Reviewing the rules of take 10 (which for some reason the players in my group doesn't use often), I realized that whether or not I would take 10 on something depends on the DC of the check.
Ironically, if I am not distracted or threatened, with a +4 knowledge bonus, I will automatically fail a DC15 check if I decide to take 10. If I am distracted or threatened, I am not allowed to take 10, and thus I always have a 45% (9/20) chance of making the check.
Let's say I don't know the DC, and the chance of me taking 10 in all given situations in which I am allowed rounds out to about 50-50, because I don't want to be a chump and fail to know what is supposed to be basic knowledge, but I don't want to miss out on chances to know something more obscure, either. The one side is a 100% failure. The other side is a 45% chance at success. In total I have 22.5% chance of success when I'm not distracted or threatened.
Thus, I am more likely to know something if I am distracted or threatened, than if I am not. Rolling seems to represent both half-assing your attempt to remember your knowledge and making an effort, even though you'd think you'd do a better job when taking 10 because your mind wasn't elsewhere.
What the heck?
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Taking 10 is for when you know the task is easy relative to your skill level - if you suspect the DC is 15, don't take 10 with a +4. We can easily flip your example around by giving you a +5 skill bonus...now you succeed 100% of the time taking 10, and 55% of the time when rolling.
One artifact of most DCs being multiples of 5 is that taking 10 gets better as your skill reaches multiples of 5.
Generally I only take 10 with "low" skills (<+5) if I think the DC is 5 or 10, or if the skill will allow retries. Conversely, once I have something in the +10-15 range, I take 10 all the time. DC20-25 covers a lot of rolls.
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Yeah, Anius you're just not thinking of it in a broad enough spectrum.
If your total skill modifier is low, you probably don't want to take 10 with it. But think of it this way, why is your knowledge check only a +4 and the DC 15?
You do know at level 1 you can put in one skill point, +3 for class skill, and probably an intelligence modifier. Most people are going to have a +5 at level 1 if it's really something their character is intended to do well. And that will allow you to identify up to a CR 5 creature. A CR 5 creature also happens to be one that will probably kill your entire party if you're all level 1.
And, if your character doesn't have that knowledge as a class skill, and doesn't have an int modifier, then you really aren't intended (nor have you builtyour character ) to succeed on that check.
Yeah, Anius you're just not thinking of it in a broad enough spectrum.
If your total skill modifier is low, you probably don't want to take 10 with it. But think of it this way, why is your knowledge check only a +4 and the DC 15?
You do know at level 1 you can put in one skill point, +3 for class skill, and probably an intelligence modifier. Most people are going to have a +5 at level 1 if it's really something their character is intended to do well. And that will allow you to identify up to a CR 5 creature. A CR 5 creature also happens to be one that will probably kill your entire party if you're all level 1.
And, if your character doesn't have that knowledge as a class skill, and doesn't have an int modifier, then you really aren't intended (nor have you builtyour character ) to succeed on that check.
Well, the +4 knowledge modifier was hypothetical. This isn't about an actual character.
What I did was I picked the DC that isn't really intended to be challenging (for example a Local 15 is knowing a common rumor and a Religion 15 is know common mythology and tenets), and then chose the modifier that was just below to think about the odds.
It didn't occur to me to consider ryric's mention of what happens when the bonus is +5, which makes things look quite different because everything becomes flipped around. Before I had 0% vs 45%. Add one and I get 100% vs 55%. Which feels like a sudden jump, but at least the fact that taking 10 gets better the higher your skill bonus is makes sense.
And now, the question seems to become the responsibility of the GM to properly describe a DC so that the player can make an informed decision as to whether or not to take 10 (which given that some of the DC15 knowledge examples are on the brink of being common knowledge might be tricky), or even consider whether or not DC even needs to be secret in this case.
EDIT: Actually, this thread was originally going to be about gm practices with regard to transparency or secrecy about DC, then about giving or withholding statistical information (such as HP and AC) in general, but then I decided it was too broad and decided to narrow it down to this one contemplation.
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What I did was I picked the DC that isn't really intended to be challenging (for example a Local 15 is knowing a common rumor and a Religion 15 is know common mythology and tenets), and then chose the modifier that was just below to think about the odds.
Knowing what rumors are going around in a town you've never been to, and being able to list and number the Acts of Iomedae, "aren't really intended to be challenging"?
My general rule of thumb is that if taking ten would do it, I don't force you to make the roll - I just let you succeed and move on,
I like this rule of thumb. Helps move things along quicker.
What I did was I picked the DC that isn't really intended to be challenging (for example a Local 15 is knowing a common rumor and a Religion 15 is know common mythology and tenets), and then chose the modifier that was just below to think about the odds.Knowing what rumors are going around in a town you've never been to, and being able to list and number the Acts of Iomedae, "aren't really intended to be challenging"?
