Creative Director
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I'm not sure if this is the right place for this, but it is at least relevant.
In this AP I'm planing on playing a Chelish Diva. Now Kintargo has 11,900 population if I remember right and the Diva's Famous ability is restricted to an amount below that total number until 9th level. From what I read it sounds like there won't be much traveling to cities or towns out of Kintargo during the AP. So is there a way to make use of this class feature before 9th level during the AP? Like picking small communities within the city itself?
Using the rules as written, no—but then again, the expectation is that when you start a Hell's Rebels campaign, your character isn't quite yet famous. There are some traits and bits of advice in the Hell's Rebels Player's Guide that you might want to check out, but beyond that, you will indeed need to wait until 9th level to select all of Kintargo for your modifiers to kick in.
THAT SAID... Kintargo does have eight distinct districts within its walls. It's not exactly accurate to say that dividing the city's population by 8 results in each district being roughly 1,487 people, but it's close enough for the purposes of this archetype.
SO, I would say that when you reach 5th level, you should be able to choose one of Kintargo's districts to gain your bonuses. Then, when you reach 9th level, that'll expand to cover all of Kintargo.
Does mean that from 1st to 4th level, you'll not be gaining much in the way of a benefit for this archetype class ability. As a compromise, I'd suggest to any GMs who want to use these variant rules for Chelish Divas to allow such an archetype to be able to add her +1 bonus to Bluff and Intimidate to one target per game session—this represents one NPC who has heard of the PC, more or less, but doesn't mean that the PC is well-known throughout the city.
Hope those suggestions help!
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The total population divided by 8 is the easiest and most workable solution. Your GM may instead want to consider the first 1,000 or so to apply to the most die-hard opera fans, such as nobles, censors, Shelyn worshipers, merchants who cater to the tastes of people influenced by theatrical celebrities, etc., but that approach is definitely more work for the GM.
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Creative Director
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Chelish Diva is a really fun idea for a character in this AP in any event... and if you can stomach having one of your class abilities being "nerfed" for part of the campaign, the flavor of the class should be quite rewarding to play in this game.
Another option, of course, would be to simply grant the archetype the ability to be famous in Kintargo... and ONLY in Kintargo. She'd get her bonuses to Bluff and Intimidate against citizens of the Silver City, but nowhere else. Overall, this means that she'd be less famous outside of the city, and the AP does go outside the city walls now and then so this WILL have an impact now and then... but I'd say it'd be a fine tradeoff for playing a character archetype that's so on-theme for the AP.
Hope your GM is wiling to bend the rules for you!
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Chelish Diva is a really fun idea for a character in this AP in any event... and if you can stomach having one of your class abilities being "nerfed" for part of the campaign, the flavor of the class should be quite rewarding to play in this game.
Another option, of course, would be to simply grant the archetype the ability to be famous in Kintargo... and ONLY in Kintargo. She'd get her bonuses to Bluff and Intimidate against citizens of the Silver City, but nowhere else. Overall, this means that she'd be less famous outside of the city, and the AP does go outside the city walls now and then so this WILL have an impact now and then... but I'd say it'd be a fine tradeoff for playing a character archetype that's so on-theme for the AP.
Hope your GM is wiling to bend the rules for you!
The downside of this option being of course, that all the celebrity benefit concert jokes you would have made after some trip to Strixburg in Sticksville won't really work.
There was a fellow who played a Chelish Diva in a CoT game here on the boards. Very decent battle bard since he went for Str based and double-handing a longsword with arcane strike+buffs.
So having a burly baritone half-orc ala BRIAN BLESSED! who crushes Hellknights with a greataxe and singing viking songs can be awesome. Or go for a dwarven dwarf-axe singing lady who is 'generously endowed' and has long braids and a winged helmet.
I'm not sure if this is the right place for this, but it is at least relevant.
In this AP I'm planing on playing a Chelish Diva. Now Kintargo has 11,900 population if I remember right and the Diva's Famous ability is restricted to an amount below that total number until 9th level. From what I read it sounds like there won't be much traveling to cities or towns out of Kintargo during the AP. So is there a way to make use of this class feature before 9th level during the AP? Like picking small communities within the city itself?
