The Cleric class deck has a spell, Righteousness, which reads:
Display this card to add 1d6 to your combat checks. When you are dealt damage, recharge any cards you would discard. At the end of your turn, if you do not have the Divine skill, banish this card; otherwise, attempt a Divine 13 check. If you succeed, recharge this card; if you fail, discard it.
Tonight my group tried to convince me this card could be played when a caster (Zarlova) encountered a monster (a two-check villain), and then the caster could play another spell on each check against the monster.
In their view, this spell is similar to Blizzard, Corrosive Storm, Incendiary Cloud, and Toxic Cloud. The problem with this argument, which I did not realize at the time, is that each of these other spells says "Display this card when a character encounters a monster" or words to that effect.
I think if a character encounters a monster and plays Righteousness, this is the one spell the character can use for the check (meaning they would have to use a weapon or Melee/Strength for the combat check). I'm thinking the spell is intended for the martials in the Cleric deck.
In contrast, if the character played this spell before encountering a card, then encountered a monster, the character could play a spell on each check against the monster and utilize the 1d6 from Righteousness.
Is this correct?
Yes. The limit is one card per type per character for each step of the encounter. Toxic Cloud (and others) are played during the "When you encounter" step (which became a much clearer thing in Skull and Shackles). Righteousness is played when you are attempting a combat check. That is the "attempt the check" step. So you could not play another spell during that same step.
I'd play that card exactly like I would Glibness, Speed, or Strength. You can play it between steps without issue, but once you're in an exploration, the first time you can play it is during the first check ("Attempt the Check" step of the encounter, "Play cards and use powers that affect your check" step of the check). If you think you're going to be fighting a lot that turn, drop it down before your first explore so you can still play spells during the encounters themselves.
So, exactly like you and Hawkmoon were saying :)
I wish so SO badly that Righteousness was something like "Display this card at the start of your turn" or "Display this card when you encounter a monster" since it's sort of the Divine version of Mirror Image (in that it's a spell that reduces combat damage). The way the card says "Display this card to add 1d6 to your combat check" implies you cannot display it whenever you want.
:/ Poor Zarlova. My baby.
"Display this card to add 1d6 to your combat checks" is pretty lax wording in my opinion. It would be much clearer (and in keeping with other cards like Glibness) if it had been "Display this card [at a certain time]. While displayed, add 1d6 to your combat checks. ..."
I entirely agree with skizzerz on how to actually use the card.
I'm being too literal with the card reading, then! I like this card more now, thanks. :)
Placing this question here because the text of the card is in the OP
Situation: Kyra fails a combat check by five. She now has to discard 5 cards for damage. Righteousness is in the player's hand.
Question: can the player play righteousness to recharge those cards, in the same window a player would play an armor to reduce the amount of damage taken?
Hum... the card doesn't say "When you are dealt damage, display to recharge...".
The "When you are dealt..." only triggers if the card is already displayed.So I think that at the time the dice are rolled, you do not have the opportunity to play the spell before taking the damage.
I. e. if you decided not to play the spell before rolling the dice, you must live with it !
Choices Matter. Your choices have consequences.
I'd say no. The situation you can play the card is covered in just the first sentence "Display this card to add 1d6 to your combat checks." The benefit of recharging cards you take as damage is something that happens once you've played the card to add 1d6 to your combat checks.
Just my opinion though.
I agree with Frencois and Hawkmoon here -- you're inside of a check/encounter when you take damage, so any cards you play must directly relate to the current step of the check/encounter. Righteousness does not directly relate to taking damage, that is a side effect of its main purpose (adding 1d6 to your combat checks).
Now, had it been written as "Display this card. While displayed, add 1d6 to your combat checks and when you are dealt damage, recharge any cards you would discard." then I'd say you could play it when you take damage, provided you haven't already played a spell during that check or step of the encounter.
The timing window is "your combat checks". If you aren't making a combat check, you can't play it. More specifically, the point in the combat where you can add dice to a check. That is the "Play cards and user powers that affect the check" part of a check. The reason is that the thing you get to do for displaying it is add dice to a check. Do X to get Y. If Y doesn't apply, you can't do X. So you can't display it if you aren't able to add 1d6 to your combat check at that time.
It has extra benefits once it is displayed (the recharging cards thing) but the initial playing it is all about Displaying it to add 1d6 to your combat checks.
If you look at the taking damage section you have quoted, you'll note that you are allowed to "play cards" to reduce or otherwise affect the damage you are being dealt.
