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Why does a high ability score not grant bonus level-0 slots?
A witch with 20 INT can prepare 2 additional level 1 spell slots per day, but cannot prepare additional cantrips.
My level 4 witch can now prepare 5 level 1 spells (due to bonus spells) but only 4 cantrips (since they don't get a bonus from high attribute values).
This seems odd.
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Why does a high ability score not grant bonus level-0 slots?
A witch with 20 INT can prepare 2 additional level 1 spell slots per day, but cannot prepare additional cantrips.My level 4 witch can now prepare 5 level 1 spells (due to bonus spells) but only 4 cantrips (since they don't get a bonus from high attribute values).
This seems odd.
Houserule I have seen:
apply bonus for level 1 spells to cantrips/orisons.
WHY? Dunno.
I like the house rule, that's what I'd allow s well, but since I normally play PFS that's not an option :(
But is there an official reason why I don't get bonus cantrips? It seems really odd.
Because there's isn't a line for cantrips on the table? Seriously, though, cantrips aren't a /day thing, so they don't really compare in use to leveled spells.
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Because there's isn't a line for cantrips on the table? Seriously, though, cantrips aren't a /day thing, so they don't really compare in use to leveled spells.
There is a column. That reads "-".
And what cantrips are prepared is a "per day" thing.From a rules perspective, it doesn't make sense. I don't see a way to exploit it. I mean, having two or three more cantrip slots is hardly unbalancing.
And still, I have now more level 1 spells, than cantrips.
at a certain point though you end up with the ability to prepare all available cantrips.
How so?
I have 16 cantrips on my list,Even with an ability of 44 I'd "only" get 5 additional level 1 spells. So I could prepare 9 level 1 spells, and 4 cantrips (or 9 with the house rule).
You'd have to have an extremely high attribute to get to 16 cantrips even with that houserule...
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I think the reasons lie more towards legacy than balance. The way bonus spells are generated, you get one at a stat modifier of +(slot level), so if you extrapolate the table to include 0, you get a bonus cantrip for having a 10 casting stat. But you need a 10 to even cast them, so you might as well just include that in the spell progression, since everyone gets it. I suppose if you want a house rule you should get an additional bonus cantrip at an 18 casting stat, and 26, and so forth.
But honestly I think it was originally thought that you'd stop using them much past level 5 or 6 so why bother giving out bonus ones. Especially now that Pathfinder gives unlimited uses per day, adding a bonus cantrip does increase your versatility much more than it would have in 3.x
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Because there's isn't a line for cantrips on the table? Seriously, though, cantrips aren't a /day thing, so they don't really compare in use to leveled spells.There is a column. That reads "-".
And what cantrips are prepared is a "per day" thing.From a rules perspective, it doesn't make sense. I don't see a way to exploit it. I mean, having two or three more cantrip slots is hardly unbalancing.
And still, I have now more level 1 spells, than cantrips.at a certain point though you end up with the ability to prepare all available cantrips.How so?
I have 16 cantrips on my list,
Even with an ability of 44 I'd "only" get 5 additional level 1 spells. So I could prepare 9 level 1 spells, and 4 cantrips (or 9 with the house rule).You'd have to have an extremely high attribute to get to 16 cantrips even with that houserule...
I'm sorry you are right with how i phrased it and the questions and subject on hand, Our house rule also allows for you to gain additional cantrips as you increase with class level not just stat increase. so by a certain point the players have almost all of them (at least the ones that are most useful) i haven't found that this unbalances things in anyway, the group usually has other means to get the same effect at the desired time, the spells are more used as RP and flavor
Of course this whole discussion is pointless, why would you want anything other than Prestidigitation, Light and Mend anyway?
:D
Of course this whole discussion is pointless, why would you want anything other than Prestidigitation, Light and Mend anyway?
:D
Mixing the lists, Detect Magic, Create Water, Read Magic, Guidance, and (at VERY low levels) Resistance are also useful.
The real reason is because you'd give prepared casters extra infinite use prepared spells and you'd give spontaneous casters extra uses of already infinite use known spells. You could make a weird exception where for cantrips and cantrips only spontaneous casters get extra known spells rather than extra uses, but that's kind of a waste of space and unnecessary complexity for such a minor thing.
Mixing the lists, Detect Magic, Create Water, Read Magic, Guidance, and (at VERY low levels) Resistance are also useful.Of course this whole discussion is pointless, why would you want anything other than Prestidigitation, Light and Mend anyway?
:D
BAH!
I would take magical spices, dry cleaning, clothing repair and light over combat capable stuff any day. :D
Adventure in ballroom gown? Check
Look fabulous ALL THE TIME? Check!
:D
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As ryric said, it's a math/logic thing. The bonus spell table, other than no 0 level spells, can be generated using the formula;
Max(0, 1 + Rounddown([[[Stat - 10] / 2] - Spell Level] / 4, 0)) = Bonus spells per day
With a stat value of 10 and a spell level of 0 this would yield one bonus 0 level spell. Since 10 is also the minimum required to cast 0 level spells, you'd be getting a bonus intended for stat values higher than the minimum, AT the minimum.
My solution has been to just treat 0 level spells as 1/2 level for this formula, as they are in various other places. Then the formula yields no bonus spells for a stat of 10, and one for a stat of 11. Only characters with a stat higher than the minimum gain bonus spells, problem solved.
Technically so long as you don't try to use prestidigitation as a spell that can instalight any flammable object from 30ft away you are still under the power of "spark". Just say you create a small jet of flame from your finger, and light something with it.
You can use a higher level spell slot to prepare additional 0-level spells. Do these still count as unlimited use 0-level spells? That part I'n not sure of.
I think it's good as it is:
1. If there are more than four useful cantrips, you actually have to chose wisely.
2. Likely the wizard is not the only character with level 0 spells, together you can cover more.
3. There are other ways to get cantrips (traits, VMC, racial feats etc.) which would be devalued if the wizard would get them for free.
However, I get that simplicity in mid / late game can be more important for some.
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One of the benefits of playing a Human, their alternate FCB for Sorcerer. For the first three levels, you can use it to get extra cantrips. At fourth level and higher, extra 1st level or higher spells known, as apprpriate.