a crooked mesmerist and a sun orchid popsicle shop

[ohako]

I know this has been done to death, but I'm just trying to make sure about the limits of this whole 'concealed magic' thing. Again.

Let's say someone's opened up a shop that sells sun orchid popsicles, and they go for a million gp each. And let's assume that adventurers are going to try to crack that nut with all sorts of whammy powers, and further let's assume that the shopkeeper isn't some sort of vampire plant robot that can shrug off mind-affecting effects, but is trained in Spellcraft. The shop is well-lit.

(Note to self: stat up a ghoran vampire who's got a chip on his shoulder against vegetarians)

An enchanter wizard walks in, and casts a Still, Silent charm person. The shopkeeper notices that magic is being used and instantly triggers the laser chainsaws. Right?

A mesmerist walks in, and begins a whammy with hypnotic eye. The shopkeeper doesn't notice, because, no save, the mesmerist can keep the shopkeeper from noticing her use of that power. She then casts charm person, which because of the psychic magic rules doesn't have any verbal or somatic components to begin with. The shopkeeper finally notices that, and pushes the laser chainsaw button. Right?

A patched-up mesmerist walks in, activates her hypnotic eye, and proceeds to try the implant suggestion part of the new occult skill unlock for Diplomacy. She pulls off the ungodly DC in part because of her Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Persuasive, and Voice of the Sibyl feats. Here you go, have a popsicle! Right?

A demon-blooded tiefling abyssal sorcerer walks by, having taken the following feats: Fiend Sight, Fiend Sight, and Silent Spell. She proceeds to cast deeper darkness and silence on herself outside the shop, then she walks in and casts a Silent charm person. Here's a popsicle for you, wherever you are. Right?

A rakshasa-blooded tiefling rakshasa sorcerer walks in and casts charm person straight off, but quickly passes it off to the shopkeeper as detect fraudulent sun orchids or something. You can't be too careful these days, with all these mountebank adventurers running around. How about a popsicle, then. Right?

A bard with the Spellsong feat shows up. During conversation about the weather and the sun orchid crop, he whips out his bongo drums, and proceeds to attract the attention of Shelyn with a divine Perform (percussion) check. The shopkeeper does not notice that a charm person was also being cast. And here's my last popsicle for you. Right?

a) are there any other ways people can think of to cast a spell covertly in any way?
b) do all of these examples function (or not function) as I have described?

[Imbicatus]

Other than the fact that there is no way anyone would give away a sun orchid even under the effects of charm person, you got most of the ways to conceal casting. Vigilante warlock play test could do it.

Also note that even having a silent,still spell via meta magic or psychic components can still be easily detected by an observer.

[ohako]

Imbicatus wrote:

Other than the fact that there is no way anyone would give away a sun orchid even under the effects of charm person, you got most of the ways to conceal casting. Vigilante warlock play test could do it.

Also note that even having a silent,still spell via meta magic or psychic components can still be easily detected by an observer.

I was not alleging differently. Apparently you have to dull the senses of the observer, rather than obfuscate the behaviors of the actor.

It strikes me as odd that the signature ability of the mesmerist (that hairy eyeball) is genuinely undetectable, but to get useful covert non-combat benefit out of it, you need the services of a talented accordionist instead.

[Joesi]

Imbicatus wrote:

note that even having a silent,still spell via meta magic or psychic components can still be easily detected by an observer.

Regarding silent still spells, what is it that creatures notice? something visual? So anything that doesn't have normal vision (Pathfinder rarely ever seems to mention whether or not any creature actually has normal vision or not) wouldn't be able to notice the spellcasting, perhaps? Would it require any sort of perception check?

Or is it some sort of magic sense? If so, how would one obtain it? 1 point in spellcraft?

Regarding the scenario the OP posted, does the shopkeeper somehow have some sort of readied action up all the time while doing his regular actions as well? I don't understand that part. Maybe some sort of Contingency spell in place? If the contingency was in place, I don't see how his perception would be necessary at all though.

[I'm Hiding In Your Closet]

At least you did a nice job demonstrating that no, Wizards aren't unfairly superior to everyone else like the narrowmind-hivemind keeps saying they are!

[LazarX]

Every week or so someone puts up a thread just like this...

