Can anyone who had bought occult realms post the entire text of shadow enchantment spells?
Both please.
If I did a linguistic mistake I apologize, I'm italian.
Please! I rwally want to use the lesser version in my game tonight.
Unfortunately it seems like the English name of the spell and Italian name of the spell don't line up because I can't find a spell at d20psrd.com that is called Shadow Enchantment.
If you can tell us the class spell list the spell is on we may be able to figure out which spell you're after.
It's not in the SRD yet, it just got published in Occult Realms.
SHADOW ENCHANTMENT
School illusion (shadow) [shadowUM]; Level bard 3, mesmerist 3, psychic 3, sorcerer/wizard 3
Casting Time 1 standard action Components V, S
Range see text
Effect see text
Duration see text
Saving Throw Will disbelief; see text; Spell Resistance yesYou use material from the Shadow Plane to cast a quasi-real, illusory version of a psychic, sorcerer, or wizard enchantment spell of 2nd level or lower. Spells that deal damage or have other effects work as normal unless the affected creature succeeds at a Will save. If the disbelieved enchantment spell has a damaging effect, that effect is one-fifth as strong (if applicable) or only 20% likely to occur. If recognized as a shadow enchantment, a damaging spell deals only one-fifth (20%) the normal amount of damage.
If the disbelieved attack has a special effect other than damage, that effect is one-fifth as strong (if applicable) or only 20% likely to occur. Regardless of the result of the save to disbelieve, an affected creature is also allowed any save (or spell resistance) that the spell being simulated allows, but the save DC is set according to shadow enchantment’s level (3rd) rather than the spell’s normal level. Objects, mindless creatures, and creatures immune to mind-affecting effects automatically succeed at their Will saves against the spell.
Greater Shadow Enchantment is level 6 for all the same classes, duplicates 5th level and below enchantments, and is 60% real.
Hmm. So a Greater Shadow Enchantment duplicating a Dominate Person will require 2 Will Saves; 1 to disbelieve this spell, and another to resist the Domination effect, right?
Assuming they succeeded their save on disbelief but failed vs the Dominate effect, would the Dominate Person last 20% as long as normal?
Hmm. So a Greater Shadow Enchantment duplicating a Dominate Person will require 2 Will Saves; 1 to disbelieve this spell, and another to resist the Domination effect, right?
Assuming they succeeded their save on disbelief but failed vs the Dominate effect, would the Dominate Person last 20% as long as normal?
I would go with only 20% likely to occur.
Honestly, the spell gives a lot of versatility but I think it's probably terrible.
They basically have to fail the save twice for it to be any good.
In that case, the spell would only have a 20% chance to work. So if they make their save vs the illusion but fail their save against the enchantment, you roll percentage and there is only a 20% chance that non-numerical effects apply.
Hmm. So a Greater Shadow Enchantment duplicating a Dominate Person will require 2 Will Saves; 1 to disbelieve this spell, and another to resist the Domination effect, right?
Assuming they succeeded their save on disbelief but failed vs the Dominate effect, would the Dominate Person last 20% as long as normal?
I would go with only 20% likely to occur.
Honestly, the spell gives a lot of versatility but I think it's probably terrible.
They basically have to fail the save twice for it to be any good.
So if its disbelieved, it's a 20% chance to have the Dominate effect. If that's successful, then it's another Will Save against the actual Domination. Right?
Sorry if I'm asking the dumb questions here. I just want to know for my illusion-happy PC once he gets a hold of this spell.
Yes, but on the plus side, feats such as spell focus: illusion would apply to both saves.
There was a great guide on shadow conjuration/evocation that had great insight (can't link it due to phone)
Hmm. So a Greater Shadow Enchantment duplicating a Dominate Person will require 2 Will Saves; 1 to disbelieve this spell, and another to resist the Domination effect, right?
Assuming they succeeded their save on disbelief but failed vs the Dominate effect, would the Dominate Person last 20% as long as normal?
I would go with only 20% likely to occur.
