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Some character builds are like a finely tuned watch. You change a gear and the whole thing stops working.
What actual characters/builds were impacted.
What will the rules let you change, and what needs an exception (either on an individual basis or as a policy change)
Whats hurt, and whats broken beyond all repair?
This is a list for stuff that a solution to the advanced class guide errata would need to fix for PFS
Animal companions reduced below their previous level and have shrunk (solution, let people sell back the armor for now)
Some oracles don't qualify for channel revival anymore: Or they bought a headband of charisma when they now need a phylactery of positive channeling.
What if someone took extra channel mostly to have enough for channeled revival?
Dex monks relying on a style to make their hands qualify as piercing/slashing for fencing grace can;t flurry with fencing grace anymore. They probably bought an amulet of mighty fists other than agile. Since the style feats didn't change they can't retrain them, even if the reason they took them at all doesn't exist.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Animal companions reduced below their previous level and have shrunk (solution, let people sell back the armor for now)
Well, they are probably going to want to get that armor back in a level. I doubt anyone is going to be satisfied with small ACs long term.
Given the old faq of no animal companion with more than 1+ your HD, is this really a problem?
AC go up in size at level 4 or 7
Lvl
1 old AC 1* new AC 1
2 old AC 2* new AC 2
3 old AC 4 new AC 3
4 old AC 5* new AC 4
5 old AC 6* new AC 5
6 old AC 8* new AC 7
7 old AC 9* new AC 8
8 old AC 10* new AC 9
9 old AC 12* new AC 10
10 old AC 13* new AC 11
11 old AC 14* new AC 12
12 old AC 16* new AC 14
13 old AC 17* new AC 15
*capped by FAQ
So there should only be a single level where it is relevant? I suppose if someone had 5 levels of oracle, and one of something else, maybe.
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I was going to build and bring in a Two-weapon Fighting Swashbuckler for PFS. Slashing Grace on Sawtooth Sabers (Half-elf for the proficiency), had one in each hand, the total Dex to Damage on each, assuming hit, was worth more than Precise Strike at all points in the game (although it averaged out when you took into account hit rates). And then they made two-weapon fighting with Slashing Grace explicitly illegal, and it made me sad.
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I'm specifically curious of any actual PFS characters that are rendered unplayable or nearly so in a way that rebuilding doesn't fix.
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I had a Life Oracle who had put his 11 FCB into Channel, I could have gotten an extra Skill/HP but figured I should just lose all my FCB in recompense for the ability to channel like a 15th level cleric at Level 11.
I didn't see it as overpowered or broken, I thought it made me a more competitive channel-er versus a cleric of similar caliber. Its entirely built around support, I took extra Revelation as my first level feat to gain both Life Link and Channel at level 1. I took selective channeling at level 3, Extra channel at level 5, Extra revelation at 7 and 9 just to increase my pre-retirement capabilities. But I digress, the life oracle situation has been beaten horse dead already.
My Dervish of Dawn Bard/Swashbuckler however is a different story. He is Bard 4/Swashbuckler 2 planned Bard 4/Swashbuckler 7+. I have those 4 levels of bard + 2 FCB in HP + 2 FCB in +1/2 level to Inspire courage getting me that +2 to Attack/Damage a level early. I don't really see what is overpowered in giving up all future FCB to get +1 to attack/damage(well +2 to attack/damage thanks to the archetype). Especially since that 5th level of Bard doesn't get me much, no increase in BAB, Saves, +7 skill ranks(12 Int), +1 2nd level and a untyped +4 bonus to concentration checks. Where as the Swashbuckler level gives me +1 BAB, +2 to Reflex, +5 Skills, Deeds. 7th level of Swashbuckler is huge for me, the deed letting me move at full speed with acrobatics check is major for high levels as a squishier front-liner and so many of high level monsters being Large+.
However now, I get to take 1 more level of Bard, retrain FCB in HP and gain from 5th level of bard: +2 FCB HP, +7HP(14 con), +2 Attack/Damage, +0 Saves, +7 Skills, +1 Second Level Spell, +4 untyped Concetration. I lose the 7th level of Swashbuckler losing: -1 BAB, -1 AC, +0 Saves, -5 Skills, -8 HP, -1 Attack/Damage, -Cool 7th level deeds.
In the end, it doesn't make a big difference, It leave a bitter after taste in my mouth about this whole situation and these Errata's are certainly souring me on PFS but I'll continue playing this character because he is one of my favorites. 11th level will be a boring level, gaining really nothing instead of gaining some fun Swashbuckler abilities.
Did they kill Fencing Grace too? I thought that it was one of the few safe things because it wasn't in a hard back...
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My kensai magus, Favian Aldori was hit by the change to Slashing Grace in that I cannot use Spell Combat and Slashing Grace with his Aldori dueling sword.
