Armor Check Penalties and Changes in What a Skill is Based On

[Avoron]

There seems to be a somewhat unresolved issue related to this FAQ.

Certain abilities change whether or not a skill is based on Strength or Dexterity, as clarified in the FAQ. Do these abilities also change whether or not an armor check penalty applies to that skill?

Examples of abilities at issue include the Empiricist's Ceaseless Observation ability, the Counterfeit Mage's Wand Adept ability, and the trait Wisdom in the Flesh.

This question has been brought before.
Wisdom in the Flesh and Armor Check Penalty
armor check penalty and x to y
Wisdom Armor Penalty
The problem is that each of these was before the FAQ, and the answers seemed to be based on the assumption that such abilities don't actually change what ability score a skill is considered to be "based on." Now we know for certain that they do.

But the rules in this area are still somewhat contradictory.

Equipment wrote:

Armor Check Penalty: Any armor heavier than leather, as well as any shield, hurts a character's ability to use Dexterity- and Strength-based skills. An armor check penalty applies to all Dexterity- and Strength-based skill checks.

Using Skills wrote:

Armor check penalty applies to all Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks.

Skill Descriptions wrote:

Armor Check Penalty: If this notation is included in the skill name line, an armor check penalty applies (see Equipment) to checks using this skill. If this entry is absent, an armor check penalty does not apply.

So does the armor check penalty change when the relevant ability score changes, or does it stay with certain skills, regardless of changes to the relevant ability score?

[CampinCarl9127]

I would rule yes, but that's purely based off my own personal reasoning. A wise old man climbing a cliff should still be hampered by full plate IMHO. FAQ'd.

[My Self]

For Wisdom in the Flesh, it seems to still be a STR or DEX check. You're allowed to use WIS instead of STR or DEX, but it doesn't seem to change the fact that it is STR or DEX based. Wand Adept and the Empiricist ability are less clear. I'd personally apply the ACP on all skills that are originally STR or DEX. This includes ones that are originally STR or DEX but can be used with INT, WIS, or CHA, but does not include those which are not originally STR or DEX but can be used with STR or DEX.

As for asking for an official ruling, I'll FAQ it.

[Avoron]

Bump for further discussion and FAQ clicks.

Here's the previous FAQ, for ease of reference.

FAQ wrote:

Alternate Ability Score-Based Checks: If I change the key ability score of a skill (or other check), for example, if I change Knowledge from Intelligence to Charisma, is it no-longer an Intelligence-based check? Is it now a Charisma-based check?

Generally yes—at the time of rolling a check, if you substitute the ability score, the check is now based on the new ability score. In the example, at the time of rolling, Knowledge would now be a Charisma-based skill and not an Intelligence-based skill for you, which would affect things like feats, spells, or items that grant bonuses on checks based on their key ability score (like circlet of persuasion). However, if you are adding a second ability modifier to a check, this is not the case. For instance, when adding both Wisdom and Dexterity on initiative checks, initiative is still a Dexterity check, not a Wisdom check. Also, this changes the check only at the time of rolling, so this does not change static class features or options made during character building such as your class’s class skills. Classes that receive “all Intelligence-based skills” as class skills, for instance, are the victim of sloppy writing, and furthermore sometimes effects might muddy the water by only changing the ability dependency sometimes and not others, which is why you check the new dependency only for a specific given roll.

[Avoron]

Bump, because this is still a thing.

[Diego Rossi]

From my point of view the armor check penalty check what is the unmodified skill that you will use, not the modified skill.
The armor check penalty description was made when there wasn't a way to change the skill used to make a check, so it wasn't written keeping that in mind. So you are trying to reconcile the text of rules written when there wasn't that possibility with later changes of the rules. It is fairly difficult, so I go for what I think is the RAI of the rule.

I think that the abilities you cited should have explained if the armor check penalty was applied to the appropriate skills or not, but it would have made the ability description way more verbose, and word count is always a problem.

[thorin001]

The FAQ states quite clearly that the stat that the check is based on changes for the duration of the check. So using Wisdom in the Flesh to make Acrobatics a Wis based skill means that you do not suffer Armor Check Penalties. ACP only applies to Str and Dex based skills.