Based on what I've read about the density of cities in the middle ages, (about 50,000 people per square mile,) if you compare the size of Golarian cities to their population, they are pretty under inhabited judged from the city map. Would a town of 11,900 support an opera, several major churches, a university, a private school, a provincial government, a port, major military infrastructure, manufacturing, a museum, etc, etc? Realistically not, you just have to clalk it up to fantasy. A more realistic population for Kintargo would be maybe 40,000.
Well considering that Golarion is considered a high magic setting, the manufacturing and mining operations are probably handled through magical means with a wizard or such normally handling the "white-hat" management while the common folk do the backbreaking labor. But I could be reading too much into the availability of magic.
To the OP, I have a player in my campaign who wanted to do the same thing. I worked with him to create an extra neighborhood in Redroof called Hell's Kitchen, and that is where he starts his fame. Coincidentally (or not) this is also the location of a certain important NPC later on.
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I'm not sure if this is the right place for this, but it is at least relevant.
In this AP I'm planing on playing a Chelish Diva. Now Kintargo has 11,900 population if I remember right and the Diva's Famous ability is restricted to an amount below that total number until 9th level. From what I read it sounds like there won't be much traveling to cities or towns out of Kintargo during the AP. So is there a way to make use of this class feature before 9th level during the AP? Like picking small communities within the city itself?
Using the rules as written, no—but then again, the expectation is that when you start a Hell's Rebels campaign, your character isn't quite yet famous. There are some traits and bits of advice in the Hell's Rebels Player's Guide that you might want to check out, but beyond that, you will indeed need to wait until 9th level to select all of Kintargo for your modifiers to kick in.
THAT SAID... Kintargo does have eight distinct districts within its walls. It's not exactly accurate to say that dividing the city's population by 8 results in each district being roughly 1,487 people, but it's close enough for the purposes of this archetype.
SO, I would say that when you reach 5th level, you should be able to choose one of Kintargo's districts to gain your bonuses. Then, when you reach 9th level, that'll expand to cover all of Kintargo.
Does mean that from 1st to 4th level, you'll not be gaining much in the way of a benefit for this archetype class ability. As a compromise, I'd suggest to any GMs who want to use these variant rules for Chelish Divas to allow such an archetype to be able to add her +1 bonus to Bluff and Intimidate to one target per game session—this represents one NPC who has heard of the PC, more or less, but doesn't mean that the PC is well-known throughout the city.
Hope those suggestions help!
Couldn't for levels 1-4 the character could be, say the darling of say, a tavern, then a neighborhood, then a district, then Kintargo?
Thats what i would do:-)
Based on what I've read about the density of cities in the middle ages, (about 50,000 people per square mile,) if you compare the size of Golarian cities to their population, they are pretty under inhabited judged from the city map. Would a town of 11,900 support an opera, several major churches, a university, a private school, a provincial government, a port, major military infrastructure, manufacturing, a museum, etc, etc? Realistically not, you just have to clalk it up to fantasy. A more realistic population for Kintargo would be maybe 40,000.I'm not sure if this is the right place for this, but it is at least relevant.
In this AP I'm planing on playing a Chelish Diva. Now Kintargo has 11,900 population if I remember right and the Diva's Famous ability is restricted to an amount below that total number until 9th level. From what I read it sounds like there won't be much traveling to cities or towns out of Kintargo during the AP. So is there a way to make use of this class feature before 9th level during the AP? Like picking small communities within the city itself?
This is a fantasy world, right?
And 50,000 people per square mile in the Middle Ages actually sounds rather high to me. I would think half that, at the most, might be accurate, IMO.
I'm not sure if this is the right place for this, but it is at least relevant.
This is a fantasy world, right?
And 50,000 people per square mile in the Middle Ages actually sounds rather high to me. I would think half that, at the most, might be accurate, IMO.Maybe, a bit high, depending on your source. According to Wikipedia, City of London and subsection Midieval Period which was 1.12 sq miles had 80,000 person in 1300, lower after the black plague. I've read other estimates, that only 60,000 were inside the 1.12 sq mile walls, and rest outside. Another site 222pair.com estimated 38,850 per square mile for an average city. rpglibrary.org/utils/meddemog/ has good calculating generator and uses the 38,850 number. To picture it, Paris has a density of 55,673 today. Wikipedia said that Kalwoon Walled City in Hong Kong had 33,000 people in 6.4 acres (that's not a typo.)
Oh, I can believe that number for today. I just thought it was rather high for then.