Martials are inherently more powerful than casters. Period.

[Nigrescence]

They generally have full BAB progression, combat-relevant abilities, often will get bonus combat feats or special ways to use weapons, and other unique things that define them as a class. They dominate the battlefield and are the main power source to ending an encounter. They are the backbone of any adventuring group and are invaluable. For all of their bluster and bluffing, a caster wouldn't be caught dead without some martial support. Or, actually, they would definitely be dead without it.

Additionally, they are generally still extremely effective in an anti-magic field, which needless to say completely nullifies casters. That is seriously powerful.

Additionally, a caster must take the time to cast a spell, which makes them vulnerable, and there is often no guarantee that their spell will have any effect, or will be severely reduced, thereby wasting their turn as well as a limited resource. Whereas a martial can do their thing all day long (though some martial special abilities are indeed a limited resource).

Now, I'm not saying that martials don't need some tweaks. As examples I think things like Vital Strike could be more useful and worth taking in general (like making it compatible with Spring Attack, even if it is a feat tax that says your Vital Strike can be used as the attack when making a Spring Attack), and slings got the shaft, which was only remedied with... TWO... feat taxes to make them begin to be viable. So yes, there is some merit to complaining about the state of martials.

Yes, casters do get more powerful as their levels rise, but so do martials. And most of the truly horrible gnashing of teeth and wailing stuff people complain about happens at only the highest levels, and only begins to be a potential problem around character level eleven... worst case scenario. It's a rise in power up to fifth level spells at which point the casters have a well-developed ability to have some staying power and power to stay on point with the martials. But until then it can be quite rough for casters to keep up. Hell, it's a whole lot of trouble before you get access to third level spells, and it's only at that point that the door to equality is cracked open.

But overall, martials are inherently more powerful, and a decent DM can keep the worst kind of casting abusers from the silly one-combat-per-day twinked out no-regard-for-balance absurdity. If you let a caster expect only one combat or encounter each adventuring day and ensure that they never ever have to deal with anything other than that, you WILL see problems. Sure. But that's when something needs to be changed about how the DM operates, NOT the game itself.

Don't theorycraft all characters at level twenty and then suggest that it reflects the majority of the game for all players and adventure modules, when that couldn't be further from the truth. Most characters, assuming you start from level one, will spend the majority of their play time below level ten, because most characters probably never get much farther than level ten.

So embrace the power that martials have over casters, and the dependence casters have on martials, learn how to recognize and confront improper encounter balance in a DM's planned day, and remember that the most powerful magic of all is friendship.

[Matthew Downie]

Nigrescence wrote:

For all of their bluster and bluffing, a caster wouldn't be caught dead without some martial support. Or, actually, they would definitely be dead without it.

Have you tried? Playing in a group of, say, two druids, a cleric and a wizard? Because from what I've heard, such groups tend to do better than a mixture of martials and casters.

[Imbicatus]

It's a good thing casters can get their martial support via a class features and spells. Too bad martial's can't get caster support from a class feature or feats.

[Anzyr]

Druid, Master Summoner, Shaman, and Sage Razmiran Priest Sorcerer called. They said their better off without a martial in their group.

[Blakmane]

It's time for this thread again?

To be fair, that's the longest bait rant I've read in a while, so kudos there.

More on point: create a 3rd level fighter and I'll create a 3rd level wizard (or witch, if you'd like) and we see who wins, 30ft apart square arena starting in the surprise round.

bonus points for 'it's not a pvp game'... and yet, shouldn't this favour the martial? That poor caster has no support! Easy pickings!

[Saldiven]

Nigrescence wrote:

For all of their bluster and bluffing, a caster wouldn't be caught dead without some martial support. Or, actually, they would definitely be dead without it.

Luckily, multiple casters can bring their own martial support, such as Druid's animal companions, Summoner's eidolon, and Wizard/Sorcerer using Planar Binding.

Nigrescence wrote:

Additionally, they are generally still extremely effective in an anti-magic field, which needless to say completely nullifies casters. That is seriously powerful.

Because anti-magic fields are so very common. And, when they show up, they're so very large. (/sarcasm)

Nigrescence wrote:

Additionally, a caster must take the time to cast a spell, which makes them vulnerable, and there is often no guarantee that their spell will have any effect, or will be severely reduced, thereby wasting their turn as well as a limited resource. Whereas a martial can do their thing all day long (though some martial special abilities are indeed a limited resource).

There's no guarantee a martial will hit. There is no guarantee the martial will avoid miss chance if they do beat the AC. There's no guarantee the martial can overcome the target's damage resistance.

Nigrescence wrote:

Yes, casters do get more powerful as their levels rise, but so do martials.

Martials get more powerful on a linear progression as levels increase. Ninth level casters get more powerful on an exponential progression as levels increase. I'll be happy to provide specific examples, if you'd like, but it really only takes a few minutes of looking at the class abilities and Feats available to martials at medium and high levels, and then comparing that to the spells that casters get at those same levels.

[leo1925]

Blakmane wrote:

To be fair, that's the longest bait rant I've read in a while, so kudos there.

From me also.

[Caedwyr]

leo1925 wrote:

Blakmane wrote:

To be fair, that's the longest bait rant I've read in a while, so kudos there.

From me also.

I am a little disappointed it didn't manage to include the bit about katanas cutting through tanks as an example of martial superiority.

[Kaouse]

Oh god.

I just... oh god.

You know we once had a thread to decide if a Mythic Tier 10 + Level 20 Fighter could hope to match a Level 20 Wizard with NO mythic tiers, and even then it was impossible without getting 9 levels of spellcasting from mythic abilities?

[Insain Dragoon]

*tries and fails to do a Mad Max impression*

Now that? That's bait.

[Anzyr]

Kaouse wrote:

Oh god.

I just... oh god.

You know we once had a thread to decide if a Mythic Tier 10 + Level 20 Fighter could hope to match a Level 20 Wizard with NO mythic tiers, and even then it was impossible without getting 9 levels of spellcasting from mythic abilities?

And despite the caster builds being submitted, the thread solved nothing. (Which has simply reaffirmed my belief that builds prove nothing.)

[Chris Lambertz]

Locking. We really don't need another caster vs. martial debate thread. Also, please revisit the "Baiting" portion of our Community Guidelines. Threads like this one fall into that category.