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Here's the thing. I think that taking burn to do more things is not balanced. I think the current kineticist is balanced, numbers-wise, I just don't like burn. Why not apply burn to different kind of penalty rather than HP? For example what if it gave you vulnerabilities to the energy type opposing your own since elemental overflow seems to give you some properties of your primary element visually?
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I'd just add a mechanic similar to "ki points" or whatever. Some resource pool equal to [attribute modifier + half level] and use those instead of burning hp.
Burn is a horrible mechanic that does nothing but harm an otherwise great class. Kineticist is not even close to being powerful enough to justify the burn penalty.
Screwing with the burn economy is a really bad way to approach it.
I honestly can't think of a good reason why burn should damage you. At the very least, change it so that it reduces your max hit points instead of giving you nonlethal damage that breaks the rules on how damage works. This way, it's easier to book keep and doesn't cripple you when you're low on hit points. Otherwise, burn encourages you to play safely, which isn't heroic and goes against (what I perceive) as the point of burn as a risk/reward system.
I love the burn mechanic but it's implemented as a book keeping annoyance.
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It's not the fact that Burn is a bad mecanic; it's that they were adamant to tell us that Burn cannot be healed outside of resting, like they were strict about it.
You want to fix Burn? Simple, really simple...
- Have a feat that allow to recover from Burn, like one point per hour or minute.
- Have a feat that allows you to heal Burn via normal means, like healing spells and potions.
- Have a spell that heals Burn specifically
- Have a magic item that "absorbs" Burn until it shatters.
You want to balance these? Simple, again. Make them expansive or with high requirements.
You have to keep the burn... this is a Con class, and to be a Con class, you have to do something to minimize the overwhelming number of HPs generated. You have to balance how much world-altering things you can do vs your tank-ability.
As JiCi stated, the only real 'fix' would be a way to recover burn and the HPs associated with it. Throwing burn away because you don't like it, that just breaks things worse than they are.
Instead of HP damage, couldn't it be as simple as moving down a sort of condition track?
Step 1 = At burn max? = fatigued until rest
Step 2 = At burn max + 2? = exhausted until rest (replaces fatigued)
Step 3 = At burn max + 4? = staggered until rest
Step 4 = At burn max + 6? = unconscious for 1 min or until healed
Step 5 = At burn max + 8? = drop to -1 hp and dying, until healed to 0+ hp
Step 6 = At burn max + 10? = dead
Track conditions stack.
The "max" here being a threshold, not an actual cap. So a kineticist could except burn all day, but eventually it would kill them without messing with their HP pools.
Another option is to have a burn threshold value, say Con bonus + 1/4 level. For every point of burn you accept, you roll 1d6 (that's a max of 7d6 at 18th level for a 7-burn blast), if your roll is greater than or equal to your burn threshold, you move down the above track one step. For every 5 over your threshold, or fraction thereof, you move down 1 more step. If you roll below burn threshold, no penalty; enjoy your augmented blast.
So if you made a 7-burn blast at lvl 18, and say your burn threshold was 9 (5 Con + 4 for level), and you rolled say 24 on your burn roll (avg roll for 7d6), you would move 4 steps down the condition track and be unconscious, staggered, and exhausted after your blast went off (>9 = 1 step; >9+5 = 2 steps; >9+10 = 3 steps; >=9+15 = 4 steps)
These changes would likely require dropping the Constitution dependency though, as they no longer need all of that HP.
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As JiCi stated, the only real 'fix' would be a way to recover burn and the HPs associated with it. Throwing burn away because you don't like it, that just breaks things worse than they are.
The thing is that there ARE ways to prevent Burn, such as Gather Power. The problem is that if you ever Burn... you're screwed.
How so? You're gradually getting more vulnerable to non-lethal damage. Don't forget that if you take half your full HP total in non-lethal damage, you fall unconscious. The more you Burn, the more at risk you get. The more lethal damage you take WHILE Burned, the worst you'll get.
Sure, Elemental Overflow will bolster you, but only for a short while.
That's why I think that regular methods such as feats, spells and magic items would have been a good idea to have to counter Burn. The devs even went AS FAR AS stating that being resistant or immune to non-lethal damage doesn't allow you to Burn.
Ok... really now? Hey, if I find a way to counter Burn, I want to be rewarded for that, not punished...
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You have to keep the burn... this is a Con class, and to be a Con class, you have to do something to minimize the overwhelming number of HPs generated.
Because HEAVEN FORBID a Con based class gets to enjoy the benefits of having a high Con.