[Calth]

RAW the acp doesn't apply. RAI, this is similar to why they added "at the time of the roll" due to things like lore warden where they shorthand lists of skills. I lean towards it not applying, but can see the argument.

[Avoron]

This is an interesting issue, because everyone who has posted has had a thought one way or another, but these views have coincided very little.

Personally, I'm inclined to think that it changes depending on the ability score the skill is based on. Mostly because "Str- and Dex- based skills" is a general rule that can be applied consistently, whereas the notation in the skill name line seems to be more of a reminder of something that the rules already say.

But I too have no concrete evidence to support this, and I can easily imagine it going the other way, that certain skills just have the penalties or don't, regardless of changes to what ability score they're based on. So I'd really like others to shed more light on the subject.

[Belladonna DeCastri 12]

My take is that ACP does apply. From my perspective I think it's silly to force rules writers to constantly repeat themselves over and over and explicitly close every loophole.

In the APG there were I think two (?) new class based abilities that allowed you to switch out dex. One was an oracle revelation that swapped in cha... and i'm pretty confident it explicitly stated that ACP applied. So there is precident for a new class to be given a COOL thing and still be limited by ACP. But when additional newer books come out and do effectively the same thing people go "AHA, i get to ignore a fundamental limitation of the game because they didn't reiterate the limitation this time!"

[Chess Pwn]

if the writers somewhere came out and said, ACP applies all the time. Then it does, otherwise everything is a case by case basis.
If the writers/FAQ say that swapping cha for dex for ac still makes armor limit apply to charisma then it's for everthing that does that, but if an ability said, This replaces cha for dex and is still limited by armor then one that didn't have the armor part would be presumed to not be restricted, since we don't have a general rule that max dex when to max cha.

[wraithstrike]

As written, the answer is no unless there is dev commentary I do not know about, but I do think a specific answer would be nice. From a game balance view I think it should apply, but thematically it does not make sense. Armor has no affect on how well I think, if I am using Wisdom in the Flesh.

[Diego Rossi]

wraithstrike wrote:

As written, the answer is no unless there is dev commentary I do not know about, but I do think a specific answer would be nice. From a game balance view I think it should apply, but thematically it does not make sense. Armor has no affect on how well I think, if I am using Wisdom in the Flesh.

But it affect how well you transform that thought into a action.

On the other hand:

FAQ wrote:

Alternate Ability Score-Based Checks: If I change the key ability score of a skill (or other check), for example, if I change Knowledge from Intelligence to Charisma, is it no-longer an Intelligence-based check? Is it now a Charisma-based check?

Generally yes—at the time of rolling a check, if you substitute the ability score, the check is now based on the new ability score. In the example, at the time of rolling, Knowledge would now be a Charisma-based skill and not an Intelligence-based skill for you, èb]which would affect things like feats, spells, or items that grant bonuses on checks based on their key ability score (like circlet of persuasion).[/b] However, if you are adding a second ability modifier to a check, this is not the case. For instance, when adding both Wisdom and Dexterity on initiative checks, initiative is still a Dexterity check, not a Wisdom check. Also, this changes the check only at the time of rolling, so this does not change static class features or options made during character building such as your class’s class skills. Classes that receive “all Intelligence-based skills” as class skills, for instance, are the victim of sloppy writing, and furthermore sometimes effects might muddy the water by only changing the ability dependency sometimes and not others, which is why you check the new dependency only for a specific given roll.
posted Jun 13, 2015

This FAQ speak of bonuses, but I suppose it applies to penalties too, and it explicitly say that items effects change.

Not the reply I like, but almost certainly it mean that the ACP don't applies.

[Avoron]

Belladonna, I think the oracle revelation you're remembering said that your armor's max dex bonus to AC still applied, not its armor check penalty. But you might have been referring to something else.

One thing I have to keep reminding myself is that it works both ways. If Wisdom in the Flesh allows you to avoid an armor check penalty, then Wand Adept forces you to take one.

