Hot Button Topics: Is this the place for them?

[Chemlak]

Nohwear wrote:

I just want to chime in with one caution. If you do have a list of things that can get a thread autolocked, be wary of people weaponizing that. I was on another forum that completely had completely forbidden politics. They had trouble with people bringing up stuff just to get a thread locked.

This is an extremely fair and pertinent point. I would say that current policy of deleting posts within a thread rather than locking an entire thread would be the best way to battle this, unless the starting post is lockbait.

[Tin Foil Yamakah]

While I personally find it baffling why anyone would want to talk about RL politics/religion on a fantasy gaming site. I see that there are some folks who do and that's fine. All I want is for these threads to have their own space(that's not in the OTD).

The OTD and My campaigns is pretty much where I live as I find the other forums not to my liking.

[Chemlak]

I may be wrong, but there seems to be something of a general consensus that if these topics had their own subforum, it would minimise the exposure of the average user, while still allowing the threads to remain open for conversation, subject to the normal message board rules about conduct.

[Lord Twitchiopolis]

Thing is, you're going to have bleed over.
There's no such thing as a purely homogeneous thread; real world politics will be brought into a thread on Golarion politics because of the parallels, rules questions will be brought up in a thread on advice, PFS discussion will be brought up in a general rules discussion.

We could make a forum for the political and religious threads, but individual posts will always find their way from thread to thread.
Asking for people to find the specific thread in which their comment applies would be ridiculous, and wouldn't actually benefit conversation .

*edit* I'm not saying a separate forum is a bad idea. Just that you can expect some degree of bleed over no matter what, so ideas like bans and temp bans are not so solid.

[Orthos]

I don't think anyone's saying there won't be any bleedover. There's already some bleedout from the Rules forums despite there being their own subsection.

But it's hemorrhaging significantly less onto other threads than it would be if the Rules forum didn't exist and the topics currently discussed there had to go in... say... Product Discussion or Setting Discussion instead.

The same goes for OTD and politics. Right now there's a tremendous amount of toxicity leaking all over OTD, to the point that a large amount of people never visit it and several who did in the past have ceased to do so as Paizo as a community becomes larger and, as a result, more politically diverse and composed of strongly conflicting opinions, mindsets, and stances.

Creating a separate subforum specifically for those hot-button discussions will likewise greatly reduce their effect on other discussions and other parts of the community. To complete absence of their effect? No, as stated by many in this thread that's likely impossible, especially with a company like Paizo who puts a lot of their own political and sociological opinions and stances into their product. But it will heavily reduce the effect of the more hostile feelings and discussions that spawn from such conversations on other, unrelated threads by giving them a limited proximity.

[NenkotaMoon]

I'm fine with keeping them up.

[GM_Beernorg]

As someone who has been on both sides of the heated political/religious debate I can safely say that there are issues. Hell, I have inadvertently caused one or two. Though, it is worth mentioning, as someone who loves to debate, more often than not the "touchy" threads do have some pretty good, and occasionally amazing, discourse. Alas, at some point we always go too far, take things too personally (hard not to do, all part of being human) and the useful discourse becomes a trolling flame war of doom.

Interestingly, the boards are, by default, an extension the gaming population at large, and as a very diverse population, we are going to butt heads and disagree, sometimes with extreme prejudice. No matter what the topic, being it rules, religion, or even movies, there will be disagreement, and inevitably somewhere along the line, disagreement will change to anger, another common human reaction to being challenged, and the more "hot button" or important the issue, the lower the threshold for disagreement or counter point becomes.

I learned this the hard way by posting a thread about the term CIS. I had absolutely no intent to troll anyone, nor attack any group, I was simply trying to express my own personal concerns and feelings. Well, as one can imagine, that did not go quite as planned, just ask our Lady of the Interwebz, Chris.

So, final thoughts, politics and religion do indeed inform our Pathfinder games, consciously or not, and there is a time and place to discuss such things. But the rub goes back to how we do so, and our ability to discuss and debate vs. our instinct to become angry and attack when we feel ideologically or socially threatened by said topics. It would seem the decision comes down to does the Paizo staff feel serious conversations are worth the trouble they cause, sort of like the +/- ratio of a hockey player, if the + out weights the - then they are worth keeping, if not, then they get traded (or for our purposes here, closed and locked unto the breaking of the world, or at least the internet.)

