As we all know, the turn-based nature of this game is an abstraction created for ease of play. The characters themselves are continuously moving. A person jumping over a chasm, for example, doesn't just freeze in mid-air because his turn ends. He completes (or doesn't complete) the jump in one continuous motion.
With that in mind, is it possible for a kineticist to continually use his ride the blast utility wild talent without ever "coming up for air?"
Take an aerokineticist with wings of air for example, could he blast off from the ground in the form of lightning, activating his blast each round, and soar though the sky across the country as a lightning bolt?
Or does he have to resume humanoid form every six seconds and make a fly check to hover?
I like to think the former is true, but I'm looking for rules support.
I think the fact that its a standard action means that its not something constantly happening. This is supported, i think, by the fact that you have a sort of casting time for the blast that can provoke attacks of opportunity.
However, given that its a standard action, you can also couple it with a move action to fly even further. You need not hover.
I think the fact that its a standard action means that its not something constantly happening. This is supported, i think, by the fact that you have a sort of casting time for the blast that can provoke attacks of opportunity.
However, given that its a standard action, you can also couple it with a move action to fly even further. You need not hover.
So a person who spends ONLY a single move action each round to move is actually starting and stopping, rather than just walking slower?
I imagine b-up for pikachu in smash bros.
the big issue is that you need to see where you are going in between bursts. if i was GMing, i would let a player do this over long distances and in mostly straight lines, for the pure flavor. but in combat, and (i think) rules as written, you cant do it.
this is my personal interpretation, but convincing arguments could change my mind either way
I imagine b-up for pikachu in smash bros.
And I imagine Wagnard from Record of Lodoss War.
the big issue is that you need to see where you are going in between bursts. if i was GMing, i would let a player do this over long distances and in mostly straight lines, for the pure flavor. but in combat, and (i think) rules as written, you cant do it.
this is my personal interpretation, but convincing arguments could change my mind either way
Seems an odd interpretation as nothing in ride the blast indicates you lose the ability to sense your surroundings.
Do you have a blast you want to combine it with that isn't a standard action?
As far as I know, there's no such thing aside from Quicken metakinesis.
Per RAW, somebody who doesn't have an ability to fly would fall if they weren't supported at the end of their ride the blast. I expect most people will have wings of air, greater flame jet or greater self-telekinesis.
Per RAW, somebody who doesn't have an ability to fly would fall if they weren't supported at the end of their ride the blast. I expect most people will have wings of air, greater flame jet or greater self-telekinesis.
The thing with extreme range is that it is JUST outside of the range needed to keep up altitude.
You need 500 feet if you want to cast something other than immediate action (ie- feather fall). And extreme range is 480 feet.
So going by air is pretty much the realm of those with flight, or air users with air's reach (since even if they, for some inexplicable reason, don't have flight, they can spend a turn getting altitude to stay up).
Not that you are necessarily restricted to places you can walk to though. Besides the fact that you are basically doing a superjump, there are other methods to stop yourself from falling. An earth user could use their climb speed in order to latch onto a wall, and then do a wall jump each turn. That would get you to most places other than only an airship/dragon mount.
Side note- Water users also get air walk, basically, via the ice path ability. So even they can stay in air. The only one earth bound is earth...and as I said, he still has options (he also has the option of 5' stepping into the ground with earthglide, and then gathering power to his hearts content...which is a fair trade for being the only one without some flight, along with the usual advantages of earth glide)
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Do you have a blast you want to combine it with that isn't a standard action?As far as I know, there's no such thing aside from Quicken metakinesis.
Then I don't think you're going to be able to find a way within the rules to do what you describe since you can only "fly" for about 3 seconds out of 6 per round.
One doesn't have to spend all his actions each round you know. Just because I don't double move round to round doesn't mean I've stopped walking.
If all I'm doing is standard action blast, followed by standard action blast, then I see absolutely no reason it can't be described as continuous.
I think you're getting caught up on the rules minutiae of an ABSTRACT system.
One doesn't have to spend all his actions each round you know. Just because I don't double move round to round doesn't mean I've stopped walking.
If all I'm doing is standard action blast, followed by standard action blast, then I see absolutely no reason it can't be described as continuous.
I think you're getting caught up on the rules minutiae of an ABSTRACT system.