Well that's part of what makes the knowledge local skill kind of odd in my opinion. I can be from Hartford and particularly well studied in the gossips, rumors and local legends (nor do I even have to be to know common rumors in my community), but none of that experience tells me anything about the talk of the town in Seoul.
On the other hand, I am not trained at all in Christian theology, but I can remember some Christian myths and some of the commandments. If I saw iconography of Jesus holding bread and fish I would undoubtedly recognize the story it's based on. In that case maybe we have a different definition of the word 'common'.
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Well that's part of what makes the knowledge local skill kind of odd in my opinion. I can be from Hartford and particularly well studied in the gossips, rumors and local legends (nor do I even have to be to know common rumors in my community), but none of that experience tells me anything about the talk of the town in Seoul.
Maybe Kn(local) is like Reddit or something? Yeah, you're not the only one who finds it odd. :/
On the other hand, I am not trained at all in Christian theology, but I can remember some Christian myths and some of the commandments. If I saw iconography of Jesus holding bread and fish I would undoubtedly recognize the story it's based on. In that case maybe we have a different definition of the word 'common'.
It's DC 10 to be able to recognize holy symbols and clergy (which, remember, requires that you have some concept of that religion's nature/existence in the first place).
As for knowing some of the myths, you say you "remember" some of them; buuuuut can you actually recite those stories, accurate to the source material (in this example, the Bible)? Or do you just kinda remember "there was this one story where he fed a lot of people with bread and fish"? I'm of the opinion that a successful Knowledge check means actual, accurate, real, solid knowledge of the thing in question, not just kinda recognizing it. If you do really know the stories, then I bet you at least went to Sunday School as a kid or something, in which case you totally have at least one rank.
Or maybe Pathfinder's Knowledge skills are just borked beyond hope. ;)
Well that's part of what makes the knowledge local skill kind of odd in my opinion. I can be from Hartford and particularly well studied in the gossips, rumors and local legends (nor do I even have to be to know common rumors in my community), but none of that experience tells me anything about the talk of the town in Seoul.Maybe Kn(local) is like Reddit or something? Yeah, you're not the only one who finds it odd. :/
On the other hand, I am not trained at all in Christian theology, but I can remember some Christian myths and some of the commandments. If I saw iconography of Jesus holding bread and fish I would undoubtedly recognize the story it's based on. In that case maybe we have a different definition of the word 'common'.It's DC 10 to be able to recognize holy symbols and clergy (which, remember, requires that you have some concept of that religion's nature/existence in the first place).
As for knowing some of the myths, you say you "remember" some of them; buuuuut can you actually recite those stories, accurate to the source material (in this example, the Bible)? Or do you just kinda remember "there was this one story where he fed a lot of people with bread and fish"? I'm of the opinion that a successful Knowledge check means actual, accurate, real, solid knowledge of the thing in question, not just kinda recognizing it. If you do really know the stories, then I bet you at least went to Sunday School as a kid or something, in which case you totally have at least one rank.
Or maybe Pathfinder's Knowledge skills are just borked beyond hope. ;)
hehehehe
Anyway I interpreted "recognize holy symbols and clergy" to be like "yep that's a crucifix, that them thar's Jesus on the cross and it's a symbol of Christianity". So like super basic info if you know the religion exists.
And ah, I see what you mean. I sort of interpreted it as 'if you roll really high then you know a wealth of info' but looking, it doesn't seem to actually be encoded in the rules as written and I may have just gotten the idea from knowledge DC tables in modules.
(Also lol I did actually go to sunday school but I didn't pay attention at all due to not caring and never cultivated that body of knowledge. I was all set up to be a pagan even back then ;) )
So anyway I sort of interpreted 'successful knowledge' as being able to effectively summarize the story of the bread and the fish; getting the core idea across that Jesus had to feed hundreds of people with only 5 loaves of bread and two fish, and by blessing the food he was able to not only feed the entire crowd but had several baskets of waste left over. (Yeah I think that's basically what I remember off the top of my head)
While on the other hand a successful DC 20 would be able to know there are Apostolic and Nicene Creeds, know the key differences between the two, and explain the background behind the codification of those creeds including why they are different. (By the way I don't know this at all, though I think I read about it once and forgot it all)
Anyway, to deal with the knowledge specialization weirdery, I had the idea, although not codified in RAW, that circumstance bonuses can be applied to areas of knowledge with personal experience, for example a +5 bonus to Knowledge Local about the town you grew up in (including untrained people being able to make DC 15 checks about their hometown), while ranks in knowledge local represents training as some sort of folklorist. (though that field of study apparently including who is sleeping with whom in wherever town still seems quite odd)
Likewise, maybe a +5 bonus to knowledge of a religion you have practiced all your life, stuff like that.
