostly "local".Well... if I remember correctly if the PCs fail to stop Nyrissa the Kingdom gets bottled to become a piece of decoration for Nyrissa. The Kingdom will likely span from Pitax to Varnholdt. How's that not saving the region?
Keep in mind that the primary point of Kingmaker's part 6 was NOT to dimension hop or have a BBEG. It was to give the PCs something to defend their kingdom from. The first five parts of Kingmaker are all about building the kingdom, so that at the end of part 5, you're more or less "done" and have finished building it up, having conquered all four regions of the Stolen Lands.
Book 6, then, gives you a chance to enjoy the kingdom and to defend it from an outside aggressor—if you remove this element, it can be frustrating for the players to, essentially, spend the entire AP working for something, and the big reward for achieving that something is "you don't get to play anymore."
This is the same reason that the big artifact hunt AP we did, Shattered Star, has the PCs finally recovering the whole artifact at the start of the last adventure. They should have at least one adventure's worth of opportunity to play with it.
Keep in mind that the primary point of Kingmaker's part 6 was NOT to dimension hop or have a BBEG. It was to give the PCs something to defend their kingdom from. The first five parts of Kingmaker are all about building the kingdom, so that at the end of part 5, you're more or less "done" and have finished building it up, having conquered all four regions of the Stolen Lands.
Book 6, then, gives you a chance to enjoy the kingdom and to defend it from an outside aggressor—if you remove this element, it can be frustrating for the players to, essentially, spend the entire AP working for something, and the big reward for achieving that something is "you don't get to play anymore."
True, although fighting off the armies in book 5 also feels like defending the kingdom from an outside aggressor. I know my group is barely interested in expanding into the swamp to the west, let alone all the way to Pitax.
One of the things I love about Kingmaker is how flexible it is though. You can make a completely new final chapter based on your player's actions and what they're interested in, and it won't feel like you are cheating them out of something the way replacing book 6 of Runelords with something where you don't fight a Runelord would feel. I'm not saying you have to cut book 6 or replace it, I'm just glad the APs framework is flexible enough that you can easily without making it feel like an awkward change in direction.
Another possible conclusion I've thought about was a confrontation with the Empire of Ghouls (also from Kobold Press) because of the way I tweaked book 3 to have some connections to that.
Every game, especially including AP's, have to have some level of DM-fiat. I've cut encounters short when we were running low on time and wanted to get to a good stopping point or when I felt that I was losing player interest. I've also added in content or substituted content from other AP's/ publishers/ etc when what was written didn't appeal to me or the group. The key is to find the bullet points that need to be conveyed in order to move the plot along and convey them in an entertaining manner. That doesn't mean sticking to the AP at all costs.
This. I personally like the length of the APs and wouldn't mind getting some longer ones (like ones that went up to level 20). I much prefer longer adventures to shorter ones, because you get more time to play with that particular character (as a player) or plotline/party (as a GM). Not everyone's preference, I know.
If your group prefers shorter campaigns, running modules is a good idea, as someone suggested earlier. You could also try looking for books of APs that could be run as stand-alone adventures with a little tweaking (Forest of Spirits from Jade Regent comes to mind, for one example). I don't view the APs as a way to shackle the party to specific actions, but as a "skeleton" for the campaign. There's no reason you can't add or cut encounters as you like, though it would take a bit more work.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Are APs too long?
Nope. :)
|
Woah, thanks for those notes about campaign shortening everyone. I'm about 2/3 through CotCT and will likely get it done by next October(just missing our third year anniversary). After that there's probably Way of the Wicked and/or Legacy of Fire(using LotFP) run by other people but give or take a few years and it's my time again to run and I've been juggling whether to run Kingmaker or Skull&Shackles. It's just that I really kinda hate post level 13 play so S&S has so far been winning. But cutting out the last two or one volumes from Kingmaker is an idea worth considering. I'd still keep the Nyrissa plot intact and introduce it early, it just wouldn't become quite so planarly and of course everyone'd be lower leveled. I like female BBEG's and powerful fey are one of my fave things after reading Butcher's Harry Dresden books for a while.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In the sense that the story arc needlessly drags down because the adventure has to be extended into high teen levels by hook or crook, even though the main plot can be finished far earlier?
Generally yes, with multiple adventures of padding and filler that either have next to nothing to do with the main plot or are devoted purely to obtaining a McGuffin/powerup needed to progress in the main plot (1 and 5 in RotR, 4 and 5 in CotCT, 1 and nearly all of 2 in SD, etc, etc).
In the sense that there are too many boring trash encounters to beat if the party is to collect enough EXP for their presumed advancement?
