Look from my personal experience first ask yourself if your table is full of friends who are cool with one another having cooler toys, cause giving mythic tiers only to some can breed envy like few things with time.
I haven't played enough mythic to know how powerful martials with mythic tiers get so I'm skeptical about whether or not it's overpowered.
Then there's the issue of 'What happens when you play a mythic game? do they get double tiers.
Then there's an issue of identifying the martials that need mythic tiers that wouldn't get grossly overpowered by it.
Echoing Lazar, mythic power for martials helps them leap ahead of casters.
I think if you limit it to ONE mythic tier (maybe two) you'd be okay, the early mythic tiers aren't exceptionally powerful.
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Hey guys,
I'm balancing out the power levels for my campaign using the philosophy that Martial/Utility characters are better at doing martial/utility things than a Magic User is without Magic. As a result, I've added things like Pathfinder Unchained's Signature Skills and Combat Stamina to the Utility/Martial characters.
With that in mind, I'm considering rounding out the adjustments by giving characters without ANY access to magic Mythic levels, while preventing ANY character with intrinsic Magic from having Mythic Abilities. So a Rogue gets Mythic levels, but a Bard does not. In addition, the Hierophant and Archmage paths are simply not available.
The question isn't the direction, but the timing - what level of magic spell is roughly the equivalent of a Mythic Tier?
I'm currently considering Mythic Tiers at levels 8, 11, and 13-20, with the idea being that a Mythic Tier is roughly equivalent to a 4th level spell. Is that a solid comparison?
So, casters change the type of game they're capable of playing about every other spell level, starting at 3rd (then 5th, 7th, 9th). If you gave a Mythic Tier at 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th, you'd be in a pretty solid place. Best to stop before Force of Will comes online if not everyone is getting Tiers.
You should also limit the paths they have access to to Champion, Guardian, Marshal, and Trickster, and I'd even consider disallowing characters who select this option to multiclass into a spellcasting class, cause things can get hairy quick. The mythic options for spellcasters are for real bonkers.
I've been doing some thinking about this over the last few months since it's come up a few times. Here's how I'd make it work:
1.) Keep the suggested Mythic Tier progression the same.
2.) Removes most of the flat numbers boosters (Mythic Power Attack and Enhanced Ability for example). Keep Mythic Vital Strike but use the common sense interpretation.
3.) Move Amazing Initiative to 5th Tier, drop the Init bonus to 1/2 Tier or remove entirely. Move Recuperation's "Get back the uses of your limited per day class abilities" to like 9th Tier.
3a.) Remove Force of Will's ability to make other creatures re-roll things.
3b.) Remove Mythic Saving Throws, Immortal, And Legendary Hero entirely.
4.) Make the Ability Score bonus an Enhancement bonus that stacks with itself up to +6. This stops ability scores from growing to enormous heights, but lets players either apply the bonus to ability scores they wouldn't otherwise increase (Int, Cha), or save money on Belts and Headbands they do need.
5.) Rework or tone down Legendary Item. Might be best to treat it somewhat like an Arcane Bond (they're considered to have the relevant Crafting feat for upgrading it, and it cots half as much) for free, and then add extra abilities rather than insane stuff like Undetectable or Foe Biting.
This should give plenty of awesome options to martials, but without the unnecessary huge numbers boosts and things that make Mythic characters invincible vs non-Mythic enemies.
I would introduce it way earlier than 8th level. Maybe, like, fourth or fifth.
I've seen mythic in play, it isn't broken for Martials.
I don't recommend using mythic at all. It's a blunt force solution in for a problem that's not inherent in the game.
If you think your martials are falling behind... stop coddling your casters. Don't let them make custom spells, don't let them abuse spells like Blood Money, and simulacra, and always if you need to make a ruling on the spell, rule on the side that's worst for the caster.
The only good use for mythic is on the GM's side of the table. Unless you're prepared to totally redo how to run your game.
Oberoni is crying
Keep Mythic Vital Strike but use the common sense interpretation.
Hey Rynjin, I've loosely pre-built a character I plan on building when we finally get around to WotR, and let me tell you Vital Strike has been beasty in my testing. How is it you interpret it? It seems to me you pretty much double everything. Str bonus, damage dice, holy damage and the like.
Keep Mythic Vital Strike but use the common sense interpretation.Hey Rynjin, I've loosely pre-built a character I plan on building when we finally get around to WotR, and let me tell you Vital Strike has been beasty in my testing. How is it you interpret it? It seems to me you pretty much double everything. Str bonus, damage dice, holy damage and the like.
That's how they wrote it.
Are people altering it from the printed texts?
Having seen it in play over many many sessions, it still doesn't compare to what a non-mythic caster can do...