Regardless of the outcome here, I for one want to thank Paizo for even providing it's fans a place to gather and talk.

[Tin Foil Yamakah]

Another fine example of a thread that needs to have it's own dark corner that can be hidden

[Rosita the Riveter]

Honestly, if I were Paizo, I'd ban political discussion in off topic. As others have said, it takes too much moderation time, and Paizo moderators are employees who have other things to be doing. Now, I'd think political discussion related to gaming should still be allowed. General political discussion? This is a private corporate website, not a public playground. I think Paizo should take steps to be more welcoming and less hostile (and I'm glad to see rules discussions are being looked into).

The easiest way to word this would "No politics in Off Topic Discussion, yes politics elsewhere, but threads that clearly belong in OTD will be locked".

[CampinCarl9127]

Wow, that OP was literally the worst thing I have ever seen on the boards. If anything I think locking it was undermoderating it, I probably would have deleted the whole thing.

Hmm, on one hand I'm all for freedom of speech. On the other hand, there are plenty of other platforms for this topic and I hate to see valuable manpower going to moderating dumb arguments.

[GM_Beernorg]

Yep, that is a great example of the "way too far" is was referring to in this thread. Funny how I am the last poster in that horrid vitriol spew of a thread. I am with CampinCarl, as that is the most direct attack I have seen in 4 years on these boards. That type of post is also the exact sort of thing that we do not need, and nor does Liz (the most pleasant ninja ever).

[wraithstrike]

I think things are fine. I don't come here for hot topics so I don't generally go to those sections. It is not difficult to "not click on a post". I have been "not clicking" for years.

[JoelF847]

I don't talk about either politics or religion on Paizo at all, but think it would be a mistake to ban those topics from the boards. The main reason why is that if you do, we suddenly wouldn't be able to talk about politics and religion as they impact Paizo and Pathfinder.

I'm not talking about being able to talk about the politics and religion of Golarion, but about how real world politics impact business and creative decisions of Paizo. Case in point, Paizo has been very inclusive of characters who have different sexual orientations, etc. which leads to discussions about this.

If Paizo banned conversation about politics and religion, it would be exceedingly difficult to ask questions, praise, or complain about things like this.

[Brother Fen]

I just ignore all of that hot button stuff anyway, but I don't see why people should be prevented from discussing such topics in a civilized manner. If we ban certain topics, where does it stop? If that happens, then I say ban all "Sell me on", "This is BROKEN", "This is OP" threads as well because they bug me more than anything.

No. Just ignore what you don't want to discuss and let the rest carry on as they see fit - hopefully without resorting to name calling.

[Aberzombie]

Brother Fen wrote:

I just ignore all of that hot button stuff anyway.....

The moderators at Paizo would probably like to ignore it as well, since they have other jobs to do.

Brother Fen wrote:

.....discussing such topics in a civilized manner.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....

Brother Fen wrote:

.......hopefully without resorting to name calling.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA......

[Brother Fen]

Feel better now?

Perhaps what you're implying is that we need "ignore" functions for posters that have absolutely nothing to contribute aside from variation in bold and normal type?

[Aberzombie]

No, I'm implying that your estimation of the level of Internet discourse on certain topics is enough to make me laugh.

Seriously, if I had been drinking soda, my monitor would have been wearing it.

[PathlessBeth]

I get the sense that some people will argue for banning any topic they don't personally want to take part in. For example:

Chemlak wrote:

I don't dispute what you're saying, Jiggy (your analysis is spot-on), but the difference is a big one: absolutely nobody can argue that rules questions don't have a place on these forums.

Actually, some people have argued exactly that. There are some people who say "you shouldn't ask strangers on the internet questions about the rules. Just decide yourself what it is or ask your GM."

Most people who think/express that sentiment don't come to the rules forum. However, there is a staple of posters who will post "don't ask rules questions on the internet" in response to threads on the rules questions forum.

It isn't only the rules questions forum, though. Occasionally the Pathfinder RPG Advice forum will see a thread along the lines of
OP: I need help with X and Y. Would Z be a good idea?
Responder: Step away from the computer. Don't take advice from people on the internet, it never ends well.
OP (or another poster): what's the advice forum for, then?

I think those who oppose the idea of taking advice from or giving advice to people on the internet would be best off hiding the advice forum. Nevertheless, there are still people who insist that others who do want to use the advice forum shouldn't.