I think the problem with this is that a character cannot continuously do standard actions, he can only manage one every 6 seconds except through some unusual ability. Thematically, i would argue that the kinetecist, even though he can do this all day, can only muster up the energy for each blast so quickly. Until he can muster up the next blast, he's in freefall.
Check: You generally need only make a Fly check when you are attempting a complex maneuver. Without making a check, a flying creature can remain flying at the end of its turn so long as it moves a distance greater than half its speed. It can also turn up to 45 degrees by sacrificing 5 feet of movement, can rise at half speed at an angle of 45 degrees, and can descend at any angle at normal speed. Note that these restrictions only apply to movement taken during your current turn. At the beginning of the next turn, you can move in a different direction than you did the previous turn without making a check. Taking any action that violates these rules requires a Fly check. The difficulty of these maneuvers varies depending upon the maneuver you are attempting, as noted on the following chart.
I don't have ride the blast in front of me, but per the Fly skill you are not falling in between rounds. If you are moving at less than half speed, you need to make a fly check (DC 10) to keep from falling, but at regular speeds it is considered flying. The rule also says you get to make a free direction change each round (because the game does not assume facing). A dragon can breath or bite every round it is flying, even with clumsy maneuverability and a physical (wings) based flight. I see no difference (unless it is called out in ride the blast).
I don't have ride the blast in front of me, but per the Fly skill you are not falling in between rounds. If you are moving at less than half speed, you need to make a fly check (DC 10) to keep from falling, but at regular speeds it is considered flying. The rule also says you get to make a free direction change each round (because the game does not assume facing). A dragon can breath or bite every round it is flying, even with clumsy maneuverability and a physical (wings) based flight. I see no difference (unless it is called out in ride the blast).
The fly skill has no relation to this conversation.
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One doesn't have to spend all his actions each round you know. Just because I don't double move round to round doesn't mean I've stopped walking.
If all I'm doing is standard action blast, followed by standard action blast, then I see absolutely no reason it can't be described as continuous.
I think you're getting caught up on the rules minutiae of an ABSTRACT system.
I think you're abstracting the rules too much. Just because you're not spending your actions doesn't mean the time allotted for them vanishes.
The fly skill has no relation to this conversation.
I beg to differ. It is very relevant. Curaigh makes a fine point by establishing a precedent for a person not simply falling out of the sky simply because his turn or movement ended.
I think you're abstracting the rules too much. Just because you're not spending your actions doesn't mean the time allotted for them vanishes.
Of course time doesn't vanish, the action is merely extended to fill the time.
If I am spending a move action to move each round, then I am still continuously moving, but I am doing so more slowly than if I was double-moving or running.
If I am streaking across the sky as a lightning bolt as a standard action each round, then I am still continuously moving, but I am doing it more slowly than if I had Extreme Range and Air's Reach. That establishes that we can change the speed of ride the blast, just like we can change the speed of our walking pace.
I honestly think you aren't abstracting things ENOUGH, to the point where you have these illogical stop and go scenarios from the perspectives of the characters. The characters don't actually stop and wait for each other to take turns (from their perspectives at least), it's all one continuous flowing battle.
If you are walking slowly, you are double moving for half the distance with each action.
If you are walking slowly, you are double moving for half the distance with each action.
According to what exactly? I can't think of any reason for someone to have arrived at this conclusion.
What if I was casting a spell with a long casting time while I walked? Would a GM state that I would be stopping and casting every six seconds just because I wasn't taking the double-move action? Of course not! They would say that I am continuously casting the spell while I walked, continuously, slowly.
If that's the case, then why does my walk suddenly become stop and go just because I am not spending my standard action? The clear answer is that it doesn't! That would be totally illogical!
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If you are walking slowly, you are double moving for half the distance with each action.According to what exactly? I can't think of any reason for someone to have arrived at this conclusion.
What if I was casting a spell with a long casting time while I walked? Would a GM state that I would be stopping and casting every six seconds just because I wasn't taking the double-move action? Of course not! They would say that I am continuously casting the spell while I walked, continuously, slowly.
If that's the case, then why does my walk suddenly become stop and go just because I am not spending my standard action? The clear answer is that it doesn't! That would be totally illogical!
Is there anything that supports casting while walking?