And they all forget that the Still and Silent Metamagic feats have NO RAW text that says they affect in any way the ability to perceive and identify spellcasting.

[Xethik]

LazarX wrote:

Every week or so someone puts up a thread just like this...

And they all forget that the Still and Silent Metamagic feats have NO RAW text that says they affect in any way the ability to perceive and identify spellcasting.

I... you sho...

*sigh*

Did you read the OP?

[Aldrius]

It's honestly more likely that the shop is not run by a single shopkeeper, but a series of intermediaries with passcodes, stipulations, etc. Nothing that valuable would be sold in public to begin with.

There's probably an alarm spell in place to trigger when unauthorized spells such as charm person or invisibility take effect, followed by golems.

Or maybe there's a guard with goggles of truesight keeping watch, and when he spots you he pushes a button. Followed by golems.

Or the person in question could be a mesmerist or other extremely strong-willed individual who's unlikely to fail his save, and when they do, your charm person flubs even if you did it all hidden-like. It might stop other people from noticing you cast the spell, but the person will still have had to fight off your influence and when they do they press the button, followed by golems.

This scenario requires a lot more complex security loops. Let's see the mesmerist overcome:

1) a first layer of security in the form of guards looking for material components and magical aptitude, with analyze dweomer, truesight, zone of truthtelling, and read thoughts.

2) The place is coated in alarm spells, and when one of these is triggered, up to five iron golems are summoned, not to mention the considerable power that the staff on duty no doubt have. The area also has sensors with truesight on them.

3) Every member of the 'shop' has identification in some way, shape, or form that cannot be trumped using polymorph or alter shape, so masquerading as one without actually possessing their bodies is useless. They also have, once per day, break enchantment cast on them in the event they were charmed when outside the shop.

4) The front is just one of many different people running the store. When the request of purchase is made, documents showing your identity, status, and/or wealth must be presented. An item worth at least 20,000gp must be handed over as collateral when the transaction is taking place (the item is returned at the conclusion of the transaction). Authorization of three different employees, two of whom never even set eyes on the buyer.

5) The actual purchase wouldn't result in getting one. It would buy you the right to bid on one. I'd say the going rate would be 50,000-100,000gp for an auction ticket. These tickets are each different from each other in slight details and each are closely documented for when the auction actually happens, meaning forgery is next to impossible. After they are purchased, though, it is of course up to the person in question to keep it safe, but they can tell the shop they want to cancel the last one and get another one... for another 25,000-50,000gp price, of course.

6) The items on display aren't actually sun orchid popsicle but the store makes good on informing that. The actual sun orchid popsicles are kept somewhere else even more impenetrable than the shop. The tickets are kept in a small adamantium safe of which the combination changes every day. Payment is rendered before the safe is even opened. You are also given a bill of sale that you must show the grunts outside to keep them from beating you into a pulp.

So, let's see someone get through all of that without wrecking the whole place a new dimension.

[Guru-Meditation]

Have the Job be on a Demiplane.
Have the entrance area where potential customers are be unter a constant Antimagic-Field. With physical obstacles to move deeper into the Shop, like Adamantine Bars and reinforced see-through crystal "windows". Talking through a short spirally shaft, throug which sound can travel, but doesnt give Line-of-Effect.

[ryric]

I agree with the posters that "popsicle stand with laser chainsaws" doesn't even begin to cover the security an operation like this would have. An unskilled laborer makes 1 sp a day, so ~30 gp a year. Comparing that to real-world minimum wage we get something like: 1 million gp is about equal to 500 million dollars. If your shop is selling items that run half a billion dollars each, there will be multiple levels of security and being the owner's best friend probably isn't getting you a free one. Most of the guys in your examples probably wouldn't even be allowed to know the store existed. (With 1 million gp per sale, I can easily afford to use divination to find out the names and locations of every person who knows of the existence of my shop, and then use memory modification or just assassination to remove the undesirables.)

[Wolfsnap]

I don't think the OP is interested in security measures so much as clarifying the different ways to conceal enchantments?

[ohako]

so, to recap

1. some people are waving around the 'you can't covertly cast with metamagic' stick at me. I know this, even if it doesn't seem to make a ton of sense. This is the same as arguing that acid splash should work with the Underhanded rogue talent.

2. Other posters are trying to make my theoretical popsicle shop into some of impenetrable fortress made of 'noyoucantium'. What's the fun of designing a vault no one can break into?