Changing gears slightly, there are some people who believe that the entire website is dedicated solely to discussion of PFS. I've been in conversations on the advice and PFRPG General Discussion forums that are interrupted by someone saying "you shouldn't talk about [topic of discussion] here, because that isn't allowed in PFS."

Ultimately, though, I do think it goes back to what you said upthread:

Chemlak the Super Awesome wrote:

I may be wrong, but there seems to be something of a general consensus that if these topics had their own subforum, it would minimise the exposure of the average user, while still allowing the threads to remain open for conversation, subject to the normal message board rules about conduct.

People who hate the idea of giving or taking advice on the internet can hide the advice forum. People who don't like asking or answering questions about the game rules can hide the rules forum. People who aren't interested in PFS can hide the PFS forum. People who can only talk about PFS can hide everything except the PFS forum. People who hate the concept of homebrew can hide the homebrew forum.

But people who don't want to see political threads can't hide the politics forum if there is no politics forum.

On the other hand, discussions about politics are a difficult line to walk. There is some discussion of politics which is actually related to Paizo and Pathfinder. However, there are also quite a few politics threads on the OTD board with no relation to Paizo whatsoever. If it really is too much work for the moderators, it might be worth banning politics discussions that aren't related at all to Paizo or their products. How you define what is sufficiently related to Paizo is another question I don't have an answer for, though.

As a final note, I'll say that my favorite part of having political discussions on this website is this incredible post by Durngrun Stonebreaker, and KC's subsequent response. That couldn't happen on a site dedicated solely to politics:)

[UnArcaneElection]

The nummber of threads that I have seen locked (often for talk about real-world religion or to a lesser extent politics, often inspired by historical parallels between Golarion and Earth) greatly exceeds the number of threads I have wished to see locked. To an extent that is harder to judge (because it usually happens before I get a chance to see what was removed), the number of instances of post removal that I have seen (often for talk about religion or politics (often inspired by the same reasons) exceeds the number of instances I would like to have seen of post removal. Thus, I would advocate for more freedom to discuss real-world religion and politics, especially when finding or searching for historical parallels.

[Aberzombie]

UnArcaneElection wrote:

Thus, I would advocate for more freedom to discuss real-world religion and politics, especially when finding or searching for historical parallels.

I'd be fine with that if they'd lock it all away in a single place. They've said no before, but zombie can always dream.

[captain yesterday]

Do they though?

[Lord Snow]

Rosita the Riveter wrote:

Honestly, if I were Paizo, I'd ban political discussion in off topic. As others have said, it takes too much moderation time, and Paizo moderators are employees who have other things to be doing. Now, I'd think political discussion related to gaming should still be allowed. General political discussion? This is a private corporate website, not a public playground. I think Paizo should take steps to be more welcoming and less hostile (and I'm glad to see rules discussions are being looked into).

The easiest way to word this would "No politics in Off Topic Discussion, yes politics elsewhere, but threads that clearly belong in OTD will be locked".

On the one hand yes, this is a website belonging to a company. They of course could just say that moderating certain subforums takes too much resources and shut the lid on the whole thing.

However, what makes Paizo great, part of what makes me come back to them and their products again and again, is that they cemented themselves as more than just a corporate body that sells games. They truly are industry leaders and they truly do care about fostering a community - certainly in the U.S and as much as they can even worldwide.

And the OTD are great, for me and many others. I get to engage with people who share my hobbies and are in many ways likeminded. I get exactly the type of debate I'm looking for. Sure, other subgroups share the same space as me and the people I actually want to talk with, and that sometimes detracts from the experience.. but still, the Paizo forums have some of the most interesting and level headed discussions anywhere in the internet - and not because they're some kind of echo chamber where everyone holds the same opinion. Points and views are argued with passion as very different people with very different worldviews engage - but almost always there is a civil and moderate core to these conversations that is just a joy to be a part of.

There are many threads that have been locked that I thought should remain open. There have also been times where I just couldn't believe the stuff people were saying (one particular argument had me well and truly baffled as to how intelligent people can think such things, and I still wonder about it today) - but... I'm interacting with human beings. That's how we are as a species. I can handle it if that's what it takes to hold an interesting conversation.

And Paizo, in a truly inspiring fashion, enable this. They give me and people like me a place to talk. That's great, and I'll never want it to stop.

