Diviner - How high can it get?

[the Diviner]

Disclaimer: So this is a pure mind experiment in optimizing initiative.
I would not recommend doing this in a game if for nothing else that you are going to waste ALOT of resources on initiative.

Now to the fun stuff.
This build uses the feat Noble scion to get cha instead of Dex to initiative and then buffs charisma based check. Combined with Diviner and a couple of items you get up to +100 under the right conditions. Oh and you automatically roll 20 on the check.

Calculations!
+10 Diviner
+12 Charisma
+20 from Glory domain gained through familiar(Emisarry archetype)
+10 Wis(Amulet of the Spirits(heavens))
+2 luck(deific obedience from Desna combined with Fate's favored)
+2 trait bonus
+4 improved initiative
+4 from Greensting familiar
+4 enhancement from a dueling weapon
+3 competence from a Circlet of persuasion
+25 insight from Moment of prescience(buffed to CL 25)
+4 from heightened awareness
=100

Can anyone get this any higher? Maybe there is something I have missed. Oh and this is not taking Mythic into account. I think we could add about 30-40 to this number if you were to do that.

Notes: This assumes multiple things. First of all Binding 2 Lilitu's to force them to give you their Profane Pact for Wis and Cha. It has to be at night under the night sky. You must have had the chance to cast multiple spells and you have to have some items.

[Silver Surfer]

Just so you know Moment of Prescience doesnt work that way... initiative isnt an opposed check.

[the Diviner]

Silver Surfer wrote:

Just so you know Moment of Prescience doesnt work that way... initiative isnt an opposed check.

Alas that appears to be true. In that case Moment of Prescience will have to be switched out to the inferior Anticipate peril.

So I am once more quite a bit away from +100 to initiative (+80 at the moment). Anyone got any ideas how the regain the lost ground?

[Markov Spiked Chain]

Banner of Ancient Kings is a +4 Circumstance.

It's very unclear what the Cleric level is for an Emissary familiar's Domain power, though.

[blackbloodtroll]

Depends on the amount of cocaine available.

[Secane]

the Diviner wrote:

Now to the fun stuff.
This build uses the feat Noble scion to get cha instead of Dex to initiative and then buffs charisma based check. Combined with Diviner and a couple of items you get up to +100 under the right conditions. Oh and you automatically roll 20 on the check.

+20 from Glory domain gained through familiar(Emisarry archetype)
+10 Wis(Amulet of the Spirits(heavens))

Even if you use Cha in place of Dex for initiative, initiative itself is not a skill or ability score check.

Meaning even if a skill or items says something like "can add her Wisdom modifier to her Charisma modifier on all Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks"

You can't actually use the above skill or item to add Cha to initiative. As initiative is neither a "Charisma check" nor a "Charisma-based skill check".

[Bob Bob Bob]

Ifrit with Wildfire Heart?

[Avoron]

Secane wrote:

the Diviner wrote:

Now to the fun stuff.
This build uses the feat Noble scion to get cha instead of Dex to initiative and then buffs charisma based check. Combined with Diviner and a couple of items you get up to +100 under the right conditions. Oh and you automatically roll 20 on the check.

+20 from Glory domain gained through familiar(Emisarry archetype)
+10 Wis(Amulet of the Spirits(heavens))

Even if you use Cha in place of Dex for initiative, initiative itself is not a skill or ability score check.

Meaning even if a skill or items says something like "can add her Wisdom modifier to her Charisma modifier on all Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks"

You can't actually use the above skill or item to add Cha to initiative. As initiative is neither a "Charisma check" nor a "Charisma-based skill check".

Combat wrote:

An initiative check is a Dexterity check.

and

Noble Scion wrote:

You use your Charisma modifier to adjust Initiative checks instead of your Dexterity modifier.

and

this FAQ

[Secane]

Hummm... Well that is something new that I learned today.

[Snowlilly]

Ifrit Kensai

+16 Dexterity (includes size bonus to dex from Elemental Body III)
+11 Intelligence
+20 from Glory domain gained through familiar(Emisarry archetype)
+2 Luck
+2 Trait
+4 Improved Familiar
+4 Greensting
+4 Dueling Weapon
+5 Anticipate Peril
+4 Heightened Senses
+1 Circumstance - Ioun stone
+2 Aldori Dueling Mastery
+4 Racial
+4 Moral (Good Hope + Moment of Greatness)
+2 Alchemical - Boiling Blood Pill
=86

Gets the automatic roll of 20 (for a flat 106) and cannot be surprised, just like a Diviner.

*Banner of Ancient kings: pole or spear must be held in two hands

[Anzyr]

Arkalion has a flat 78. 76 now post Courageous nerf.

[blackbloodtroll]

Blood-boiling pill for +2 Alchemical Bonus.

Horacalcum armor gives an untyped bonus.

