Hello everyone, I have a question for you.
We (4 players) are going to start a new campaign (our first in Pathfinder). I want to try one of the new classes and I want to be an hybride between fighting and casting, with dex as primary stat for fighting (yeah I know it's pretty specific).
Anyway my two choice are :
- Magus dervish dancer (bladebound and maybe kensai)
- Inquisitor with ranged weapon
My personnal favorite is the magus, but I wait for the choice of the ohter players. One of them already choose an alchemist (with gun) and the 2 other are limited to the basic class (GM choice, it's their first game).
So, after this long introduction, my question is :
Is the magus usefull in a party where there is already another arcane spell caster ? (especially a small party of 4 players).
If the other caster is a wizard-like, he can have all the utility spell (which the magus doesn't have) but if he is a sorcerer-like and only have evocation spell ...
In that case what can be the role of a magus ? A full fighter class will be more usefull.
The other will always be better and with only 4 players I don't think that two arcane spell caster are usefull...
The wizard and magus will typically fill very different roles, though the magus can step up to assist the wizard if required.
Bladebound Kensai is a good dex build, but plays very differently than a standard magus. Kensai is very effective as melee dpr/evasion tank. Their spellcasting is limited until higher level, and will have a far lower DC. You will focus on spells that augment your melee ability, with a handful of utility spells and CC spells tossed in.
Ok thanks.
I think i'll only take kensai if i'm the only player in melee or if there is another caster.
It loose too many thing related to spell casting.
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A Magus will do just fine in a party with another caster, because whatever role that caster takes, the Magus can take another.
Yes, a Magus can be a great damage dealer. But if the sorcerer decides to be blasty, you can also build an effective debuff/control Magus. Aside from that, you can use Spell Blending to grab whatever useful spells the sorc doesn't have.
At low levels, the kensai is not so good, because of its diminished spellcasting; it's great at levels 11 and up (when it can actually take those crit feats) but until then I'd recommend other archetypes instead.
As a side note though, the DC's for a Kensai will not be lower than a regular Magus - they will most likely be higher!
Lower than a full caster. The magus is more likely to place priority on str/dex and less likely to take Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus.
Thanks for all this answer.
I will give you a feedback in a few days when i will know the choice of the other player. But im pretty sur im going for the magus (exept if the gm dont allow dervish dancer, because it's not in the base book )
I don't really like the feat which just add a +x to something, i'm not looking for a super optimality. We have few feats so when I choose one I want it to add new gameplay option, like the metamagic feat, dervish dancer, crafting skill, or improved prehensible tail with my tiefling ...
If you can't get Dervish Dance, I would strongly suggest going with a strength based Magus rather than a Dex based one.
Arcane strike is not very good on a Magus; this is because the Magus has a ton of other things to spend his minor action on.
Depends on the campaign. A longer adventuring day increases the usefulness of arcane strike.
The Bladebound Kensai, with both a reduced arcane pool and no spell recall will get far more usage from Arcane Strike than a regular magus.
I'm also starting to think Arcane Strike could be great for an Eldritch Archer - Extra damage that doesn't come with an attack roll penalty, and leads into Riving Strike. With a 3/4 BAB and no bonuses to-hit that don't come from spending a daily resource, they can't afford to be taking - 2 from Spell Combat, -2 from Rapid Shot, and -n from Deadly Aim. At least, not without Arcane Pool and Arcane Accuracy up.
Even for a melee Magus, if you have the feat to spare, it ensures that your Swift Action is doing something useful in every round.
If the other caster is actually a Wizard, they can each copy off each other's free spells at level-up (and any independently researched spells). Not sure off the top of my head if Arcanists can do the same.
Since both can craft magic items fairly well, there shouldn't be much worry about overlapping gear requirements. The only gear they both need will be the Int headband, or the things that everyone needs like Cloaks of Resistance.
Finally, and sorry to keep editing this post so many times, consider Bard or Inquisitor. Especially if the other players choose their classes, and it turns out that either no one can deal with traps (go Archaeologist Bard), or no one has Interaction skills. Either class can do very well in combat with a Dex focus (Dervish Dance or Archery), though both styles take a couple of feats to get going.
Yeah my second choice was the inquisitor for social interaction and usefull (CSI like ) spell and abilities.
What do you think of a 1lvl dip in a dervish of dawn bard ?
I loose 1 bab, 1 caster lvl (i can get it back with trait ). But i have 1 free feat (actually 2 because i dont need weapon finesse ), more knowledge skill and some nice utility spell. Biggest drawback is that i need at least 11Cha if i want to use the spells.
Yeah my second choice was the inquisitor for social interaction and usefull (CSI like ) spell and abilities.
What do you think of a 1lvl dip in a dervish of dawn bard ?
I loose 1 bab, 1 caster lvl (i can get it back with trait ). But i have 1 free feat (actually 2 because i dont need weapon finesse ), more knowledge skill and some nice utility spell. Biggest drawback is that i need at least 11Cha if i want to use the spells.
I'm not a fan of multiclassing when the main class has spellcasting and/or other awesome class features, which the Inquisitor has. Feats come in time, but that level of class progression can never be made up (unless you retrain that level, and then pick up those two feats anyways).
Also, I just read your original post again, and I'll also say that there is no such thing as too many casters. As long as you have a healthy mix of "combat-capable" spellcasters (Cleric, Oracle, Magus, Inquisitor, Bard, Summoner, etc.) you're good to go. Each one brings more resources and more utility to the table, especially once the group has been together long enough to coordinate their spell selection.
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y'know, another potential sweet spot for the magus to fill might actually be in creating the arms and armor for the group. If the wizard focuses on crafting the wondrous items, and the magus on the arms and armor, you would have a very well equipped group. Make that magus a Soul Forger, and he can create any weapon or armor that would be anywhere near the party's wealth level without batting an eye.
You could also just go bard all the way, if you want. They do the dex-based thing very well, either as archers or as rapier/scimitar wielding duelists.
As a side note though, the DC's for a Kensai will not be lower than a regular Magus - they will most likely be higher!Lower than a full caster. The magus is more likely to place priority on str/dex and less likely to take Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus.Ah, gotcha - I thought you were saying that they were lower than other Magi. My bad!
Human Kensai with 20 point builds will probably go 16 Int, Elves will probably go 18, but you are right that spell focus isn't usually taken. So 0-1 less than the DC's of a non-SoD specialist wizard, and 2-3 below them.
If you do go elf, note that there's a new trait that lets them grab spell focus for free.
Well, technically it's at the cost of Elven Magic and Weapon familarity, but one of those are useless to you, so it's a trade-off between spell focus and spell penetration, effectively.
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Also note that there's a new elf trait that lets you grab Spell Focus for free.
Well, technically it's at the cost of keen senses, and only for illusion/transmutation/conjuration... but, cheaper than elven magic and weapon familiarity.
And magi can still cast snowball and color spray. ^_^
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Then you'll probably be as happy as I am that Inner Sea Races lets half-elves trade adaptability for Elven Weapon Familiarity.