3. Imbicatus says the playtest vigilante (warlock style) can cast covertly.

K. Anyone else want to try answering my original questions? (are my examples wrong, and are there any I'm missing?)

[Lessah]

A bard with the Sandman Archetype can also cast covertly, basically emulating the Spellsong feat but Sleight of Hand check vs Perception instead.

Dramatic Subtext (Su):

At 9th level, a sandman can use bardic performance to cast spells without obvious visual or audible components while retaining the spell’s normal effects. Observers must succeed at a Perception check opposed by a sandman’s Sleight of Hand check to notice that the sandman is the source of the spellcasting (though spellcasting still provokes attacks of opportunity). The bard must use this performance for at least 2 rounds before casting a spell; otherwise he is automatically detected and the performance ends.

Edit: Additionally, there are some other classes that can qualify for Spellsong simply because Bardic Performance gets sprinkled around on some PrCs and Archetypes, most notably perhaps the Variant Multiclass version of the bard.

[Joesi]

Joesi wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

note that even having a silent,still spell via meta magic or psychic components can still be easily detected by an observer.

Regarding silent still spells, what is it that creatures notice? something visual? So anything that doesn't have normal vision (Pathfinder rarely ever seems to mention whether or not any creature actually has normal vision or not) wouldn't be able to notice the spellcasting, perhaps? Would it require any sort of perception check?

Or is it some sort of magic sense? If so, how would one obtain it? 1 point in spellcraft?

Regarding the scenario the OP posted, does the shopkeeper somehow have some sort of readied action up all the time while doing his regular actions as well? I don't understand that part. Maybe some sort of Contingency spell in place? If the contingency was in place, I don't see how his perception would be necessary at all though.

I don't know if anyone just didn't see my post, or else didn't know the answer, so I'll bump it in hopes of getting an answer.

[QuidEst]

A Shaman* devoted to Sarenrae and to healing the schisms in her church takes five levels of Shaman and two levels of Dawnflower Dissident, walks in and makes a Sleight of Hand and Bluff check, each with a -10 penalty. The shopkeeper flubs the opposed checks. Have a popsicle!

*Shaman is the only divine class to get Charm Person on its list directly; the general principle works with any divine class with access to Daylight as a spell.

[QuidEst]

An Alchemist prepares an Elixir of Love, and stores it with Touch Injection well in advance. Upon arriving, in the shop, he politely shakes the shopkeeper's hand, delivering the elixir. Assuming shopkeeper proceeds to fail the DC 14 saving throw- have a popsicle!

[ohako]

QuidEst wrote:

A Shaman* devoted to Sarenrae and to healing the schisms in her church takes five levels of Shaman and two levels of Dawnflower Dissident, walks in and makes a Sleight of Hand and Bluff check, each with a -10 penalty. The shopkeeper flubs the opposed checks. Have a popsicle!

*Shaman is the only divine class to get Charm Person on its list directly; the general principle works with any divine class with access to Daylight as a spell.

Hey QuidEst, this is perfect! Thanks for posting this one. That power raises some pretty hairy questions, so I posted them in a new thread, here.

Joesi, you may find answers to your question (what is it that's noticeable and why) in the posts I've quoted in the thread I just linked to (...if that makes any sense...O.o)

[ohako]

For completeness sake, I'll also note that the feats Cunning Caster and Subtle Devices from Heroes of the Streets can give a caster a skill check to pass in order to cast covertly.

Sadly, those feats aren't currently PFS-legal, whereas the others are

the list for covert casting any spell (not just elixir of love), as it stands today

a) the rakshasa bloodline (for sorcerers)
b) the sandman archetype (for bards)
c) the Spellsong feat (for non-sandman bards)
d) the Secret Signs feat (for deaf oracles)
e) the Dawnflower Dissident prestige class (for, wow, separatist clerics of Sarenrae with the Charm domain or juju oracles who worship Sarenrae)
f) the feats Secret Caster and Subtle Devices (for practically anybody)

[Azothath]

an abjurationist walks in and sez, "hey, you have million gold piece sun orchid elixirs! let me set up a permanent anti-magic field in your shop and it'll cut out the magic shenanigans! It'll only cost you one popsicle!" deal done. problem solved.