OK, me and another fellow player of pathfinder got into an argument about whether magic items such as belts of giant strength, headbands of alluring charisma, etc that grant ability score increases are permanent even after you take them off and sell them. I say you lose the bonus after it is removed even if it is after the 24 hour period. I know this because I read it somewhere, but cant remember where. And this player will not take no for an answer unless he is shown the rules about it. I was wondering if anyone can point out the page number in the appropriate pathfinder book, provide a link or tell me if it is in a FAQ. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Seriously?
This belt is a thick leather affair, often decorated with huge metal buckles. The belt grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Strength of +2, +4, or +6. Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the belt is worn.
The belt grants the bonus... so take off the belt and AWAY goes the bonus.
Treating the bonus as temporary for the first 24 hours doesn't mean it becomes permanent, it means you can't use it to qualify for feats until you have worn it 24 hours.
After 24 hours the bonus becomes 'permanent' only in the sense that it alters your stats in such a way that you can use the new stat to qualify for feats.
Again, take off the belt, bonus goes away.
It's Tomes and Manuals that actually permanently increase stats, not belts and headbands.
here is another way to look at it...
The bonus TYPE changes after 24 hours. You can call the bonus TYPE whatever you want.
If something permanently adds to your stat, it will say so. Like the books.
here is another way to look at it...
The bonus TYPE changes after 24 hours. You can call the bonus TYPE whatever you want.
If something permanently adds to your stat, it will say so. Like the books.
Again I agree with what your saying, but again this player argues rules constantly with me, I just need it to where it says in an official source or he won't shut up about it.
Again I agree with what your saying, but again this player argues rules constantly with me, I just need it to where it says in an official source or he won't shut up about it.here is another way to look at it...
The bonus TYPE changes after 24 hours. You can call the bonus TYPE whatever you want.
If something permanently adds to your stat, it will say so. Like the books.
Nowhere does it say that the bonuses continue to apply after the item is gone... It's kinda hard to argue with that.
It's not going to say the bonuses go away when you take it off, because that's ALWAYS the case.
Like, you can't attack someone with a sword you already sold.
Tell the player that if he can show text supporting his point, then he is right. There isn't any, so problem is solved.
Again I agree with what your saying, but again this player argues rules constantly with me, I just need it to where it says in an official source or he won't shut up about it.here is another way to look at it...
The bonus TYPE changes after 24 hours. You can call the bonus TYPE whatever you want.
If something permanently adds to your stat, it will say so. Like the books.
Nowhere does it say that the bonuses continue to apply after the item is gone... It's kinda hard to argue with that.
It's not going to say the bonuses go away when you take it off, because that's ALWAYS the case.
Like, you can't attack someone with a sword you already sold.
Tell the player that if he can show text supporting his point, then he is right. There isn't any, so problem is solved.
OK, dude I think what you just said clicked. For example:
Belt of Giant Strength
This belt is a thick leather affair, often decorated with huge metal buckles. The belt grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Strength of +2, +4, or +6. Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the belt is worn.
The belt for example provides an "enhancement bonus" to strength. You then treat this as a "temporary ability bonus" for the first 24 hours the belt is worn. You take of the belt you lose the "enhancement bonus." This applies to all magic item like this including headbands and belts alike. Thanks for clearing that up.
1) Make him prove it. It's hard to prove that something doesn't exist, have him prove that it does exist instead.
AND/OR
2) If you're the GM tell him tough, you know the rule and you're ruling it this way. If you're not the GM tell the GM the rule and that the other guy is wrong and have the GM say that he's going to rule it correctly.
If it didn't work this way, you could just share belts/headbands. After a week, everyone in the party would have the permanent bonus to whatever ability, then you could sell the belt back. This would be ridiculous.
Compare the language given for the Belt of Giant Strength with that given for the Manual of Gainful Exercise. The differences between the two are quite stark.