Playing a card means using a power on that card by revealing, displaying, discarding, recharging, burying, or banishing that card or by performing another action specified by that card.
The sentence about recharging your cards doesn't include an action to activate that power. If it was already displayed, then you'd be activating a power on it to recharge cards, which would then count as playing it.
Make sense?
The reason why I ask is because the card doesn't specify a timing window...
Be careful with that kind of assumption. For example say you have a card that says "discard to add 1d4 to a Diplomacy check". You might say, since it doesn't say "before rolling dice" then I can add the d4 after failing the check... See where it goes?
My point is there is ALWAYS a implicit timing window. Righteousness says "display to add to your combat check", so implicitely it means "during an encounter, this card can only be displayed when you are preparing a combat check; out of an encounter, it can be played anytime you can play a spell"
If you look at the Attempting A Check section, you only get to play cards that apply to the check during the "Play Cards and Use Powers That Affect Your Check (Optional)" phase.
No; you get to play cards during any step of the check provided it relates to that step. Play cards and use powers that affect your check is the catchall step for cards that don't fit anywhere else. For example, you play armors to reduce your damage in the Take Damage, If Necessary step.
I still think it is odd that a caster cannot play this spell, Glibness and the like and the one from S&S that gave a character 1d6 for her checks and an attack spell but a weapon.
I think the weirdest situations ensue if you have to make a check or cannot play spells that have the attack trait. Those checks are basically in the same step as the check you want to play the spell for but apparently then you have the time to cramp incantations into the same step, since you are allowed to play a spell on each of those checks IIRC.
And I still don't see the mechanical reason when Adowyn can boost her Corrosive Dagger +1 with Agility but not Frigid Blast withWisdomSagacity.
Could you clarify this post? I'm not sure what several of your sentences mean. The last one I understood.
I think what he's getting at is that there's two sorts of things on a check, the one single power you use "for" the check (i.e. with the phrase "for your combat check"), and other things which support the check. The restriction of at most one of each type of card per check makes sense to prevent stacking up multiple support cards of the same type. But it feels odd that Righteousness etc., as a support, interferes with you being able to use an attack spell "for" the check itself. Many weapons with abilities to add to a check explicitly say you can use another weapon on the check for possibly this reason (among other reasons) for example.
It's made all the more odd by the fact that in many cases if you set these spells up in advance you can in fact use both.
Personally I agree that it feels odd but I don't see it as such a big problem to be worth fixing. With the right sort of hand waving the existing behaviour kind of makes sense anyway even from a flavour point of view. You can cast a support spell and fight with a weapon but you can't cast two spells at once even if they work separately in terms of what they do.
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The restriction of at most one of each type of card per check makes sense to prevent stacking up multiple support cards of the same type. But it feels odd that Righteousness etc., as a support, interferes with you being able to use an attack spell "for" the check itself.
This restriction in inspired by the RPG, which limits the actions you can take in a round of combat. Typical spells take a standard action to cast, and you typically get only one standard action per round.
The restriction of at most one of each type of card per check makes sense to prevent stacking up multiple support cards of the same type. But it feels odd that Righteousness etc., as a support, interferes with you being able to use an attack spell "for" the check itself.This restriction in inspired by the RPG, which limits the actions you can take in a round of combat. Typical spells take a standard action to cast, and you typically get only one standard action per round.
Setting aside for a moment the fact, that we're often told stuff from the RPG gets adapted to conform to PACG conventions, this still doesn't explain why I would be able to attack with a sword (Standard action) and then cast a Strength spell on myself (also Standard action).
I'm not saying it should be one way or the other, but I agree with Michael that it creates inconsistency between Martials and Spellcasters. Granted, this may even be desirable (if, for example, the versatility of Spellcasters is considered great enough that they have an additional limitation to balance it off), but if it's just an overlooked disbalance, maybe it's worth addressing.
this still doesn't explain why I would be able to attack with a sword (Standard action) and then cast a Strength spell on myself (also Standard action).
Strength is a lower level spell and can be quickened much easier!
I'm not saying it should be one way or the other, but I agree with Michael that it creates inconsistency between Martials and Spellcasters. Granted, this may even be desirable (if, for example, the versatility of Spellcasters is considered great enough that they have an additional limitation to balance it off), but if it's just an overlooked disbalance, maybe it's worth addressing.
I'm not sure why this is an issue. Caster can get Mirror Image, or Cloud spells, both are spells you can play in addition to your combat spell. I think this was a cool buff MENT for casters that are still fighting with a weapon.
