Polymorph Any Object: What kinds of target forms can the caster choose?

[Axoren]

There's an argument going on within my group between players as to what the following sentence means:

"This spell functions like greater polymorph, except that it changes one object or creature into another."

There's two ways it can be interpreted:

1. "This spell functions like greater polymorph, except that it changes one object or creature into any other object or creature."

2. "This spell functions like greater polymorph, but it also targets objects and can turn targets into creatures or objects."

Which of these is the correct interpretation?

[Claxon]

Number two is correct, otherwise the following sentence from the spell would be nonsense:

Quote:

you aren't limited to transforming a living creature into another living form

Not being limited to another living creature means turning them into objects must be an option.

Also, this is an example from the spell:

Quote:

4 3 hours Human to marionette

A human being transformed into a marionette has a duration factor of 4, meaning the transformation lasts 3 hours. If you can't transform a creature into an object the example is meaningless. Similarly, the line above it states a marionette transformed into a human lasts 1 hour. It would also be a meaningless example if the correct answer were number 1.

How could anyone interpret it to be anything but number 2? There are examples listed with the spell about what it can do that clearly indicate object to creature and creature to object transformations are possible. You can literally transform anything into anything, the only difference is that depending on how much changes it will change how long the spell lasts.

[Axoren]

Claxon wrote:

Number two is correct, otherwise the following sentence from the spell would be nonsense:

Quote:

you aren't limited to transforming a living creature into another living form

Not being limited to another living creature means turning them into objects must be an option.

The second option causes the following to be true:

Turning an Aberration into a Figurine is possible.
Turning a Figurine into an Aberration is impossible.

The first option causes the following to be true:

Turning an Aberration into a Figurine is possible.
Turning a Figurine into an Aberration is possible.

Reread option #1. It's a superset of all effects that option #2 has. Option #2 is more restrictive language. Option #1 takes it to mean ANY future form.

[Claxon]

Axoren wrote:

Claxon wrote:

Number two is correct, otherwise the following sentence from the spell would be nonsense:

Quote:

you aren't limited to transforming a living creature into another living form

Not being limited to another living creature means turning them into objects must be an option.

The second option causes the following to be true:

Turning an Aberration into a Figurine is possible.
Turning a Figurine into an Aberration is impossible.

The first option causes the following to be true:

Turning an Aberration into a Figurine is possible.
Turning a Figurine into an Aberration is possible.

Reread option #1. It's a superset of all effects that option #2 has. Option #2 is more restrictive language. Option #1 takes it to mean ANY future form.

Your wording is very difficult to understand. I suggest not using it.

The answer is as I said in my expanded post, you can turn anything into anything. The only difference is how long the transformation lasts.

Also, the way I read your number 1 is that you are saying you can turn a creature into any creature or an object into any object, but couldn't turn a creature into an object.

[Axoren]

Could I get an additional take on this? Effectively: Does this let you turn anything into anything?

Also an additional question:

If a creature is turned into a Figurine, does it keep its stats? Turning a 63 STR Synth Summoner into a toy should not make a 63 STR toy, right?

[ryric]

I second that PAO can turn anything into anything...that's pretty much the point.

Objects don't really have ability scores. The toy would be inanimate so it wouldn't have a 63 Str, or any Str really.

The spell is open-ended enough that there are a lot of oddball niche cases you can come up with. In the hands of a creative player it can result in a lot of on-the-spot GM calls.

[Ian Bell]

What do you mean by a "Figurine"? You're capitalizing it, so I assume you mean something other than a statue or toy or whatever.

[Axoren]

Ian Bell wrote:

What do you mean by a "Figurine"? You're capitalizing it, so I assume you mean something other than a statue or toy or whatever.

Just a toy. A bad habit of capitalizing nouns when they're not proper noun, my apologies.

[Ian Bell]

Gotcha. I wanted to make sure you weren't trying to create temporary Figurines of Wondrous Power out of random creatures or something. (Though that sounds like a cool plot hook.)

[Trimalchio]

Polymorph spells took a pretty drastic debuff under Pathfinder but PAO wasn't really changed exactly so it requires lots of adjudication.

For example, if you polymorph a human into a lich, do you use undead anatomy to decide which abilities it gains and loses? How about a human into an outsider, say a protean or a daemon?

Strictly as written PAO a human into a dwarf you just gave them +2 strength and darkvision permanently, not bad but seems somewhat strange, having a level 8 spell reduce into a level 2 effect.

There's then the "or one non-magical object of up to 100 cu. ft./level" target, I'm not aware of any strict definitions of 'object', is a continuous stone wall considered an object, how about a hill, a ship, the empty air or a cloud? filling hundres of cubic feet of tunnel into lava will ruin most people's day, or say turning someone's galley or cottage into blightburn mineral or russet mold (unless the DM begins ruling it as 'valuable' then it just becomes a game of mother may I).