Normally you have good insight and find actual rules discrepancies. But this just isn't one of them. There is nothing in the rules that supports "taking longer to perform an action so that I can skip other actions."
RD what are you targeting in your scenario?
RD what are you targeting in your scenario?
A point in space most likely. The rules for blasts and pretty much all of the infusions don't limit you to a particular kind of target. It could be literally anything.
The fly skill has no relation to this conversation.I beg to differ. It is very relevant. Curaigh makes a fine point by establishing a precedent for a person not simply falling out of the sky simply because his turn or movement ended.
Ah, I think there's a bit of dissonance between what each of us are saying.
Someone with the ability to fly will still have their move action. They can choose to use it and simply add a little bit of movement to their blast range each turn, or they can choose to skip their move action and have to make a hover check for not moving, since ride the blast isn't technically moving in this case.
As for free fall, that's what happens to someone without the ability to fly. What will happen is, say, someone with only the extreme range infusion fires a ride the blast straight up, he'll be 480 feet into the air. This rule becomes relevant:
A character cannot cast a spell while falling, unless the fall is greater than 500 feet or the spell is an immediate action, such as feather fall. Casting a spell while falling requires a concentration check with a DC equal to 20 + the spell's level. Casting teleport or a similar spell while falling does not end your momentum, it just changes your location, meaning that you still take falling damage, even if you arrive atop a solid surface.
So he doesn't even have time to cast that next ride the blast before he goes plummeting back to the earth.
In general, most evidence points to a spell with a casting time of a standard action taking roughly 3-6 seconds to cast, and the amount of effort and/or exertion on the body prevents you from being capable of doing a standard action more than once every 6 seconds. This is why I say that people without a flight skill will enter freefall between blasts, and people with a flight skill should simply use their move action between blasts.
For Reference
Ride the Blast
Element(s) universal; Type utility (Sp); Level 6; Burn 0
You can use this wild talent as part of activating a kinetic blast other than telekinetic blast. You transform yourself into your element or energy and send yourself along with your kinetic blast. You appear at the end of the blast's path, adjacent to the blast's target (or final target, for form infusions like chain) or at the center of the burst or spread for form infusions like explosion. This ability doesn't work with form infusions that involve melee attacks (such as kinetic blade) or that use a cone shape (such as spray).
"You appear at the end of the blast's path"
This.
You can't stay in elemental form continuously. There don't seem to be any rules for that form. If your GM did rule that you could do this continuously, what effect does being in elemental energy form have on incoming attacks ?
Ah, I think there's a bit of dissonance between what each of us are saying.
Someone with the ability to fly will still have their move action. They can choose to use it and simply add a little bit of movement to their blast range each turn, or they can choose to skip their move action and have to make a hover check for not moving, since ride the blast isn't technically moving in this case.
As for free fall, that's what happens to someone without the ability to fly. What will happen is, say, someone with only the extreme range infusion fires a ride the blast straight up, he'll be 480 feet into the air. This rule becomes relevant:
A character cannot cast a spell while falling, unless the fall is greater than 500 feet or the spell is an immediate action, such as feather fall. Casting a spell while falling requires a concentration check with a DC equal to 20 + the spell's level. Casting teleport or a similar spell while falling does not end your momentum, it just changes your location, meaning that you still take falling damage, even if you arrive atop a solid surface.So he doesn't even have time to cast that next ride the blast before he goes plummeting back to the earth.
In general, most evidence points to a spell with a casting time of a standard action taking roughly 3-6 seconds to cast, and the amount of effort and/or exertion on the body prevents you from being capable of doing a standard action more than once every 6 seconds. This is why I say that people without a flight skill will enter freefall between blasts, and people with a flight skill should simply use their move action between blasts.
For Reference
Ride the Blast
Element(s) universal; Type utility (Sp); Level 6; Burn 0
You can use this wild talent as part of activating a kinetic blast other than telekinetic blast. You transform yourself into your element or energy and send yourself along with your kinetic blast. You appear at the end of the blast's path, adjacent to the blast's target (or final target, for form infusions like chain) or at the center of the burst or spread for form infusions like explosion. This ability doesn't work with form infusions that involve melee attacks (such as kinetic blade) or that use a cone shape (such as spray).