I'm also tossing around the idea of an experimental option to, when gaining a rank, instead of adding +1 to the bonus, add +2 to a circumstance bonus for making knowledge checks for a particular specialization (for example, a specific religion in knowledge religion, or a region in knowledge local), representing concentrated study in that particular part of the field.
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I think I'll just stick with "Pathfinder's Knowledge skill system is borked". ;)
But just for fun:
getting the core idea across that Jesus had to feed hundreds of people with only 5 loaves of bread and two fish, and by blessing the food he was able to not only feed the entire crowd but had several baskets of waste left over.
Well, you're close: it was thousands, not hundreds, and in fact the source material includes more than one instance of him using one lunch to feed thousands of people and get a few baskets of leftovers. So what DC do you suppose you hit? Maybe 13? ;)
I think I'll just stick with "Pathfinder's Knowledge skill system is borked". ;)
But just for fun:
getting the core idea across that Jesus had to feed hundreds of people with only 5 loaves of bread and two fish, and by blessing the food he was able to not only feed the entire crowd but had several baskets of waste left over.Well, you're close: it was thousands, not hundreds, and in fact the source material includes more than one instance of him using one lunch to feed thousands of people and get a few baskets of leftovers. So what DC do you suppose you hit? Maybe 13? ;)
huh, I didn't know it was multiple times. I always thought it was the one story.
Another houserule idea I had was modifying the no-retry rule to allow for a retry if you fail by less than five. If you fail by five or more, you definitely don't know and can't try again. If you fail by less than five, you can try again to remember after an hour.
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Take 10 is for easy, routine stuff. And thus important for internal world consistency.
Without it a good portion of all roofers wouldnt survive the summer, from all that "dangerous" ladder climbing, a good portion of all restaurant meals would be burned trash, etc...
Take 10 is for easy, routine stuff. And thus important for internal world consistency.
Without it a good portion of all roofers wouldnt survive the summer, from all that "dangerous" ladder climbing, a good portion of all restaurant meals would be burned trash, etc...
seems pretty realistic to me.
After all, about 1/20 of the artwork I produce feels like rubbish. :Þ
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And now, the question seems to become the responsibility of the GM to properly describe a DC so that the player can make an informed decision as to whether or not to take 10 (which given that some of the DC15 knowledge examples are on the brink of being common knowledge might be tricky), or even consider whether or not DC even needs to be secret in this case.EDIT: Actually, this thread was originally going to be about gm...
Actually, I would say the GM has a responsibility not to tell you the DC of a task. Take 10 is supposed to leave room for failure. If you tell players the DC of something they no longer need to worry about whether their skill + 10 is enough or not. They either know they pass or know they need to roll. That's too easy in my opinion.
However, many tasks should have discernible not variable DCs. Like acrobatics to jump across a pit. A PC (being able to see the pit) should know pretty well if their average attempt would enable to them to successfully traverse it. However, when using acrobatics to avoid an attack of opportunity you have no idea what the CMD of the enemy is, and should have no idea if your take 10 would allow you to succeed (though you could probably guess that it's unlikely to unless you pumped it up a lot.*
*And lets also ignore that you can't actually take 10 in combat, this was just the first example that came to mind.
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Actually, I would say the GM has a responsibility not to tell you the DC of a task. Take 10 is supposed to leave room for failure. If you tell players the DC of something they no longer need to worry about whether their skill + 10 is enough or not. They either know they pass or know they need to roll. That's too easy in my opinion.
However, many tasks should have discernible not variable DCs. Like acrobatics to jump across a pit. A PC (being able to see the pit) should know pretty well if their average attempt would enable to them to successfully traverse it. However, when using acrobatics to avoid an attack of opportunity you have no idea what the CMD of the enemy is, and should have no idea if your take 10 would allow you to succeed (though you could probably guess that it's unlikely to unless you pumped it up a lot.*
*And lets also ignore that you can't actually take 10 in combat, this was just the first example that came to mind.
On the other hand, I think a GM should at least let the players know the ballpark of the DC. For example, if the enemy is a fighting type and you are a fighting type you should have a rough idea if he's any good from the way he holds himself, etc. You should probably be able to tell a level 2 warrior from a level 12 fighter.
If a player asks, I'll let him know if they have a good feeling or a bad feeling about their odds.
After all, the GM is the conduit for all of the information about the world.
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Knowing your party's take 10 numbers for various skills is a great tool for a DM to set the DC's for a skill check or encounter. The take 10 number is that "just under 50%" mark for a DC. It is also a good way to waive a roll entirely when there is no reasonable way a trained person should fail a check (or when you didn't intend for a specific minor dice roll to derail an entire adventure): "If you are trained in knowledge, local, then you have heard of this guy" is the same as saying "The DC on the knowledge local check to recognize his name is under your take 10 for the skill so we don't have to wait while you pull out your phone, boot up your dice rolling app, then spend 30 seconds staring at the screen and doing math in your head before telling me the result."