Generally the PAO conversation should happen well before the spell is ever used, so everyone is on the same page on it's uses and effects.

[Claxon]

Axoren wrote:

Could I get an additional take on this? Effectively: Does this let you turn anything into anything?

Also an additional question:

If a creature is turned into a Figurine, does it keep its stats? Turning a 63 STR Synth Summoner into a toy should not make a 63 STR toy, right?

Turning a creature into a figurine (a small statue) would mean the creature is now an object, not a creature. It would have no physical or mental stats for the duration of the spell. No strength, no con, no dex, int, wis, or cha.

Failing a save against Polymorph Any Object is usually a death sentence.

[Shiroi]

Can you PAO things with a permanent duration multiple times?
Pebble to tiny statue of a person.
Tiny statue to a large clockwork.
Clockwork to a real person.
Real person to x.
Would this make a legal way to permanently change an object to something very far removed from its nature?
Or would the new form be considered contrary to the "original" form, giving it a reduced duration anyways?

[Claxon]

Rules are unclear on this point.

As a GM, I would base it on the original form of whatever the target was.

[Entryhazard]

Shiroi wrote:

Can you PAO things with a permanent duration multiple times?

Pebble to tiny statue of a person.
Tiny statue to a large clockwork.
Clockwork to a real person.
Real person to x.
Would this make a legal way to permanently change an object to something very far removed from its nature?
Or would the new form be considered contrary to the "original" form, giving it a reduced duration anyways?

As the spell isn't instantaneous but perpetually in effect, always count the "original" form. Dispel magic is always a fun thing to cast.

[Trimalchio]

Here's some relevant rules text on multiple polymorphs:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Transmutation wrote:

You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.

the entire section on transmutation is worth reading.

[Claxon]

Trimalchio wrote:

Here's some relevant rules text on multiple polymorphs:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Transmutation wrote:

You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.

the entire section on transmutation is worth reading.

That's a good point I had forgotten.

[Axoren]

Trimalchio wrote:

Here's some relevant rules text on multiple polymorphs:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Transmutation wrote:

You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.

the entire section on transmutation is worth reading.

However, PAO introduces a Will save. It's one of the only Polymorphs to not specify "willing" targets. This seems to be contrary to the "you can decide" clause. It would be a shame to be able to counter an 8th level spell simply by Beast Shaping and saying "I refuse to change."

Now, the idea that you can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time makes sense. It falls into the category of Spells with Contradictory Effects, which the most recent effect takes priority. Now, the reason that a subject affected by two polymorph spells gets to pick is because the willing polymorph spells are dismissable at will. This means to accept or reject the new polymorph, all the target needs to do is dismiss the existing effect or harmless negate the incoming effect.

PAO is very bothersome because it breaks a lot of the norms of Polymorph in general. It targets items and can make creatures out of them, it can be used offensively, and it has duration categories that can create a permanent conversion from one thing to another.

Regular Pathfinder Polymorphs allow you to become creature-like, but not becoming those creatures. Elemental Body won't get you Magma Elemental Forms. There aren't any spells that give you an Aberration Form (closest you can get is Monstrous Physique), although a Witch can get a Hex that does it. There's no Ooze Form spell, etc.

PAO suggests (at least when I was interpreting it), that it was breaking the mold and letting you Polymorph anything into anything. There's no precedent for making things on the boundary of existing polymorphs. When you make a Fire Elemental with PAO, you gain +6 Dex and +4 CON and +4 Nat AC. However, the second we try to apply Elemental Body logic to Magma Elementals, it fails. +6 Dex doesn't make sense because an Elder Magma Elemental has 8 Dex to its name.

Let's say instead you decided to become an Aberration of some sort. There's no Polymorph that turns you into an Aberration. Cthulu is on the table all of a sudden. He only takes up 40 ft. space, which falls well within the bounds of PAO's size limitation. If PAO lets you PAO Cthulu, how do you stat Cthul-you? If PAO doesn't let you PAO Cthulu, why?

If it's simply the fact that there's no emulatable Polymorph spell to accomplish that task, then there are so many lesser creatures that you can't create with it. Basic Oozes, Lesser Fey, etc.

Accepting that you need a chain of emulatable polymorph effects to reach the target form, you cannot turn creatures into glass cups. You can turn stone cups into creatures and vice-versa, but not when they're glass cups. Why is that? Because none of the listed effects PAO can duplicate can turn flesh or stone or metal or wood into glass.

So, we've got two dangerous sides to this argument. Either you can Polymorph anything into Cthulu, or you can't polymorph anything into a glass cup, not even a wooden cup.