Yes.
|
|
I disagree that the APs are too long, they're exactly the length they oughta be. The bigger problem is that the module line releases too infrequently. It needs to go back to monthly, or at least bi-monthly (yep, it was originally 12 a year, now it's 4). If you or your group isn't into an AP (and my group has 0 interest in Hell's Vengeance since we'll have just finished Wicked Way) there's little in the way of content for you.
And don't mention PFS scenarios are a good alternative to the module line, cuz they aint.
|
|
That's true, although the major complaint I see about Kingmaker is that we don't "foreshadow the final adventure more." AKA: Folks really do want and prefer the "slow burn buildup to face a final boss" as an Adventure, even when they say they don't...
Part of it is also who the major final boss is isn't particularly interesting. A rival kingdom or even Brevoy itself would have been a much more impressive finale.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I suppose to each their own, I thought she was perfect, but then again I was attracted to the campaign as a whole because of Pett's insanity and the Alice-In-Wonderland themes of Chapter 6 rather than the kingdom building or Game-of-Thrones-ish politicking of the earlier portions of the plot.
I suppose to each their own, I thought she was perfect, but then again I was attracted to the campaign as a whole because of Pett's insanity and the Alice-In-Wonderland themes of Chapter 6 rather than the kingdom building or Game-of-Thrones-ish politicking of the earlier portions of the plot.
When an AP is sold as "Carve a kingdom from the wilderness and then defend it," the switch to "oh, and this ancient fey wants all the stuff you've got, good luck with that!" in the final act is a bit jarring.
Mind you, it's pretty easy to sneak in hints earlier (like, say, giving the Varnhold Vanishing a more First World spin), but as written, it's a pretty massive tonal curveball.
And, y'know, those happen sometimes, but...
Maybe. I came into the campaign well after it was completely released, and Chapter 6 was the first bit of it I saw. The earlier chapters didn't even ping on my radar until then. So the "billing" of the AP didn't really affect me.
I'm not a GoT fan or a Civ fan, which seems to be the feel that a lot of the people who liked the earlier chapters were going for. I know my players who liked Civ and SimCity and games like that were loving the kingdom building bit, while I as GM was mostly just sitting back and letting them run things, because Kingdom Building was necessary to keep the kingdom on-par with things that might threaten it but I personally had no interest in it and just wanted to get on with the fey plot.
My group's version of Kingmaker toned down the politicking and toned WAY UP the fey stuff as a result.
They have a campaign summary at the back of the first book, while I agree, more hints or tips to foreshadow were needed, it's not like the GM doesn't know she's there, so really, it's a fault of the GM to not do the foreshadowing themselves.
I guess I also feel that it both fits the theme, and is a wonderful adaptation of old school fey shenanigans.
Part of it is also who the major final boss is isn't particularly interesting. A rival kingdom or even Brevoy itself would have been a much more impressive finale.
That's true, although the major complaint I see about Kingmaker is that we don't "foreshadow the final adventure more." AKA: Folks really do want and prefer the "slow burn buildup to face a final boss" as an Adventure, even when they say they don't...
Which is why I suggested book 5 is a perfectly reasonable end to the campaign, defending your nation from a neighboring warlord. Kingmaker really is the easiest of all APs to customize, with plenty of flexibility to take things out and drop other things in.
When an AP is [i]sold[i/] as "Carve a kingdom from the wilderness and then defend it," the switch to "oh, and this ancient fey wants all the stuff you've got, good luck with that!" in the final act is a bit jarring.
Don't see a switch here.
The problem with Part 6 is not that Nyrissa exists and wants to kill you. It is that she and her plans are very much smalltime and uninteresting. She is a mid-level villain pretending to be a high-level villain, and even as a mid-level villain Rhoswen played the exact same role with better style and narrative credibility.
They have a campaign summary at the back of the first book, while I agree, more hints or tips to foreshadow were needed, it's not like the GM doesn't know she's there, so really, it's a fault of the GM to not do the foreshadowing themselves.
I'm supposed to pay for an adventure, not for a list of things that I must fix by myself.
They have a campaign summary at the back of the first book, while I agree, more hints or tips to foreshadow were needed, it's not like the GM doesn't know she's there, so really, it's a fault of the GM to not do the foreshadowing themselves.I'm supposed to pay for an adventure, not for a list of things that I must fix by myself.
You are. Just because the adventure they're telling is not the adventure you want to run doesn't mean you're not getting what you paid for. Along with the campaign overview, the Adventure Background for part 1 also mentions that "agents and allies of the nymph Nyrissa are laying their own plans", so if you as GM ignore that, you're obviously going to fail to foreshadow what is to come.