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I think another part where you'd be risking some things on taking 10 vs rolling would be crafting stuff, especially on the mundane things (because of course every party makes their own gear and never goes to shops, right?).
Being psychotic, I wanted my character to make her own weapons rather than just buy off the shelf. So when masterwork time rolled around? It ... well, rolled around. But as her skill mods were +2 from ranks, +2 from tools, +1 from Int, and +3 from class, and the weapon is martial ... yeah, time to die. (Or at least roll a die.) Fortunately I haven't missed a roll yet. Unfortunately we haven't had any downtime in a while. So the special axe is still a bunch of axe pieces.
But once the skill mod is high enough, then you'd face whether you wanted to speed up or not.
But there's no risk to Taking 10 there right? You calculate the DC, you know whether Take 10 will work or not. If it won't, you have to roll.I think another part where you'd be risking some things on taking 10 vs rolling would be crafting stuff, especially on the mundane things (because of course every party makes their own gear and never goes to shops, right?).
Being psychotic, I wanted my character to make her own weapons rather than just buy off the shelf. So when masterwork time rolled around? It ... well, rolled around. But as her skill mods were +2 from ranks, +2 from tools, +1 from Int, and +3 from class, and the weapon is martial ... yeah, time to die. (Or at least roll a die.) Fortunately I haven't missed a roll yet. Unfortunately we haven't had any downtime in a while. So the special axe is still a bunch of axe pieces.
But once the skill mod is high enough, then you'd face whether you wanted to speed up or not.
The risk and reward come when you can take 10 and succeed ... and you have to decide whether you want to risk blowing the roll in exchange for a chance for going faster.
This is, sadly, not really an example that shows up in most games; I think it appears more often in game art than actual dice hitting tables.
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ROLL! The polyhedral gods demand the tribute of your joy and tears!
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Knowing your party's take 10 numbers for various skills is a great tool for a DM to set the DC's for a skill check or encounter. The take 10 number is that "just under 50%" mark for a DC. It is also a good way to waive a roll entirely when there is no reasonable way a trained person should fail a check (or when you didn't intend for a specific minor dice roll to derail an entire adventure): "If you are trained in knowledge, local, then you have heard of this guy" is the same as saying "The DC on the knowledge local check to recognize his name is under your take 10 for the skill so we don't have to wait while you pull out your phone, boot up your dice rolling app, then spend 30 seconds staring at the screen and doing math in your head before telling me the result."
I agree that knowing a PC's take 10 results can be helpful because it does allow a GM to waive rolling lots of situations. But I wouldn't use it to set the DC itself, at least not very often. I'm in the camp that DCs are what they are and should be set independently of the specifics of the PCs as much as possible.
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It it isn't just a matter of challenging the character, there is also realizing when something isn't a challenge and then not wasting time having them roll. Do quantum physicists have to roll mental dice to recognize the formula E = mc2? (how do I get a superscript on this board?). Do students of American history roll to see if they have heard of George Washington? If you are trained in a mental skill then there is probably a body of knowledge that is basic to that skill and you just know it all. If someone has a 95% chance to make the skill roll that does not mean there are 5% holes in his grasp of the most basic concepts related to that skill (which is what happens if you make him roll for everything -- eventually he will blow the roll on something he can't reasonably not know. It is funny when that happens, but not particularly plausible.
I don't do gimmes as often with physical skills, but if the party has to cross 10 feet of still water, and one has ranked Swim to the point where he is basically Michael Phelps, I don't ask for a roll. I don't say: "Your take 10 would make it" (especially when his take 2 would make it) I say: "You swim across. The rest of you (who don't have a single rank) roll."
That's not the intent, as I understand it.
Take 10 isn't supposed to be a minimum. It's not supposed to be the better of Take 10 and a roll. You get your choice and stick with it.
Reactive Perception checks, for example. You don't automatically get a 10 and then roll if that doesn't make it. You can't retry Knowledge checks anyway, so it doesn't make sense to Take 10 then automatically roll if it fails.In some cases, without time pressure, when you can try again, you could Take 10 and then roll if that doesn't work.
Like I said, "Taking Ten" is half-assing it, if you cannot do that, you fail the check. However this should not be indicative of what you know, so it really shouldn't prevent you from trying an actual knowledge check afterward.
I can see why you would think they are mutually exclusive, but I would point out that "taking ten" and thinking about something for ten minutes actually should not work with knowledge checks under the way they are written, as if you failed the first check you cannot actually make another.
I think you're thinking of taking 20, which represents trying until you get a natural 20. you can't do that with skills you can't retry, and you need extra time to do it.
taking 10 is just the option to take the average roll when you're not threatened or distracted. it doesn't involve failures and it doesn't involve extra time.