Honestly, the spell gives a lot of versatility but I think it's probably terrible.
They basically have to fail the save twice for it to be any good.
So if its disbelieved, it's a 20% chance to have the Dominate effect. If that's successful, then it's another Will Save against the actual Domination. Right?
Sorry if I'm asking the dumb questions here. I just want to know for my illusion-happy PC once he gets a hold of this spell.
That sounds correct. I don't know if it is clear whether or not you make the second save before or after the 20%. Doing the 20% first sounds more correct, but the second save is probably faster from a player's point of view (the DC should be the same, so a simple make a second save).
That is correct, you understand it perfectly.
As an engineer, I can happily tell you that the only stupid question is the one you don't ask!
Keep in mind, this spell can be used with more absolute success if emulating wiz/sorc Enchantment spells that are buffs for you and your allies. Granted, there are nowhere near as many Enchantment spells of this variety as there are of the offensive/attack spells.
Please note that you can use any "version of a psychic, sorcerer, or wizard enchantment spell of 2nd level or lower." That means anyone can use this to cast Suggestion or Heroism because they are on the Bard list at 2nd level.
And yes, the Spell Focus (Illusion) makes a lot of sense, and if you make it to level 15 Greater Shadow Enchantment is an AMAZING choice for Spell Perfection. With Greater Spell Focus and a free Persistent Spell metamagic you'd have DC 20 + Stat for LOTS of great 4th and 5th level Enchantments (including Mass Suggestion, Greater Heroism, and Cloak of Dreams from the Bard list), very hard to resist. They get to attempt two saves, but with free Persistent Spell they have to pass each of those twice.
I think GSE is the best spell in the game for a Psychic or Sorcerer who wants to focus on Enchantment. Just focus on Illusion instead and backdoor most of your spells through this method for huge savings on spells known.
Come of think of it, I don't know that Heroism would work. Can you deliberately benefit from an illusion that you know is false? We might be in the weird situation where you can't cast it on yourself (you automatically know it's fake), and it only works on your allies if they fail one save against it. You can't ask them to deliberately fail the save or they'd know it was fake and it wouldn't work? Weird interaction here, not sure about it at all.
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Please note that you can use any "version of a psychic, sorcerer, or wizard enchantment spell of 2nd level or lower." That means anyone can use this to cast Suggestion or Heroism because they are on the Bard list at 2nd level.
Hm... I don't read this quite like that. I believe it needs to be 2nd level or lower on the psychic or wizard/sorcerer list.
EDIT: I realize I don't really have any backup to my claim, but that seems to be RAW and RAI to me.
Sorry, I was thinking Psychic, which does grab Suggestion, Hold Person, and Mass Suggestion at the same levels as Bards and I guess I simplified that thought because people would be more familiar with the Bard spell list at this point.
It's still a benefit for Sorc/Wiz who get accesses they wouldn't otherwise if they had to stick to their own list.
Sorry, I was thinking Psychic, which does grab Suggestion, Hold Person, and Mass Suggestion at the same levels as Bards and I guess I simplified that thought because people would be more familiar with the Bard spell list at this point.
It's still a benefit for Sorc/Wiz who get accesses they wouldn't otherwise if they had to stick to their own list.
Oh. Derp. I should have checked to see that it was level 2 for Psychic.
Yes, gaining Psychic spells is pretty darn nifty.
There's a couple of worthwhile Wizard spells the Psychic can also grab, like a Symbol of Sleep/Laughter.
Just so I have this down, does the sequence of events play out something like this?
1. Sorcerer casts Greater Shadow Enchantment, replicating Dominate Person
2. Defender makes Will Save to disbelieve - succeeds
3. Roll percentile, and see if the 20% effectiveness works - succeeds
4. Defender rolls Will Save against Domination effect. (20% duration however)
(And somewhat Similar for Shadow Evocation, etc?)
:Edit: That should be 60% for Greater Shadow Enchantment.