"You appear at the end of the blast's path"
This.
You can't stay in elemental form continuously. There don't seem to be any rules for that form. If your GM did rule that you could do this continuously, what effect does being in elemental energy form have on incoming attacks ?
Finally! Opposition with teeth!
I believe this answers my initial question, refutes my claims adequately, and strongly supports your own.
I shall have to resort to GM leniency for what I want then, as it clearly is not RAW.
(I still think a great many things function continuously, per my many examples, but ride the blast clearly isn't one of them, per your quoted rules.)
I don't think by current rules you can do a continuous Ride the Blast. I do however think there should be a power for doing that.
I'd still like to know what rule you're using that lets you elongate your standard action so you don't have to expend any time for you move action (or not have any time left for no move action).
It's not a rule, it's an abstraction. I'm using the same assumption that says an attack isn't actually a single swing at your opponent every six seconds, but rather a single attempt to harm your opponent, which could well be (visualized as) a combination of several thrusts, parries, and feints.
This is a roleplaying game, not a rollplaying game. Some abstraction is not only expected, but necessary for the game to function.
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It's an abstraction with clearly defined rules. You can't just ignore the rules under the umbrella statement "it's an abstraction" to try and do something that doesn't fit under those clearly defined rules. For the game to function, you should probably follow the rules that are already defined and use abstractions for things that aren't defined to make them fit within the game.
Alright, claudekennilol, if I as a player was to say that my character was taking a move action each round to move 30 feet (and only a single move action), then how might YOU describe that, visually, in-game?
Question has been asked and answered. Let's drop the (literally) abstract argument.
If we're talking about abstractions, elemental overflow could make you look enough like your element to pull off the look, even while using your move action.
Can you always just target a point in space? I thought that was only with area effect spells or grenade like weapons.
If we're talking about abstractions, elemental overflow could make you look enough like your element to pull off the look, even while using your move action.
That's an idea! I imagine you'd still be recognizable enough to identify though.
Can you always just target a point in space? I thought that was only with area effect spells or grenade like weapons.
As far as I can tell, it's no different then shooting an arrow or a scorching ray into the air.
If you couldn't do that, then the obvious next question becomes "why not?"
The text is vague, but Mark has suggested there is an intent for you to be able ride the blast to an empty square.
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For what little it's worth, I think the visuals of this effect are a rather beautiful display of light and sound if you decide/need to use Gather Power while feather falling between blasts.
Things like this are why it's my secret mission to give every single one of my Pathfinder characters some kind of cool looking movement ability.
@Ravingdork: Be a Tengu w/Glide alt racial trait. Then you Ride the Blast up and Glide down at feather fall speed. That lets you stay airborn for as long as you want.
/cevah
For Reference
Ride the Blast
Element(s) universal; Type utility (Sp); Level 6; Burn 0
You can use this wild talent as part of activating a kinetic blast other than telekinetic blast. You transform yourself into your element or energy and send yourself along with your kinetic blast. You appear at the end of the blast's path, adjacent to the blast's target (or final target, for form infusions like chain) or at the center of the burst or spread for form infusions like explosion. This ability doesn't work with form infusions that involve melee attacks (such as kinetic blade) or that use a cone shape (such as spray).
"You appear at the end of the blast's path"
This.
You can't stay in elemental form continuously. There don't seem to be any rules for that form. If your GM did rule that you could do this continuously, what effect does being in elemental energy form have on incoming attacks ?
I know this is an old thread but I wanted to chime in a few points. #1 Just to clarify (for people thinking you can't use this to "fly" because of this thread) ride the blast could be a very rapid form of flight like movement even in the air with a few adjustments. Some sort of unlimited feather fall ability (which air has) is needed not to eventually go splat. The extreme range mixed with Air's Reach will make it have a range of 960 feet. Add in wings of air and you can add another 60ft move a total of 1020ft per round = 115MPH. Not bad. With just feather fall you could move 958ft per round and still remain airborn.
#2 Just for flavor of the game I could see a lightning bolt streaking across the sky (continuously) unless something interfered with them (like an attack). If observers aren't actively looking for a creature in the lightning then I'd have them do a perception check to notice what's happening up there.
#3 I'd let a player use the fly skill instead of acrobatics checks in midair in this case.