Hey, while we're at it, let's make it so every time a Wizard casts a spell, he loses 1 skill rank per level. Or a Sorcerer takes a penalty on Charisma based checks.
Shit, man, why don't we make Rage impart a penalty to Fort saves equal to 1 for every round of Rage burned?
Because, as everyone knows, no class should EVER get any use out of its main stat. That's just crazy talk!
How so? You're gradually getting more vulnerable to non-lethal damage. Don't forget that if you take half your full HP total in non-lethal damage, you fall unconscious. The more you Burn, the more at risk you get. The more lethal damage you take WHILE Burned, the worst you'll get.
That's not how non-lethal works. Once your non-lethal damage exceeds your current hitpoints, you fall unconscious. Not sure where you're getting the "half" from.
Ok... really now? Hey, if I find a way to counter Burn, I want to be rewarded for that, not punished...
And if I find a way to cast infinite spells, I want the devs to have done a better job writing the rules in the first place.
You have to keep the burn... this is a Con class, and to be a Con class, you have to do something to minimize the overwhelming number of HPs generated.Because HEAVEN FORBID a Con based class gets to enjoy the benefits of having a high Con.
You are getting benefits from the high Con. A great Fort save, great damage, great CMB... the only thing different is that you have the option to have fewer HPs by having greater damage output, or universe control.
I'm not crazy about burn, but it's a resource that you can, or can choose not to, use. You can blast all day long, even using unique techniques such as snaking, exploding, torrenting, all without burn (dependent on level of course). And personally, coming from an Air Wizard class who had almost no offense, and most spells were about invisiblility or telekinesis (all of which I do for free at-will now) which had fewer HPs maxxed than I now have with max burn, I'm ecstatic with what I can do, and my survivability is so much higher in the process, with a never ending stream of damage-output.
That's not how non-lethal works. Once your non-lethal damage exceeds your current hitpoints, you fall unconscious. Not sure where you're getting the "half" from.
Oh... 3.0 stygma... sorry ^^;
And if I find a way to cast infinite spells, I want the devs to have done a better job writing the rules in the first place.
Technically, that's not the same thing, because in spellcasting there is a TON of options, be class features, feats, actual spells, etc...
The Burn mecanic on the other hand basically shuts down every single way to counter it.
People don't like the burn mechanic? News to me, it seems perfectly fine from where I'm sitting.
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The entire class concept is built for an "all day long" chassis. The Burn mechanic is a "daily" resource constraint. Simply put, the daily resource constraint step is a LARGE step up from the all day long chassis. This makes it feel like it doesn't belong. This eliminates too much strategy usage of Burn and turns it into a Hail Mary only ability.
The simplest fix to Burn is to let it inflict normal damage and let it be healed as normal damage. This changes the mechanic to "per combat". This is the natural intermediate step between all day long and daily.
An alternate fix, one that retains the current flavor, would be to make the Burn effect be static rather than increasing with hit die. Make each point of Burn do a specific amount of damage (minimum of 5 or their HD) that can't be healed normally. That would create the effect that a higher level kineticist naturally gets better dealing with burn.
Either fix would drastically increase the strategy usage in the Burn mechanic in my mind.
Common Wisdom is that combat healing is not a good choice.
As such, the worst that Burn does is knock you out. But Lethal damage might kill you.
Being knocked out, rarely kills, because foes usually ignore downed targets and coup de graces are only for the most evil of circumstances.
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They designed the Unchained Barbarian because coming out of a rage with a regular barbarian could kill you.
That's not tactics, that's just math.
Burn isn't nearly as bad as people make it out to be.
But if you don't like it in your home games, just treat burn like a ki pool. When you run out that's that until you rest.
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People don't like the burn mechanic? News to me, it seems perfectly fine from where I'm sitting.
Pay more attention then. Since the playtest everyone's been pretty much split down the middle on whether they like Burn, or HATE it.
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People don't like the burn mechanic? News to me, it seems perfectly fine from where I'm sitting.
I wasn't there at the playtests, but from what I've heard, people hated the Burn mecanic so much that devs basically screamed: "STOP ASKING TO CHANGE THE BURN MECANIC! WE'RE KEEPING IT AS IT IS! YOU CANNOT HEAL IT EXCEPT BY RESTING! DEAL WITH IT!"
There can be a lot of confusion (and problems) about the Burn mecanic. Here's a few examples:
- Gather Power lets you reduce Burn, but it takes longer, up to 5 Burn points at 11th level if he uses a full round action AND a move action to Gather Power. Fair enough, except that you must have your hands, not even holding an item. Nothing allows a kineticist to hold his +3 conductive flaming spear in one hand while Gathering. I hope you like gauntlets, because it seems to be the only weapon that you can "hold on" while gathering.