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Just so I have this down, does the sequence of events play out something like this?
1. Sorcerer casts Greater Shadow Enchantment, replicating Dominate Person
2. Defender makes Will Save to disbelieve - succeeds
3. Roll percentile, and see if the 20% effectiveness works - succeeds
4. Defender rolls Will Save against Domination effect. (20% duration however)(And somewhat Similar for Shadow Evocation, etc?)
I believe you would have option 3 OR 20% duration on the Domination effect. I believe keeping the duration the same and using option 3 is the correct way, but I could see an argument for the other.
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Agreed on all except the duration note on 4. The issue is how to interpret:Just so I have this down, does the sequence of events play out something like this?
1. Sorcerer casts Greater Shadow Enchantment, replicating Dominate Person
2. Defender makes Will Save to disbelieve - succeeds
3. Roll percentile, and see if the 60% effectiveness works - succeeds
4. Defender rolls Will Save against Domination effect. (60% duration however)(And somewhat Similar for Shadow Evocation, etc?)
If the disbelieved attack has a special effect other than damage, that effect is one-fifth as strong (if applicable) or only 20%[60%] likely to occur.
The "or only 60% likely to occur" indicates to me that it's one or the other, not both. If it has a defined non-damage effect (e.g. -6 ability score penalty from an emulated Ego Whip V), then you multiply that by 60%, so here you'd apply a penalty of -3 or -4 (-3.6), depending on rounding rules. But if it doesn't have a special effect with a numeral value, like Dominate Person, I think instead you roll the 60%. If you make that roll it's fully real, so no reduction in duration.
Gotchya.
And, for good measure, let's say this is another order of events.
1. Sorcerer casts Greater Shadow Enchantment, replicating Dominate Person
2. Defender makes Will Save to disbelieve - Fails
3. Skip percentile dice
4. Defender rolls Will Save against Domination effect (100% effective)
And similar for other shadow spells.
Gotchya.
And, for good measure, let's say this is another order of events.
1. Sorcerer casts Greater Shadow Enchantment, replicating Dominate Person
2. Defender makes Will Save to disbelieve - Fails
3. Skip percentile dice
4. Defender rolls Will Save against Domination effect (100% effective)And similar for other shadow spells.
This seems correct to me. The one thing to note is that the save in 4 is based on the spell level of Greater Shadow Enchanment (probably 6 if not using heighten).
Yes. They get a bonus save before the normal effects, but even if they make it there's a 20/60% chance they take the normal effects (including save, if any) anyway.
The weird part is how to apply buffs like Heroism. I guess if you hit the 20/60% chance you're golden, but I suspect you have to try to fail a save against your own buff otherwise, and you probably auto pass (and therefore can't benefit) if you try to buff yourself and don't get luck on the 20/60% roll.
Yes. They get a bonus save before the normal effects, but even if they make it there's a 20/60% chance they take the normal effects (including save, if any) anyway.
The weird part is how to apply buffs like Heroism. I guess if you hit the 20/60% chance you're golden, but I suspect you have to try to fail a save against your own buff otherwise, and you probably auto pass (and therefore can't benefit) if you try to buff yourself and don't get luck on the 20/60% roll.
By RAW, I believe you can just auto-fail your save, even if you know it is fake. You can flavor it as you choose.
You can forgo your saving throw, if desired.
A creature can voluntarily forgo a saving throw and willingly accept a spell's result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.
Thematically speaking, you may have tricked yourself into having delusions of grandeur, and thus accepting your own "fake" Heroism spell.
Now, about that "fake" Contingency...
:Edit:
Actually, browsing through the rules, I came to learn that unconscious targets are also considered "willing" targets. This may change some things I do as a GM..Haha
You can always consider yourself willing to a spell.
You can voluntarily fail a save.
Unconsquious targets are always willing. But sleeping is not unconscious. Ruleswise sleeping is a state of lowered consciousness.