It says "multiply the bonuses by the number of dice". Meaning (if you read by RAW) you multiply bonuses by 4 if using Mythic Vital Strike with a greatsword for example.
It says "multiply the bonuses by the number of dice". Meaning (if you read by RAW) you multiply bonuses by 4 if using Mythic Vital Strike with a greatsword for example.
OH, hadn't noticed that!
No, as written, 2D6 (or 2Dwhatever) weapons would be wildly overpowered.
I am also trying to figure out how Mythic Vital Strike is supposedly broken.
Sure it drastically increases single hit damage... but you're blowing numerous feats [minimum two] and restricted to an attack action to benefit from it.
I used a bloodrager with a warhammer in my testing. When he couldn't charge he'd move up and swing two handed.
I'd use enlarge person,rage out, use power attack for the round and vital strike to do something in the neighborhood of 4d6 for enlarged damage die, +40 strength +4d6 holy. That numbers doubling isn't half bad. He one shot more then a few of his test runs.
Also that second feat isn't "blown" in my opinion as mythic feats are given in addition to normal feats. Vital strike is worthwhile if you can make it mythic as far as I'm concerned.
But like AlexD said, I'd not think it's as crazy as some of the high end stuff a 9th level caster can pull.
It says "multiply the bonuses by the number of dice". Meaning (if you read by RAW) you multiply bonuses by 4 if using Mythic Vital Strike with a greatsword for example.OH, hadn't noticed that!
No, as written, 2D6 (or 2Dwhatever) weapons would be wildly overpowered.
Yes, to say nothing about druid shapeshifting into T-Rex or something worse and using Mythic and Greater Vital Strike.
As written, you multiply the damage bonuses by the number of DICE rolled.
So if you have a Greatsword and all 3 Vital Strike Feats, and a normal damage bonus of 2d6+10 (of course it will be higher, but for simplicity), that becomes 8d6+80 instead of what it was clearly meant to be: 8d6+40.
My Tetori rolls with something like a total of 24d8+750.
Imagine if I rolled that damage bonus 24 times instead of 4.
If you use the common sense interpretation (it's meant to be multiplied by the number of times Vital Strike would normally grant additional dice), it's just really good instead of way TOO good. It's a full attack in one hit (and very, very good with Amazing Initiative), but it's not FOUR full attacks in one hit.
As written, you multiply the damage bonuses by the number of DICE rolled.
So if you have a Greatsword and all 3 Vital Strike Feats, and a normal damage bonus of 2d6+10 (of course it will be higher, but for simplicity), that becomes 8d6+80 instead of what it was clearly meant to be: 8d6+40.
My Tetori rolls with something like a total of 24d8+750.
Imagine if I rolled that damage bonus 24 times instead of 4.
If you use the common sense interpretation (it's meant to be multiplied by the number of times Vital Strike would normally grant additional dice), it's just really good instead of way TOO good. It's a full attack in one hit (and very, very good with Amazing Initiative), but it's not FOUR full attacks in one hit.
Yes, we have played it as a full attack in one hit, not the other crazy crazy thing.
I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm all for Fighters having nice things, but DAAAAAAAMN that could get out of control fast.
It may be "just damage" but at a certain point enough damage to kill ANYTHING in one hit several times over becomes a bit much.
Though thinking on it, the slight increase in utility from being able to bust down any wall, door, or other obstacle is pretty neat.
"How will we get through? Even our siege weapons can't crack this door!"
*Cracks knuckles* "Stand back, I got this."
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......Vital Strike doesn't specify melee.
....I'm totally imagining someone just pulling out a cannon. And then blowing the S!#@ out of whatever it's pointed at with a dullahan casting Death's Calling on their target, Vital Striking the cannon, and of course Named Bullet on the cannonball. Along with a +5 on the cannon.
Then it becomes the "Cannon Of Making Things I Point It At Dead".
Or you could just get a monk of the empty hand with Vital Strike, cast Strong Jaw, Lead Blades and Enlarge Person on him, and let him go to town on everything around.
Strong Jaw and Lead Blades don't stack. Otherwise, yeah, pretty much. You could also go Saurian Shaman druid with a dip into a full BAB class and use Strong Jaw on your tail that starts at 4d6.
For anyone disparaging this idea, just remember that the last time these boards pitted a mythic martial against a non-mythic caster, the caster won (by default).
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They should stack? They're different buffs.
Now, if you wanted to take things literally, I might argue that one could Vital Strike a fire elemental with a barrel of gunpowder and multiply the blast damage by the number of dice... xD
Edit:Oh, I know! You said they wouldn't stack, but a monk's fists are manufactured and natural at the same time. I think you didn't realize that?
They're both effective size increases, so only the larger one (strong jaw) applies.