This restriction in inspired by the RPG, which limits the actions you can take in a round of combat. Typical spells take a standard action to cast, and you typically get only one standard action per round.
Hum with all due respect (and we owe you a lot ot it), IMHO I think the this "inspiration" isn't really fully apropriate :
In the RPG a fight usually lasts multiple roundsIn the ACG, a fight usually boils down to one check
We don't need a "why" on the limitation on type of cards. It's the rule that's all.
In the RPG also there are rules that "don't make real sense". But it's fun to play so who cares...
The idea is that you should cast Brilliance, Eloquence, Sagacity, etc. before your encounter, if you feel you are going to need them. You can also use them on other people's checks, but just not your own, unless you do the above.
Shardra has examination powers whenever she succeeds at a Knowledge check.
Adowyn with Leryn allows you to examine the top card of your location deck.
There are many barriers that will go back on top of the deck. There are a number of times that you will know what you are about to flip over.
As well, if you are counting cards, you might very well know that you have 4 monsters left, so casting Sagacity on yourself if you are a Divine (Wisdom) caster will make a lot of sense.
Although I generally will play these spells on other players, i.e. in a support role, I have done the above - played a spell on myself because I knew what was about to come up - quite a few times.
How do you "feel" you might need them?
Well,
- either you have powers (characters, boons...) that help you examine,- either you play by chance+memory (after all you know how many monsters are in a location, if you already encountered most of the other cards, you know your chances are high)
But anyway, if you could play those spell after encountering, then you pretty much ruined all the interest of spyglasses, oracles, and a bunch of other nice features of that game IMHO.
For example if I'm moving to a location with a lot of monsters (either because there was a lot of them when building the location or because some of my friends already looted all the boons :-)), and I know I will rexeplore many times (lots of blessings and allies in my hand), then I shoot those spells before my first encounter (especially as some of them will stay during my all turn giving me benefits for all the fights).
And for the RPG addicts like me, it duplicates a nice feature of the RPG: casting time.
Some spells are meant tobe played during a fight (casting time = 1 round or less typically).
Some others (usually more powerful or of longer duration) are meant to be played before you enter the dungeon, not knowing what you will find (and sometimes you just lost them because what you expected/feared didn't happen; casting time = 1 minute or more).
It's way way more fun when not everything works the same (else replayability is crap).
The most ridiculous thing in WOTR the Knowledge checks against monsters allow Enora, Shardra and Imrijka to play Brilliance and Sagacity after they started the encounter but before the combat check.
Although you can use all of these spells perfectly on all characters during non-combat checks on other characters during their combat checks or on yourself while playing a weapon for your combat check, Brilliance, Eloquence and Sagacity are slightly less useful.
IDK why people focus on the wrong part of Michael's post, but I feel this quote sums up pretty well what feels *off* about the current status quo.
Yes, you have plenty of ways to scout ahead for your encounter to pre-cast Sagacity on yourself, but you have no restrictions whatsoever when casting it on another player's encounter.
Also, we have the somewhat absurd situation that you *hope* for a BYA check on monster to boost your combat check (Knowledge/Brilliance) when fighting with a spell, but you have no problem spell-boosting when fighting with a weapon, or, again, when trying to boost another character's check.
I already commented on why arguments about RPG 'casting times' don't hold water IMHO.
Strength is a lower level spell and can be quickened much easier!Well obviously you're referring to metamagic feats which would manifest in powers that allowed you to play these spells while doing other things. But not in non-casters and partial-casters being able to cast them at the same time as they engage in martial combat.
This was said light hearted, as I would hope the ! made it feel. It was not a real attempt at an explanation or defending the logic.
I will give some a different perspective, but at this point we can agree to disagree.
I'm not sure why this is an issue. Caster can get Mirror Image, or Cloud spells, both are spells you can play in addition to your combat spell. I think this was a cool buff MENT for casters that are still fighting with a weapon.Mirror image should be compared to armor, which casters either do not have or less than martial characters. Cloud spells are not restrictive to full casters or are you talking about the recharge checks?
Armor should be compared to Arcane Shield, in the sense of, recharge to prevent 1-3 damage. No Armor recharges to prevent all damage like Mirror Image can do.
While Cloud spells are not restricted to Casters. Non-caster pay a high price with the banishment of the card after casting. Weapons are also not restricted. Radillo (Wizard) and Siwar (Bard) are both casters that I have made use of weapons to great effect.
For flavor, I feel like Righteousness was an attempt to give a spell like Pathfinders "Divine Power" or "Righteous Might". Both are spells casters would not be likely to utilize in combat.