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The other fun one in voluntary save failing is that you don't get a save if you have definitive proof it's fake ("A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw."), you just disbelieve, so if you cast it on the fighter, he can just voluntarily fail, but if you cast it on yourself, you know it's fake so there is no save (and you get to decide whether casting it on someone who made the Spellcraft check counts as definitive proof or if they can voluntarily not roll Spellcraft). These rules be complex! :/
The other fun one in voluntary save failing is that you don't get a save if you have definitive proof it's fake ("A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw."), you just disbelieve, so if you cast it on the fighter, he can just voluntarily fail, but if you cast it on yourself, you know it's fake so there is no save. These rules be complex! :/
Well that answers that. Thanks Mark!
The other fun one in voluntary save failing is that you don't get a save if you have definitive proof it's fake ("A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw."), you just disbelieve, so if you cast it on the fighter, he can just voluntarily fail, but if you cast it on yourself, you know it's fake so there is no save (and you get to decide whether casting it on someone who made the Spellcraft check counts as definitive proof or if they can voluntarily not roll Spellcraft). These rules be complex! :/
I choose to read that as "a character with proof needs no saving throw (implicitly add) but can make one if desired."
;)
Obviously not RAW or even RAI, but I have a bit of a crush on shadow magic.
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The other fun one in voluntary save failing is that you don't get a save if you have definitive proof it's fake ("A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw."), you just disbelieve, so if you cast it on the fighter, he can just voluntarily fail, but if you cast it on yourself, you know it's fake so there is no save (and you get to decide whether casting it on someone who made the Spellcraft check counts as definitive proof or if they can voluntarily not roll Spellcraft). These rules be complex! :/I choose to read that as "a character with proof needs no saving throw (implicitly add) but can make one if desired."
;)
Obviously not RAW or even RAI, but I have a bit of a crush on shadow magic.
Yeah, these spells have been wonky/interesting to adjudicate for a while. I remember in 3.5 I built a character whose shadow spells were sometimes more than 100% real, so if you disbelieved them, they did more damage / had a greater than 100% chance of happening. He was probably the most powerful NPC in that particular campaign setting.
Yeah, these spells have been wonky/interesting to adjudicate for a while. I remember in 3.5 I built a character whose shadow spells were sometimes more than 100% real, so if you disbelieved them, they did more damage / had a greater than 100% chance of happening. He was probably the most powerful NPC in that particular campaign setting.The other fun one in voluntary save failing is that you don't get a save if you have definitive proof it's fake ("A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw."), you just disbelieve, so if you cast it on the fighter, he can just voluntarily fail, but if you cast it on yourself, you know it's fake so there is no save (and you get to decide whether casting it on someone who made the Spellcraft check counts as definitive proof or if they can voluntarily not roll Spellcraft). These rules be complex! :/I choose to read that as "a character with proof needs no saving throw (implicitly add) but can make one if desired."
;)
Obviously not RAW or even RAI, but I have a bit of a crush on shadow magic.
Especially potent with Shadowcraft Mage. Add Heighten Spell on Silent Image and things get crazy.
If I recall, you can actually get (at least) 100% real Shadows in Pathfinder currently. I forget the exact abilities...
Fun stuff, either way. Would be interesting to mix that with the new Umbral Mesmerist.
Yeah, these spells have been wonky/interesting to adjudicate for a while. I remember in 3.5 I built a character whose shadow spells were sometimes more than 100% real, so if you disbelieved them, they did more damage / had a greater than 100% chance of happening. He was probably the most powerful NPC in that particular campaign setting.The other fun one in voluntary save failing is that you don't get a save if you have definitive proof it's fake ("A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw."), you just disbelieve, so if you cast it on the fighter, he can just voluntarily fail, but if you cast it on yourself, you know it's fake so there is no save (and you get to decide whether casting it on someone who made the Spellcraft check counts as definitive proof or if they can voluntarily not roll Spellcraft). These rules be complex! :/I choose to read that as "a character with proof needs no saving throw (implicitly add) but can make one if desired."