[Avoron]

Snowlilly, the amulet of the spirits and the circlet of persuasion both work fine - look at the posts just above yours.

I believe there's an ioun stone that will give you a +1 morale bonus, and Moment of Greatness would double that.

Contracting lycanthropy and taking Aspect of the Beast can give another +2.

Edit: It seems like you could get your Cha and Wis a bit higher - are you counting the bonuses from venerable age?

[Markov Spiked Chain]

Quote:

Blood-boiling pill for +2 Alchemical Bonus.

+4 when you use a Vial of Efficacious Medicine.

[Avoron]

There are some things that give +2 bonuses in specific conditions, such as Cold Celerity (below 0 degrees F), Corsair of Taldor (on a ship), a Halflight Charm (underground), or Boots of Friendly Terrain (in the right terrain). Not sure if you want to count some of those or not.

Totem Spirit (hawk clan) gives a blanket +2.

You can use limited wish to get hunter's blessing and eaglesoul for another +4.

Signiture Skill (sense motive) lets you pump your initiative even higher by pumping your sense motive bonus to crazy levels.

Multiclassing might be a viable option, at least to get Int, Wis, and Cha to initiative. You could actually also get an insight bonus equal to your wisdom bonus from the Cave Domain, which stacks with your wisdom bonus from the amulet.
Even without the diviner or kensai capstones, you can still get the automatic 20 through a Cyclops Helm.

[the Diviner]

Fantastic suggestions!

And yes Venerable would increase this by quite a bit

So with these suggestions and a slightly different stat selections my Diviner is currently sitting at this:

Calculations! 
+10 Diviner 
+16 Charisma 
+4 racial
+20 from Glory domain gained through familiar(Emisarry archetype) 
+12 Wis(Amulet of the Spirits(heavens)) 
+2 luck(deific obedience from Desna combined with Fate's favored) 
+2 trait bonus 
+4 improved initiative 
+4 from Greensting familiar 
+4 enhancement from a dueling weapon
+4 circumstance from Banner 
+4 morale (Good hope + Momnt of Greatness)
+4 alchemical (Blood-boiling pill+
Vial of Efficacious Medicine)
+3 competence from a Circlet of persuasion 
+5 insight from Anticipate Peril 
+4 from heightened awareness 
+3 from a Horacalcum armor
+2 from Boots of the Friendly Terrain
+2 from Totem Spirit(Hawk clan)
+2 Sacred from Hunter's Blessing
+2 from Eaglesoul
=
+113

Now multiclassing into Kensai to get Int to this or getting access to the level 8 Cave domain thingy would certainly improve this. But it would also mean that the bonus from Glory domain decreases and that you lose out on a few bonuses from Diviner.

[Snowlilly]

Kensai requires a serious level investment to get int -> initiative.

[Markov Spiked Chain]

I think Boots of Friendly Terrain only work if you're a Ranger?

[Silver Surfer]

As a wizard you cant use Horacalcum armour without spell failure risk and you cant use both the Banner and the Dueling Weapon since the Banner needs both hands. Also you will have to bring down any WIS related stuff as Ifrit's get a -2 to WIS and so this will affect your initial points buy.

[the Diviner]

Silver Surfer wrote:

As a wizard you cant use Horacalcum armour without spell failure risk and you cant use both the Banner and the Dueling Weapon since the Banner needs both hands.

The plan is to put on the armor before entering battle.

Oh and the Banner can be put on a longspear, something you can btw enhance with Dueling ;)

[the Diviner]

Snowlilly wrote:

Kensai requires a serious level investment to get int -> initiative.

Yeah, 7 levels is just too much. That would mean you lose 10 from diviner(7 from glory domain and 3 from level).

[Avoron]

Markov Spiked Chain wrote:

I think Boots of Friendly Terrain only work if you're a Ranger?

You can fake it with UMD.

Silver Surfer wrote:

you cant use both the Banner and the Dueling Weapon since the Banner needs both hands

How about putting your Banner on a Dueling Elven Branched Spear?

[Silver Surfer]

We have a winner..... Initiative bonus of +149 :))

Elfrit - Divine Strategist of Iomedae - Glory and Tactics (Exalted) - assuming a 25 point buy

+ 4 racial
+4 improved initiative (feat)
+2 reactionary (trait)
+16 (noble scion CHA instead of DEX to initiative)
+20 (Glory domain)
+20 Divine strategist (auto roll at Lvl 20)
+10 Divine strategist (1/2 level to initiative)
+1 warrior priest feat
+7 (luck bonus - Cleromancy - maximised+empowered + fates favoured)
+6 (sacred bonus - Planned Assault )
+5 (morale bonus - Bloodsworn Retribution)
+12 (Wis to initiative - 2nd domain for Exalted - Tactics Inquisition)
+4 from Greensting familiar
+4 (enhancement bonus - dueling weapon)
+4 (circumstance bonus - Banner of Ancient Kings)
+4 alchemical (Blood-boiling pill+ Vial of Efficacious Medicine)
+3 (competence bonus - Circlet of persuasion)
+5 (insight bonus - Anticipate Peril)
+4 (Heightened Awareness)
+2 (Eaglesoul)
+2 from Totem Spirit(Hawk clan)
+12 (Amulet of the Spirits(heavens))
+2 from Boots of the Friendly Terrain