[Aberzombie]

captain yesterday wrote:

Do they though?

Yes. I dream of electric sheeple.

[Maneuvermoose]

Aberzombie wrote:

captain yesterday wrote:

Do they though?

Yes. I dream of electric sheeple.

But "sheeple" is an insult used primarily in the context of political arguments. If discussion of politics were banned, you wouldn't be able to dream of electric sheeple any more!

[captain yesterday]

No, he just wouldn't be able to tell you about them.

[Orthos]

Lord Snow wrote:

And the OTD are great, for me and many others. I get to engage with people who share my hobbies and are in many ways likeminded. I get exactly the type of debate I'm looking for. Sure, other subgroups share the same space as me and the people I actually want to talk with, and that sometimes detracts from the experience.. but still, the Paizo forums have some of the most interesting and level headed discussions anywhere in the internet - and not because they're some kind of echo chamber where everyone holds the same opinion. Points and views are argued with passion as very different people with very different worldviews engage - but almost always there is a civil and moderate core to these conversations that is just a joy to be a part of.

I personally do not see the appeal, but I understand that there are a decently-sized volume of people who think similarly. I don't get it, but I recognize that it's there. (I also don't see the conversations as all that civil, but I'll admit from prior conversations on the subject that while what I've seen on Paizo is pretty hostile to my experience, that compared to other places on the internet it's tame enough to not even be considered an argument. My experience is pretty limited that way, I'll be honest.)

Hence why I've been campaigning so hard to have a separate Politics forum established. It's really the best possible solution Paizo can find.

137ben wrote:

People who hate the idea of giving or taking advice on the internet can hide the advice forum. People who don't like asking or answering questions about the game rules can hide the rules forum. People who aren't interested in PFS can hide the PFS forum. People who can only talk about PFS can hide everything except the PFS forum. People who hate the concept of homebrew can hide the homebrew forum.

But people who don't want to see political threads can't hide the politics forum if there is no politics forum.

This really sums it up.

I've hidden the Rules and Advice forums because the constant arguments and backbiting and general poor environment were unpleasant, and I disliked getting suckered into it by seeing a topic on the sidebar with an interesting or intriguing name and clicking it before I realized where it was located.

I've hidden the PFS forum because I don't play PFS and I don't care for its ruleset even outside the organized-play setting so I likewise don't want to be distracted by topics focused on that style of play.

But currently we can't do the same with Politics, because Political threads that aren't directly related to something within the Golarion setting are always dumped off in OTD, which is home to a lot more than just real-world political discussion. And since a vast majority of that not-political discussion is one of the primary reasons I even bother staying on Paizo, I'd rather not hide the whole forum; on the other hand, the constant presence of political backbiting and arguments has caused the environment within the OTD to become increasingly toxic and hostile even outside the political threads, to the point of driving off many people who used to be frequent presences on the forum.

I'll keep saying it until it doesn't need to be said anymore, but since simply banning the topic is not an option - because too many people, Paizo staff included, want to have those discussions on this site - that giving them their own, separate forum, specifically dedicated to non-fictional-setting-based sociopolitically-focused discourse, is the most optimal solution. It makes the most sense, it makes the most people happy, it's certainly the easiest to implement (create one new forum, and possibly taking some time for people to get used to its presence resulting in a week or two of flagging political posts in OTD with "posted in wrong forum"), and it doesn't deprive anyone of what they desire out of Paizo's forum community - both those for and against political discourse on the site.

[Aberzombie]

adds Orthos to the List of People Never to be Eaten During the Zombiepocalypse

[Orthos]

Is this the beginning of peace between the robots and the undead?

[Aberzombie]

The world shall welcome its Cyberzombie Overlords!!!

[MendedWall12]

Aberzombie wrote:

The world shall welcome its Cyberzombie Overlords!!!

Now that's some politics I can get behind. Or start a resistance movement against, I haven't decided yet.

[Yidhra, Goddess of Paradoxes]

Why not do both? Then you can play both sides against each other and have fun while simultaneously giving yourself more time to decide. 8D

[Caineach]

The politics and religion discussions are one of the things that have set this community apart from any other I have seen on the internet. They are the reason I keep coming back on a regular basis.

[Tin Foil Yamakah]

The politics and religious discussions are one of many topics I hope to escape from on this site.