;)
Obviously not RAW or even RAI, but I have a bit of a crush on shadow magic.
Especially potent with Shadowcraft Mage. Add Heighten Spell on Silent Image and things get crazy.
If I recall, you can actually get (at least) 100% real Shadows in Pathfinder currently. I forget the exact abilities...
Fun stuff, either way. Would be interesting to mix that with the new Umbral Mesmerist.
Yep, was a shadowcraft mage with Heighten Spell and Signature Spell silent image and something (can't remember what) that made silent image a 0-level spell and another thing (can't remember what) that heightens your spell 1 more level than you pay for when you heighten at least 1. So just by the baseline before adding other +real abilities, he could spontaneously convert prepared slots of any spell level to silent image, which duplicated a spell of his choice of the same level as the slot he converted and was a %real equal to (level of the slot + 1)x10%. It basically obsoleted all evocation and conjuration spells of the types that be made a shadow evocation or conjuration, which was many.
Yep, was a shadowcraft mage with Heighten Spell and Signature Spell silent image and something (can't remember what) that made silent image a 0-level spell and another thing (can't remember what) that heightens your spell 1 more level than you pay for when you heighten at least 1. So just by the baseline before adding other +real abilities, he could spontaneously convert prepared slots of any spell level to silent image, which duplicated a spell of his choice of the same level as the slot he converted and was a %real...Yeah, these spells have been wonky/interesting to adjudicate for a while. I remember in 3.5 I built a character whose shadow spells were sometimes more than 100% real, so if you disbelieved them, they did more damage / had a greater than 100% chance of happening. He was probably the most powerful NPC in that particular campaign setting.The other fun one in voluntary save failing is that you don't get a save if you have definitive proof it's fake ("A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw."), you just disbelieve, so if you cast it on the fighter, he can just voluntarily fail, but if you cast it on yourself, you know it's fake so there is no save (and you get to decide whether casting it on someone who made the Spellcraft check counts as definitive proof or if they can voluntarily not roll Spellcraft). These rules be complex! :/I choose to read that as "a character with proof needs no saving throw (implicitly add) but can make one if desired."
;)
Obviously not RAW or even RAI, but I have a bit of a crush on shadow magic.
Especially potent with Shadowcraft Mage. Add Heighten Spell on Silent Image and things get crazy.
If I recall, you can actually get (at least) 100% real Shadows in Pathfinder currently. I forget the exact abilities...
Fun stuff, either way. Would be interesting to mix that with the new Umbral Mesmerist.
Gnome Illusionist ACF made Silent Image a 0-level spell. Toss in Earth Spell (the metamagic that enhances Heighten you mentioned), Arcane Thesis if desired, and tons of other lovely metamagics. Mostly the Earth Spell and Gnome ACF.
Overpowered and broken, but there is something beautiful when everything comes together.Oh, and for Pathfinder you can get 120% Shades spells with some... GM adjudication. It requires applying Shadowcaster's 20% realness buff first and then adding a Magical Lineage (taking that trait for the long-term!) Solid Shadow (which does not actually specify Shades, but does mention that it functions with spells similar to Shadow Conjuration at GM's discretion).
And this matches exactly my build. Gnomes illusionists can rule the world!
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Hmm. So a Greater Shadow Enchantment duplicating a Dominate Person will require 2 Will Saves; 1 to disbelieve this spell, and another to resist the Domination effect, right?
Assuming they succeeded their save on disbelief but failed vs the Dominate effect, would the Dominate Person last 20% as long as normal?
I would go with only 20% likely to occur.
Honestly, the spell gives a lot of versatility but I think it's probably terrible.
They basically have to fail the save twice for it to be any good.
The shadow enchantment version of dominate is going to be a higher DC level and 99% likely going to be specced to Hell and back as a specialist in shadow spells (or illusion spells). Also as far as the 60% real, there are several different options to get that closer to 80%.
I would also point out that the RAW does not guarantee the save to disbelieve for interacting, it only says its possible, hence if they ask for it.