[Shiroi]

You know, it's an 8th level highly open ended and poorly worded spell. I'm ruling it like wish in my games, you can do it like any existing poly spell, flesh to anything, et cetera and if you step out of line you need to make some knowledge whatever you're making and ask the DM if you know what you're doing or if it messes up bad.

[alexd1976]

Shiroi wrote:

Can you PAO things with a permanent duration multiple times?

Pebble to tiny statue of a person.
Tiny statue to a large clockwork.
Clockwork to a real person.
Real person to x.
Would this make a legal way to permanently change an object to something very far removed from its nature?
Or would the new form be considered contrary to the "original" form, giving it a reduced duration anyways?

This is a common usage of the spell.

We often turn dragons into ducks... or children's books. :D

[Shiroi]

alexd1976 wrote:

Shiroi wrote:

Can you PAO things with a permanent duration multiple times?

Pebble to tiny statue of a person.
Tiny statue to a large clockwork.
Clockwork to a real person.
Real person to x.
Would this make a legal way to permanently change an object to something very far removed from its nature?
Or would the new form be considered contrary to the "original" form, giving it a reduced duration anyways?

This is a common usage of the spell.

We often turn dragons into ducks... or children's books. :D

Though, looking at earlier comments, not legally by raw apparently. :)

And as a side note for why I'd rule it like wish, it's because I wouldn't let people wish in cthulhu from a caltrop for 20 minutes either.

[alexd1976]

There are limitations to this spell, you can't create magical items, and making creatures from inanimate objects results in crappy stats.

But it seems pretty clear that you can use Polymorph any Object to do exactly what the title says...

The spell CAN duplicate the other Polymorph spells, it also has its own unique text... read the unique text first.

You can turn a pebble into a horse, it just isn't permanent.

[Claxon]

Alexd1976, he's referring about chaining together multiple PAO turn get a permanent (or simply longer duration) change into a form by making smaller incremental changes and casting the spell multiple times.

This isn't possible since you can only be affected by one polymorph spell.

And yes, having any other polymorph spell cast on you does prevent PAO from working. It's the best way to protect against what is otherwise effectively a save or die.

[alexd1976]

Claxon wrote:

Alexd1976, he's referring about chaining together multiple PAO turn get a permanent (or simply longer duration) change into a form by making smaller incremental changes and casting the spell multiple times.

This isn't possible since you can only be affected by one polymorph spell.

And yes, having any other polymorph spell cast on you does prevent PAO from working. It's the best way to protect against what is otherwise effectively a save or die.

Huh.

That is odd, is that a change from 3.5? We have always allowed multiple castings...

I like my dragon ducks.

[Tacticslion]

Quack-thoooom!
/sluggy reference

[alexd1976]

This fundamentally alters my beliefs about certain aspects of the game.

We used to spend MULTIPLE SESSIONS changing things into other things...

Heck, at one point we had an elder water elemental that had been turned into a duck... who retained his personality... and gained like twenty levels as a sorcerer...

Good old Swish-Sploosh a.k.a Doom Duck

Best.
Cohort.
Ever.

Now I'm sad.

[Tacticslion]

It's why I developed a 9th level variant that has a category of 11+ which is instantaneous.

[alexd1976]

Tacticslion wrote:

It's why I developed a 9th level variant that has a category of 11+ which is instantaneous.

You have given me hope for the future.

Truthfully, we will likely continue to just allow multiple castings, having a second level spell make you immune to an 8th level one seems... odd. (Alter Self>Polymorph Any Object).

[Trimalchio]

Claxon wrote:

Alexd1976, he's referring about chaining together multiple PAO turn get a permanent (or simply longer duration) change into a form by making smaller incremental changes and casting the spell multiple times.

This isn't possible since you can only be affected by one polymorph spell.

And yes, having any other polymorph spell cast on you does prevent PAO from working. It's the best way to protect against what is otherwise effectively a save or die.

I think the specificity of PAO trumps the general when it comes to deciding if Polymorph effects you, same goes for baleful Polymorph, having alter self cast on you doesn't suddenly grant immunity to all other Polymorph effects. I read the clause of 'deciding' pertaining to the will (harmless) Polymorph effects.

[alexd1976]

Trimalchio wrote:

Claxon wrote:

Alexd1976, he's referring about chaining together multiple PAO turn get a permanent (or simply longer duration) change into a form by making smaller incremental changes and casting the spell multiple times.

This isn't possible since you can only be affected by one polymorph spell.

And yes, having any other polymorph spell cast on you does prevent PAO from working. It's the best way to protect against what is otherwise effectively a save or die.

I think the specificity of PAO trumps the general when it comes to deciding if Polymorph effects you, same goes for baleful Polymorph, having alter self cast on you doesn't suddenly grant immunity to all other Polymorph effects. I read the clause of 'deciding' pertaining to the will (harmless) Polymorph effects.

But can I have my dragon-ducks?