[Rednal]

After reading over everyone else's views here, I think I'm in agreement with those who'd like to give hot-button topics their own subforum. This makes them easy to hide for anyone who doesn't want to look at them, while still allowing them to be present. It seems like the best way to make everyone as happy as possible, so...

/My 2 cp

[Orthos]

Tin Foil Yamakah wrote:

The politics and religious discussions are one of many topics I hope to escape from on this site.

^ that ^

[Aberzombie]

MendedWall12 wrote:

Aberzombie wrote:

The world shall welcome its Cyberzombie Overlords!!!

Now that's some politics I can get behind. Or start a resistance movement against, I haven't decided yet.

You've got to make up your mind, so I know which list to add you to.

[Sara Marie]

137ben wrote:

People who hate the idea of giving or taking advice on the internet can hide the advice forum. People who don't like asking or answering questions about the game rules can hide the rules forum. People who aren't interested in PFS can hide the PFS forum. People who can only talk about PFS can hide everything except the PFS forum. People who hate the concept of homebrew can hide the homebrew forum.

But people who don't want to see political threads can't hide the politics forum if there is no politics forum.

Just to note, in case anyone did not know about this feature, at the far right side of the page, parallel to each thread title is a " ∅ " symbol. Clicking that will hide the thread for you. Click that, refresh, and boom, you won't see that thread ever again unless you go look for it on the list of hidden threads (accessible at the top right of the forums near the thread/forums search bar).

[Friendly Neighborhood Cultist]

Aberzombie wrote:

MendedWall12 wrote:

Aberzombie wrote:

The world shall welcome its Cyberzombie Overlords!!!

Now that's some politics I can get behind. Or start a resistance movement against, I haven't decided yet.

You've got to make up your mind, so I know which list to add you to.

How about an 'Invite to feast' list? That easily keeps track of those you need to decide later whether you invite them 'as' or 'for'...

[MendedWall12]

Aberzombie wrote:

MendedWall12 wrote:

Aberzombie wrote:

The world shall welcome its Cyberzombie Overlords!!!

Now that's some politics I can get behind. Or start a resistance movement against, I haven't decided yet.

You've got to make up your mind, so I know which list to add you to.

I'm still debating. Send me the feast invitation. If the +1 I show up with is a tall hulking half-orc brute with a Falchion, I'm probably leaning towards resistance movement.

[knightnday]

Sara Marie wrote:

137ben wrote:

People who hate the idea of giving or taking advice on the internet can hide the advice forum. People who don't like asking or answering questions about the game rules can hide the rules forum. People who aren't interested in PFS can hide the PFS forum. People who can only talk about PFS can hide everything except the PFS forum. People who hate the concept of homebrew can hide the homebrew forum.

But people who don't want to see political threads can't hide the politics forum if there is no politics forum.

Just to note, in case anyone did not know about this feature, at the far right side of the page, parallel to each thread title is a " ∅ " symbol. Clicking that will hide the thread for you. Click that, refresh, and boom, you won't see that thread ever again unless you go look for it on the list of hidden threads (accessible at the top right of the forums near the thread/forums search bar).

To beat a very dead horse, I'd love to see this idea expanded to individuals as well. Sometimes there are perfectly good discussions that are marred by people that want to derail it, need attention, or whatever other reason.

[PathlessBeth]

knightnday wrote:

Sara Marie wrote:

137ben wrote:

People who hate the idea of giving or taking advice on the internet can hide the advice forum. People who don't like asking or answering questions about the game rules can hide the rules forum. People who aren't interested in PFS can hide the PFS forum. People who can only talk about PFS can hide everything except the PFS forum. People who hate the concept of homebrew can hide the homebrew forum.

But people who don't want to see political threads can't hide the politics forum if there is no politics forum.

Just to note, in case anyone did not know about this feature, at the far right side of the page, parallel to each thread title is a " ∅ " symbol. Clicking that will hide the thread for you. Click that, refresh, and boom, you won't see that thread ever again unless you go look for it on the list of hidden threads (accessible at the top right of the forums near the thread/forums search bar).

To beat a very dead horse, I'd love to see this idea expanded to individuals as well. Sometimes there are perfectly good discussions that are marred by people that want to derail it, need attention, or whatever other reason.

anotherMage's profile has ignore scripts for ignoring specific users on Paizo.com.