You are. Just because the adventure they're telling is not the adventure you want to run doesn't mean you're not getting what you paid for. Along with the campaign overview, the Adventure Background for part 1 also mentions that "agents and allies of the nymph Nyrissa are laying their own plans", so if you as GM ignore that, you're obviously going to fail to foreshadow what is to come.
Ignore what? In the adventures as written there is no way for all but most extremely paranoid PCs to even guess that Nyrissa is working behind the scenes. What you've quoted is a pitch. But from books that are sold for money I expect to get a finished product. So that, you know, I don't have to do as much work myself.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Along with the campaign overview, the Adventure Background for part 1 also mentions that "agents and allies of the nymph Nyrissa are laying their own plans", so if you as GM ignore that, you're obviously going to fail to foreshadow what is to come.
Maybe part 1 should add, "By the way, we didn't put any foreshadowing in the campaign that the PCs would notice, so if you play the adventure as written, the players will be entirely unaware of Nyrissa until she abruptly appears at the end; you might want to fix that."
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You guys are kind of being a+&~##!s about it.
What, you don't read ahead? Just run it as you read it do ya? "Hold on guys, I'm almost done reading this part"
Please.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What I like about the Pathfinder APs is how flexible they are. You can play one part or all six in a row. Each one is modular and can be run independent of the others. Smart GMs can even mix and match APs to make something really fun. Paizo knows what it's doing.
PS - There's a really fun thread about APs not being long enough, so that should make a nice companion read to this thread. lol
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Thanks to all the Kingmaker spoilers out in the open on this thread, I don't have to worry about any surprises when I play it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You guys are kind of being a~&#%+@s about it.
What, you don't read ahead? Just run it as you read it do ya? "Hold on guys, I'm almost done reading this part"
Please.
Some people start playing the AP before it's even finished being published.
Or, another way to look at it: If it's easy to look through the entire AP, spot the lack of foreshadowing (among a myriad of potential problems), and fix it, then Paizo ought to do it. If it's hard to do that, then "it's a fault of the GM to not do the foreshadowing themselves" is an unreasonable expectation to place on everyone.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You are. Just because the adventure they're telling is not the adventure you want to run doesn't mean you're not getting what you paid for. Along with the campaign overview, the Adventure Background for part 1 also mentions that "agents and allies of the nymph Nyrissa are laying their own plans", so if you as GM ignore that, you're obviously going to fail to foreshadow what is to come.Ignore what? In the adventures as written there is no way for all but most extremely paranoid PCs to even guess that Nyrissa is working behind the scenes. What you've quoted is a pitch. But from books that are sold for money I expect to get a finished product. So that, you know, I don't have to do as much work myself.
Kingmaker is such a terrible, unfinished product that it was last place in a recent poll of favorite APs. Oh wait, it's first place? How did that happen?
Kingmaker is the most open and flexible of the adventure paths. It's not for everyone, and it's not perfect, but it's pretty good. There is mention of the final foe in nearly every book, but its mostly in details to the GM. It's real easy to look back over the AP after its published and criticize, but it's not like all the adventures were turned in when part 1 went to print.
Kingmaker is a great AP, but the amount of freedom it gives the players requires a GM who is willing to improvise and go "off script" more than the more railroad style APs. I would suggest its only for experienced GMs willing to put extra work into the campaign regardless of minor issues with the final volume.
Edit:
Running an AP before reading thoroughly all 6 books is a bad idea. And yes, I'm speaking from experience. *looks at Serpent's Skull*
This. Always this. I know its exciting when you get that first AP volume, but the reality is, at this point, you've probably got a dozen APs you haven't played that are concluded to choose from when starting a campaign. It always helps to have a better idea of where things are going before you start the campaign.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'd still tell those groups it's a bad idea, then. If they choose to continue, that's up to them, and includes choosing to live with any problems that may cause.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think Hell's Rebels does a great job at telling you what's going down before it goes down, certainly shows how they've only gotten better at making it tighter at the seams, and makes me extremely hopeful for the line going forward.
Edit: an example, the gazetteer in book one tells you what book what places and people hold relevance throughout the whole campaign.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
You guys are kind of being a$~%*@%s about it.
What, you don't read ahead? Just run it as you read it do ya? "Hold on guys, I'm almost done reading this part"
Please.
Not to mention that the continuous string of items found throughout the adventures that are made of nymph's hair is a pretty good tipping point that perhaps there's a nymph behind the scenes doing things to drive the plot forward.
My players were already debating that very thing at the end of the first adventure, after recovering Nyrissa's boon found on the Stag Lord. Subsequent findings of nymph's hair boons in later books helped to reinforce that point. Granted, they were not expecting what hit them in Book 6, but I very much appreciated that fine twist into the campaign.