One question I have in implementing these spells is how it interacts with with things that give improved DCs on mind-affecting spells, like the psychic's Overpowering Mind phrenic amplification. It requires that the linked spell has the mind-affecting tag, but Shadow Enchantment only has the "shadow" descriptor.
So does Overpowering Mind (a) not work at all, (b) work only on the second save, assuming your'e implementing a mind-affecting spell, or (c) work on both saves, because c'mon, obviously a disbelief check is mind-affecting, even if they didn't think to give it the descriptor.
If (c) were true than illusions wouldn't work on vermin. At least part of the time, maybe... I don't know, shadow spells are weird.
Not sure if I'd go with (b) or (c) though in your example. Do shadow spells gain the descriptors of the spells they imitate?
I can't find much about overarching rules applied to shadow spells, but I think they have to gain the descriptors, otherwise it would be an easy way around immunities. So that solves the problem here.
You can always consider yourself willing to a spell.
You can voluntarily fail a save.Unconsquious targets are always willing. But sleeping is not unconscious. Ruleswise sleeping is a state of lowered consciousness.
Sleeping is equivalent to unconscious in that they both make you helpless, which means you are a willing(aka not fully conscious + helpless) target. The difference between sleeping and unconscious is that you can use a standard to wake a sleeping creature while you have to make heal checks to return someone from unconsciousness.
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
Best I could find was shadow enchantment's statement of immunity against object, mindless creatures, and those immune to mind-affecting. I'm sure it's intended to allow the bonuses on saves.
I'm rather surprised the shadow subschool doesn't mention gaining descriptors. Though aside from mind-affecting I don't know which ones would come up often, off hand.
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You can always consider yourself willing to a spell.
You can voluntarily fail a save.Unconsquious targets are always willing. But sleeping is not unconscious. Ruleswise sleeping is a state of lowered consciousness.
Sleeping is equivalent to unconscious in that they both make you helpless, which means you are a willing(aka not fully conscious + helpless) target. The difference between sleeping and unconscious is that you can use a standard to wake a sleeping creature while you have to make heal checks to return someone from unconsciousness.
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
No, sleeping is not willing.
Sleeping = Helpless
Unconscious = Helpless
Helpless has several bad effects, none of which involve automatically failing saves. If sleeping made you autofail all spells there would be no save allowed for Nightmare, Dream Scan, Dream Voyage, or other spells that effect sleeping targets yet list a save. The psychic dream discipline also has a number of discipline abilities that affect only sleeping targets and that all grant saves.
But Unconscious (and only Unconscious) is counted as willing for all spells, so automatically is subject to any spell like Teleport or Sequester that requires willing targets. It's less obvious that they auto fail a spell that always gives a saving throw. I'm pretty sure they don't, since you don't automatically fail a nonmagical poison Fortitude save when you're unconscious, I don't know why you'd automatically fail a Poison spell save. I suppose you'll have a hard time with Reflex saves at -5, though.
Unconscious in game terms means below 0 HP or put down by nonlethal damage, not asleep.
Unconscious creatures are knocked out and helpless. Unconsciousness can result from having negative hit points (but not more than the creature's Constitution score), or from nonlethal damage in excess of current hit points.
Many GMs may choose to disregard this because they want to facilitate teleportation kidnappings on sleeping targets. But RAW you need to beat them senseless first.
Finally, I'll note that a rule that autofailing all saves when asleep would make it madness to ever sleep around a magician that can cast a mind affecting spell. The right way to play this is you get a save and making it wakes you up so the king can ask why his court wizard is standing over his bed at 3 a.m.
What are you creating an illusion of if you're casting most enchantment spells? This spell makes very little sense to me.
My guess is you're creating a mental illusion (phantasm) of whatever an enchantment normally does. Phantasmal Killer or Mindscape probably come closest to what this is, not the old Shadow Evocation/Conjuration spells.
This seems awesome for party buffs - has anyone gathered an "A-list" of spells in that range?