If the bonus for the belt was meant to be permanent for a single wearer, there would be language to the effect that the belt becomes non-magical after 24 hours, since there would be no reason to keep wearing it after that point. If the bonus for the belt was meant to be permanent for any number of people who have worn it, we would long ago have had published scenarios where people would be questing for the privilege of wearing somebody else's Belt of Giant Strength for 24 hours.
1) Make him prove it. It's hard to prove that something doesn't exist, have him prove that it does exist instead.
AND/OR
2) If you're the GM tell him tough, you know the rule and you're ruling it this way. If you're not the GM tell the GM the rule and that the other guy is wrong and have the GM say that he's going to rule it correctly.
The GM is part of the problem, I just explained to him what I posted above, but he says the GM told it was permanent even after he takes off the item. I hoping it was just a misunderstanding, but if it turns out the GM agrees with him, then I am just gonna quit the game. I have had to put up with this player's shenanigans for some time now. Right now he is trying to create his own prestige class because he wants to be something like a "ghost rider". My group has allowed some third party content and done some house ruling on some grey areas and other things. But if our GM rules this way for the item issue discussed in this thread, then I am through and will just walk away.
Look up the ring of invisibility/hat of disguise FAQ. Should help
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The GM is part of the problem, I just explained to him what I posted above, but he says the GM told it was permanent even after he takes off the item. I hoping it was just a misunderstanding, but if it turns out the GM agrees with him, then I am just gonna quit the game. I have had to put up with this player's shenanigans for some time now. Right now he is trying to create his own prestige class because he wants to be something like a "ghost rider". My group has allowed some third party content and done some house ruling on some grey areas and other things. But if our GM rules this way for the item issue discussed in this thread, then I am through and will just walk away.1) Make him prove it. It's hard to prove that something doesn't exist, have him prove that it does exist instead.
AND/OR
2) If you're the GM tell him tough, you know the rule and you're ruling it this way. If you're not the GM tell the GM the rule and that the other guy is wrong and have the GM say that he's going to rule it correctly.
Wow, if the GM says it works that way, it does... but he won't be doing it right.
I wouldn't walk away, I would borrow the belt, and go looking for headbands...
The GM is part of the problem, I just explained to him what I posted above, but he says the GM told it was permanent even after he takes off the item. I hoping it was just a misunderstanding, but if it turns out the GM agrees with him, then I am just gonna quit the game. I have had to put up with this player's shenanigans for some time now. Right now he is trying to create his own prestige class because he wants to be something like a "ghost rider". My group has allowed some third party content and done some house ruling on some grey areas and other things. But if our GM rules this way for the item issue discussed in this thread, then I am through and will just walk away.1) Make him prove it. It's hard to prove that something doesn't exist, have him prove that it does exist instead.
AND/OR
2) If you're the GM tell him tough, you know the rule and you're ruling it this way. If you're not the GM tell the GM the rule and that the other guy is wrong and have the GM say that he's going to rule it correctly.
There's a cavalier archetype in the occult adventures that is a ghost rider.
Again I agree with what your saying, but again this player argues rules constantly with me, I just need it to where it says in an official source or he won't shut up about it.here is another way to look at it...
The bonus TYPE changes after 24 hours. You can call the bonus TYPE whatever you want.
If something permanently adds to your stat, it will say so. Like the books.
if you're the GM what does it matter, tell him regardless of what the items may or may not do in pathfinder's rules, you are making them work this way.
edit: after reading all this, welp, what can you do.
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They're dead wrong, but hey, roll with the ruling. Then, when you can, buy a belt or headband+6. Wear it for one day. Then, sell it, buy another, wear it for a day, and you see where I'm going with this. When the GM, and the other player protests, explain to them that you're just using his ruling to get permanent +6's to all of your stats for cheaper than the various tome +5's. Then, buy a +5 tome of your primary stat. Enjoy your PERMANENT +11 to your primary stat.