- Infusion Specialization only applies to infusions, as Metakinesis and Composite Specialization are considered separate Talents. Even if by 20th level, you can reduce Burn by 6 points... you still need to Gather Power if you want to use a Composite Blast, be with or without Metakinesis. Another issue is that... very few times are you ever gonna need to Burn 6 points... at once.
- Composite Specialization comes in late... very late. You get it at 16th... when you get Expanded Element at 7th.
- Metakinetic Master only applies to one type... and it's at 19th level. Why not sooner? I dunno...
You can't really change these because it would make them broken, especially the Composite Blasts and Metakinesis. That's why I say that in order to "fix" the Kineticist, you just need to give him more options. Feats are easy to add, and they shouldn't be taken lightly either. Apparently, the Kineticist is also very feat-dependant.
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You have to keep the burn... this is a Con class, and to be a Con class, you have to do something to minimize the overwhelming number of HPs generated.Because HEAVEN FORBID a Con based class gets to enjoy the benefits of having a high Con.
You are getting benefits from the high Con. A great Fort save, great damage, great CMB... the only thing different is that you have the option to have fewer HPs by having greater damage output, or universe control.
I'm not crazy about burn, but it's a resource that you can, or can choose not to, use. You can blast all day long, even using unique techniques such as snaking, exploding, torrenting, all without burn (dependent on level of course). And personally, coming from an Air Wizard class who had almost no offense, and most spells were about invisiblility or telekinesis (all of which I do for free at-will now) which had fewer HPs maxxed than I now have with max burn, I'm ecstatic with what I can do, and my survivability is so much higher in the process, with a never ending stream of damage-output.
Again, by this logic, since a Wizard gets spells, spell DCs, and more spells per day, he should get none of the normal benefits of high Int. New languages and extra skills need not apply.
Which is just stupid. A high stat should always give its normal benefits PLUS whatever the class benefits are from it. Also WTF does CMB have to do with this? Con doesn't apply to CMB. Or CMD.
And "great damage", really? With energy blasts your damage is garbage and with physical blasts it's about average. And the class NEEDS Burn to function for like the first 11 levels of its career. You can't avoid it and still do something interesting or deal good damage.
Requiring you to give up one of the benefits of your high Con for abilities that most classes can do without weakening them is just poor design. It's an obnoxious mechanic.
You know what a good "quick fix" for Burn is? Trash it, and replace it with an ability that just gives you a pool of stuff you can use.
3+Con per day "Burn points" or whatever. It gives the same limitation of uses per day without adding a silly extra downside.
You have to keep the burn... this is a Con class, and to be a Con class, you have to do something to minimize the overwhelming number of HPs generated.Because HEAVEN FORBID a Con based class gets to enjoy the benefits of having a high Con.
You are getting benefits from the high Con. A great Fort save, great damage, great CMB... the only thing different is that you have the option to have fewer HPs by having greater damage output, or universe control.
I'm not crazy about burn, but it's a resource that you can, or can choose not to, use. You can blast all day long, even using unique techniques such as snaking, exploding, torrenting, all without burn (dependent on level of course). And personally, coming from an Air Wizard class who had almost no offense, and most spells were about invisiblility or telekinesis (all of which I do for free at-will now) which had fewer HPs maxxed than I now have with max burn, I'm ecstatic with what I can do, and my survivability is so much higher in the process, with a never ending stream of damage-output.
Again, by this logic, since a Wizard gets spells, spell DCs, and more spells per day, he should get none of the normal benefits of high Int. New languages and extra skills need not apply.
Not true... why do you think a Wizard, the most studied/libraried character in the game gets Int+2 Skills per level? They had to taper it because his Intelligence is such a focal point.
However, unlike Kineticists, Wizards are in need of at least 3 stats (Dex/Con/Int). Kineticist only 2, of which the primary (Con) is a stat that absolutely every single class not only needs, but can't afford to dump. It's the least dumpable stat in the entire game, primarily because of HPs. There is a lot more of a balance issue when the primary stat is Con.
Not true... why do you think a Wizard, the most studied/libraried character in the game gets Int+2 Skills per level? They had to taper it because his Intelligence is such a focal point.
Just wanted to say - 2+INT is the default for many classes (clerics, sorcerers, paladins, fighters, etc.). It's not a balancing point specifically for wizards due to their high INT.
In fact, there are plenty of INT-dependent classes that have more than 2+INT skill points per level. Take a look at the Investigator, for instance. Or the Alchemist.