[the Diviner]

Silver Surfer wrote:

We have a winner..... Initiative bonus of +149 :))

Elfrit - Divine Strategist of Iomedae - Glory and Tactics (Exalted) - assuming a 25 point buy

+ 4 racial
+4 improved initiative (feat)
+2 reactionary (trait)
+16 (noble scion CHA instead of DEX to initiative)
+20 (Glory domain)
+20 Divine strategist (auto roll at Lvl 20)
+10 Divine strategist (1/2 level to initiative)
+1 warrior priest feat
+7 (luck bonus - Cleromancy - maximised+empowered + fates favoured)
+6 (sacred bonus - Planned Assault )
+5 (morale bonus - Bloodsworn Retribution)
+12 (Wis to initiative - 2nd domain for Exalted - Tactics Inquisition)
+4 from Greensting familiar
+4 (enhancement bonus - dueling weapon)
+4 (circumstance bonus - Banner of Ancient Kings)
+4 alchemical (Blood-boiling pill+ Vial of Efficacious Medicine)
+3 (competence bonus - Circlet of persuasion)
+5 (insight bonus - Anticipate Peril)
+4 (Heightened Awareness)
+2 (Eaglesoul)
+2 from Totem Spirit(Hawk clan)
+12 (Amulet of the Spirits(heavens))
+2 from Boots of the Friendly Terrain

Very nice. Now we just need to get the Mythic Dual initiative monster ability on this bad boy ^^

[Hubaris]

You can boost Elfrit even more with Variant Multiclass (Wizard: Divination), it will net you 10 more.

[Avoron]

the Diviner wrote:

Silver Surfer wrote:

We have a winner..... Initiative bonus of +149 :))

Elfrit - Divine Strategist of Iomedae - Glory and Tactics (Exalted) - assuming a 25 point buy

+ 4 racial
+4 improved initiative (feat)
+2 reactionary (trait)
+16 (noble scion CHA instead of DEX to initiative)
+20 (Glory domain)
+20 Divine strategist (auto roll at Lvl 20)
+10 Divine strategist (1/2 level to initiative)
+1 warrior priest feat
+7 (luck bonus - Cleromancy - maximised+empowered + fates favoured)
+6 (sacred bonus - Planned Assault )
+5 (morale bonus - Bloodsworn Retribution)
+12 (Wis to initiative - 2nd domain for Exalted - Tactics Inquisition)
+4 from Greensting familiar
+4 (enhancement bonus - dueling weapon)
+4 (circumstance bonus - Banner of Ancient Kings)
+4 alchemical (Blood-boiling pill+ Vial of Efficacious Medicine)
+3 (competence bonus - Circlet of persuasion)
+5 (insight bonus - Anticipate Peril)
+4 (Heightened Awareness)
+2 (Eaglesoul)
+2 from Totem Spirit(Hawk clan)
+12 (Amulet of the Spirits(heavens))
+2 from Boots of the Friendly Terrain

Very nice. Now we just need to get the Mythic Dual initiative monster ability on this bad boy ^^

It's an extraordinary ability that functions automatically, so you could get it by gating an Elohim and using a scroll of Major Mind Swap. This also helps deal with your certainly dumped physical stats and gives you some pretty amazing defensive abilities to boot.

[Slithery D]

Avoron wrote:

It's an extraordinary ability that functions automatically, so you could get it by gating an Elohim and using a scroll of Major Mind Swap. This also helps deal with your certainly dumped physical stats and gives you some pretty amazing defensive abilities to boot.

Major Mind Swap only works on your same creature type, look at the target line. You can't permanently upgrade to a new creature type, just go shopping for high physical attribute slave, that's the best you can do.

[Avoron]

That's why you use Mind Swap to get into one Elohim's body before using Major Mind Swap to get from that into a second.

[Slithery D]

Your type doesn't change when you use Mind Swap.

[Slithery D]

On second thought, I'd say your type does change while Ina Mind Swap as far as the body goes, so you retain some type traits of the body and some of your mind, like bonus feats (eleven sleep immunity?). So I could see Majot Mind Swap working, but when your Mind Swap expires the original Elohim is in the second body and you're back in yours. Take your pick between that and it not working at all.

[Avoron]

The rules are unclear on exactly what would happen when the first Mind Swap runs out.

But you could probably get around that by imprisoning both your body and the intermediary in a timeless demiplane.

If not, you can give up on mindswapping and just use a continually refreshed Greater Possession.