[Mysterious Stranger]

The section on skills specifically states which skill take armor check penalties. While the section on equipment says that the armor check penalty applies to all dexterity and strength based skills. Since the specific (skill description) overrules the general (equipment) RAW any skill that lists it takes an armor check penalty in the description does so regardless of the stat currently being used. If there were a new skill that did not list it as taking the armor check penalty in the description of the skill it would not.

[Avoron]

The "specific vs. general" test typically applies when the specific rule would be an exception to the general rule. In this case, if we just went by the more specific description for each particular skill, the general rule would never apply and would have no meaning whatsoever. Seeing as both rules were in the core rulebook, that seems a bit unlikely to me. If anything, my instinct would be that the specific designations for individual skills are just reminders of the general rule, because they match up with it exactly. But then again, maybe I shouldn't be trusting my instincts.

[Gauss]

The first rule states that any skill with a certain notation has an ACP.
The second rule states that skills that are STR or DEX based have an ACP.

The second does not state that ONLY skills that are STR or DEX based have an ACP and thus the second does not contradict the first.

What we have is ultimately:
Any skill which is STR or DEX based or has a notation in the text has an ACP.

While a DEX to INT ability does change it so the second no longer applies the first is still in force.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

The problem with that is Armor Check Penalty applying specifically to Strength and Dexterity-based skills.

At best, you can argue that it's Specific Trumps General, but even then, you have the Armor Check Penalty entry for Armors stating that "An armor check penalty applies to all Dexterity- and Strength-based skill checks," and the Using Skills section stating "Armor check penalty applies to all Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks."

I'll also remind you that the table in the actual Skill Description section has a star to indicate that Armor Check Penalty applies to those skills, and those stars are always next to Strength or Dexterity-based skills, and that those rules were written before the idea of things like Wisdom in the Flesh, Empiricist, and so on, meaning the concept of switching how skills were keyed wasn't even a thing (and as such, the rules weren't updated to accommodate).

So, even with the Specific Trumps General argument, the idea that it applies to skills that aren't Dexterity or Strength-based is most likely not what Armor Check Penalties are intended to apply for, since we have multiple instances stating Armor Check Penalties apply to skills keyed to a specific attribute type (Strength or Dexterity).

[Murdock Mudeater]

I've asked this one before. As I recall, it's actually addressed in an FAQ somewhere....

[Avoron]

Gauss, do you believe that a counterfeit mage takes an armor check penalty on their Dex-based Use Magic Device checks?

After all, the contradiction in this case is more explicit:

Equipment wrote:

An armor check penalty applies to all Dexterity- and Strength-based skill checks.

Skill Descriptions wrote:

If this entry is absent, an armor check penalty does not apply.

Murdock, if you could find such an FAQ that would be excellent. I have been unable to find anything written on this topic beyond the June 2015 ability score change FAQ I linked in the OP, and that doesn't address the issue of armor check penalties.

[Gauss]

Avoron,

There are two qualifications here.

1) Any skill marked with the notation for ACP has ACP.
2) Any skill which is Strength or Dexterity based has ACP.

What #2 does not state is that ONLY Strength or Dexterity based skills have ACP.

So, to answer your question, a Counterfeit Mage applies ACP to Use Magic Device because it qualifies under the second rule.

[Avoron]

Actually, there is a third criterion, appearing one sentence after the first.

Skill Descriptions wrote:

Armor Check Penalty: If this notation is included in the skill name line, an armor check penalty applies (see Equipment) to checks using this skill. If this entry is absent, an armor check penalty does not apply.

So under Criterion 2:

an armor check penalty applies to all Dexterity-based skill checks,
and a Counterfeit Mage's Use Magic Device is a Dexterity-based skill check,
so an armor check penalty applies to a Counterfeit Mage's Use Magic Device.

But under Criterion 3:

if the Armor Check Penalty entry is absent an armor check penalty does not apply,
and the Armor Check Penalty entry is absent from a Counterfeit Mage's Use Magic Device,
so an armor check penalty does not apply to a Counterfeit Mage's Use Magic Device.

Hence the contradiction.

[Gauss]

Avoron, I missed that line.

So based on that line, no, the UMD does not have an ACP.