Just to go back to the guy who made the first reply, as this basically covers all of the bickering that sparked afterwards,
Look from my personal experience first ask yourself if your table is full of friends who are cool with one another having cooler toys, cause giving mythic tiers only to some can breed envy like few things with time.
could you not say the same for a plain martial towards a caster?
Personally I would recommend giving them only 5 tiers as well, however I would still give it to not full casters as follows:
All zero casters get 1 tier at level 1 and another at level 5
All zero casters and 4th casters get a tier at level 9 since that's where wizard SP gets 5th level spells (Full Martial is 3 tiers, 4/9th is 1 tier)
All zero casters and 4/9ths and 6/9ths get 1 tier at level 13 (7th level spells) and Full martials get a final tier at level 17 for 9th level spells (FM 5 tiers, 4/9ths 2 tiers, 6/9ths 1 tier)
I also recommend you keep barbarians qualifying at 6/9ths caster, if not full, as well as following at least most of what Rynjin said.
Just to go back to the guy who made the first reply, as this basically covers all of the bickering that sparked afterwards,
Look from my personal experience first ask yourself if your table is full of friends who are cool with one another having cooler toys, cause giving mythic tiers only to some can breed envy like few things with time.could you not say the same for a plain martial towards a caster?
Personally I would recommend giving them only 5 tiers as well, however I would still give it to not full casters as follows:
All zero casters get 1 tier at level 1 and another at level 5
All zero casters and 4th casters get a tier at level 9 since that's where wizard SP gets 5th level spells (Full Martial is 3 tiers, 4/9th is 1 tier)
All zero casters and 4/9ths and 6/9ths get 1 tier at level 13 (7th level spells) and Full martials get a final tier at level 17 for 9th level spells (FM 5 tiers, 4/9ths 2 tiers, 6/9ths 1 tier)I also recommend you keep barbarians qualifying at 6/9ths caster, if not full, as well as following at least most of what Rynjin said.
Since casters are often considered weaker at the lower levels, wouldn't it be better to give everyone a tier at the lower levels? And then everyone but 6/9 casters a tier at the mid levels (sub 10) and then the non-casters a tier at the post 10 levels, and one or two more in the teens.
This can make everyone feel special early on while increasing martial power, and then the martials continue to grow in power from mythic as they level, while casters grow in power as they typically do.
I like your idea, though.
Just to go back to the guy who made the first reply, as this basically covers all of the bickering that sparked afterwards,
Look from my personal experience first ask yourself if your table is full of friends who are cool with one another having cooler toys, cause giving mythic tiers only to some can breed envy like few things with time.could you not say the same for a plain martial towards a caster?
Personally I would recommend giving them only 5 tiers as well, however I would still give it to not full casters as follows:
All zero casters get 1 tier at level 1 and another at level 5
All zero casters and 4th casters get a tier at level 9 since that's where wizard SP gets 5th level spells (Full Martial is 3 tiers, 4/9th is 1 tier)
All zero casters and 4/9ths and 6/9ths get 1 tier at level 13 (7th level spells) and Full martials get a final tier at level 17 for 9th level spells (FM 5 tiers, 4/9ths 2 tiers, 6/9ths 1 tier)I also recommend you keep barbarians qualifying at 6/9ths caster, if not full, as well as following at least most of what Rynjin said.
Since casters are often considered weaker at the lower levels, wouldn't it be better to give everyone a tier at the lower levels? And then everyone but 6/9 casters a tier at the mid levels (sub 10) and then the non-casters a tier at the post 10 levels, and one or two more in the teens.
This can make everyone feel special early on while increasing martial power, and then the martials continue to grow in power from mythic as they level, while casters grow in power as they typically do.
I like your idea, though.
For this person specifically, I would say no as he is planning on starting at 10 anyway. Since mythic levels become pretty quadratic later as casters normally do, a single mythic tier at level 1 isn't going to push martials significantly far; however, it might still be fair to expand the first level mythic to 4/9ths so the totals go 5,3,1,0 since most 4/9th casters are practically martials with utility casting anyway. I would abstain from giving 6/9ths he extra one at level one for most of the classes and still never give a full caster mythic levels from this.
Just noticed someone had the question for using this in already mythic games: a good solution is to have them stack as, if my memory serves, there is a way to expand it beyond tier 10 written in. It might also work to just have a double tier going so that you could be fighter 17 mythic tier 8 and still have 5 tier five abilities twice (surge becomes +1dX+1dY, amazing initiative becomes doubled from whatever it is in game (referencing Rynjin), Hard to kill becomes triple CON, You have a combined mythic pool from both tiers, Recuperation lets you recover to full HP for 1 hour, Mythic saves lets you roll twice?, and you get the two ability boosts and 3 feats).