Wallow in the tears of your GM and his pet player, as you smash his game over your knee, as you will more than likely have bonuses in the low 20's in your primary stat.
yeah honestly show him the tomes.
See if you can't rent the headbands and belts for a cheaper price than buying them as you'll only need them for a day.
But on a more serious note, if it worked like they said, why would the two stat belts and headbands exist? It's cheaper to buy one of each instead of buying a combined one.
The GM is part of the problem, I just explained to him what I posted above, but he says the GM told it was permanent even after he takes off the item. I hoping it was just a misunderstanding, but if it turns out the GM agrees with him, then I am just gonna quit the game. I have had to put up with this player's shenanigans for some time now. Right now he is trying to create his own prestige class because he wants to be something like a "ghost rider". My group has allowed some third party content and done some house ruling on some grey areas and other things. But if our GM rules this way for the item issue discussed in this thread, then I am through and will just walk away.
To be fair, there is nothing inherently wrong with the GM house-ruling stat belts and headbands as long as he makes it fair for all players. Sure, it's against the rules, but it's to the players' advantage and you can take advantage of it as well - just ask that player to borrow that belt for a day.
There's nothing wrong with the GM allowing home-brew either.
I don't really see this as a reason to walk away from the table, personally. Even if it doesn't follow official pathfinder rules, as long as the GM isn't specifically showing favoritism to that player, it should be fine. I would instead look at this as an opportunity - was there some other cool belt or headband item you wanted to try out? You can do that now, and save some of your wealth by sharing amongst teammates. Is there some cool concept that you wanted to play that isn't supported by Pathfinder rules? Bring it to him, and you might just get a chance to play it.
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I'd go with the previous suggestion that you simply cycle through buying-wearing-selling all of the standard items to get a permanent +6 bonus to all your abilities. Then start buying things like a Greater Belt of Mighty Hurling to increase your abilities even more. Throw in the Tomes when you can afford them. Just break the game. It's the only way that some GM's learn.
See if you can't rent the headbands and belts for a cheaper price than buying them as you'll only need them for a day.
But on a more serious note, if it worked like they said, why would the two stat belts and headbands exist? It's cheaper to buy one of each instead of buying a combined one.
You know, renting them out to other players and NPC's would be a great business strategy. Destroy the WBL while you are at it.
Yeah, but while I know that there are some grey areas in a game and while there some issues a gm may have to make a call on, this is not one of them. This is not even the cliche RAI vs RAW situation(I know some people don't like this kinda of wording here). This is straight up making the rules up and disregarding what was written by the developers/creators of the pathfinder game. I know there have been issues that I have not agreed with in the past that my gm or group has allowed, but I always rolled with the flow and let them go and tried to be a good sport about such things. But when stuff like this happens, we aren't playing pathfinder anymore, we are pretty much playing make believe and each one of us either batman or superman(or insert your own favorite superhero name here) with no limit to our powers or what we can do. I don't play this way, there is no fun or challenge to it what so ever. Sorry for the rant, just getting my two cents in. Thank you guys for answering my questions.
I get it. Finding another group to play with is probably the less stressful option.
This kinda agitates me.
I'm the GM of Swordfalcon's game, and NEVER did I say that belt and headband bonuses were kept after the item was removed. I remember this argument, and I thought I killed it as soon as it started. I did say the bonuses were permanent after 24 hours, but only if the item was still worn. It is my understanding that the temporary period keeps it from stacking with other temporary bonuses, such as Cat's Grace and Bull's Strength, and I explained as such.
Also, sorry this post is about a month late. I don't have a reliable internet connection, so I don't check the boards that often. And, with Occult Adventures out, that "Ghost Rider" prestige class the other player was trying to make has fallen through. Hell, it fell apart after I thought about it seriously while not half asleep.
Edit: If anyone around the table gets favoritism from me, it's Swordfalcon. he's basically the face of the party at this point. And he has a dragon... I really need more experience as a GM.