Sure I could switch to the Fencing Grace path, but that make little sense given the character had taken the Aldori name.
On a positive note, the PC was still level 1. I'll just take his chronicle and make him something completely different.
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I don´t think counting unaffected characters only is helpfull and carries a slight, even if unintended subtone of what was deleted above, or could be misunderstood that way.
Fencing grace didn´t get an errata as far was i´m aware, what also means it still only applies to rapiers.
The feat meant here is most likely slashing grace.
One of my characters is affected as well, a monk using slashing grace on unarmed strikes. While that´s still possible to use, flurry isn´t possible anymore, what makes me kinda sad.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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I had a sword-and-board Paladin 2/Kata Master Monk 1 who lost the ability to Parry/Riposte, which is the reason I took that level of monk in the first place. Granted, John Compton's expanded retraining permissions let me retrain that monk level, and Paladin 2 is a good jumping-off point for a lot of builds, but it essentially means that reproducing my original concept will require even more multiclassing.
EDIT: I also had to de-level my Nature Oracle's mount (one adventure before going into Mammoth Rider! Ooph!), and revise my Bard, who chose to gain 6 more skill ranks rather than get his +3 Inspire Courage one level early. Neither of those were character-breaking, but the loss of 2 effective Druid levels was especially sad on a character built around having a bad-ass mount.
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Put me down as "seventeen unaffected characters."
Me too, unfortunately.
I wish the recent errata update had included notes on every new weapon introduced in the Advanced Race Guide to say what fighter weapon groups they're in, but it didn't. So I continue to have 16 PCs in PFS, and a 17th concept that will probably never be created, because the question I asked a year ago has never been answered by Paizo.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I'm having a little trouble parsing all the examples.
I see characters that have been reduced in power, but have any so far been broken?
People in other threads have put forward some clockwork builds that got broken. But most involved slashing grace, which already got a broad rebuild, or were pretty hand wavey or speculative ("I multiclassed and needed FCB to make ability X work (without details on why a reduced ability X doesn't work)" or "If someone had an AC it might have shrunk in the wash, and they could be stuck with the wrong size gear") but so far no one has posted builds outside of the slashing grace thing.
So far the only thing I have seen come close to specifics was "I needed the FCB to get enough channel dice to qualify for feat X, and now I am stuck with a useless feat."
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I'm specifically curious of any actual PFS characters that are rendered unplayable or nearly so in a way that rebuilding doesn't fix.
No longer getting greater polymorph at level 11 on my dark tapestry oracle defeats the pinnacle of fun that I was going to have with it at level 11. I have collected minis for that point and now I will not be able to use any of them for their intended purpose. He made it to level 9 or 10.
Not "unplayable" (He is still quite an effective character either way) but makes me lose all motivation to continue playing him. The fact that druids could have been getting better forms earlier and for longer periods of time so they don't have to spend their first action shapeshifting makes it quite disappointing to take away the one thing my character actually had as an advantage, which was more versatility with my polymorphing.
Gunslinger (Mysterious Stranger) 1/Lunar Oracle 7 - Still good. Companion is now on par with druid instead of overleveled, which is fine.
Winter Oracle 6 - Eh, he was using it to gimmick some early summoning of ice elementals. Wasn't really all that powerful to begin with and ends up not really changing much at all for him (He didn't even get to the level where he would start taking the FCB anyway). The main shtick he was doing was completely unrelated to the FCB.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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I had a hunter 1/oracle 5 that was super janky.
The hunter level had the Verminous Hunter archetype, and I had ritualistically killed off my vermin animal companion to get Fast Healing 1 permanently.
I comboed that with a Spirit Guide Life Oracle with FCB going into Channel, having a second Channel pool, and polished it off with Life Link. So I was effectively had a meat sack that took everyone's damage and slowly healed it. The plan was to never buy a wand of CLW during my career.
The flavor was that my character was a leper (wasting curse), that wrapped him self up like a mummy and wore an Osirion burial mask to cover his features (similar to Kingdom of Heaven). Whenever my Life Link ticked, I would bleed like a martyr through the mouth slit of my ivory mask, but I wouldn't die. If the character ever did die, I wouldn't resurrect him (marking him as dead in PFS), because he worshiped the concept of reincarnation and was expecting to come back as the kind of vermin he had killed, thus continuing the cycle.
The errata messed this overpowered build pretty well--killing both the hunter dip and the FCB channel shenanigans--which I am fine with. A one level dip for permanent Fast Healing 1 (and light fortification) is pretty stupid.
Fortunately, my GM for Skulls & Shackles is letting me keep the legacy build, so that we can still be the Immortal Crew of the Grindylow's Grin. The crew takes damage, their wounds mystically close, and I bleed in penance for their injuries before my wounds inexplicably close.
I don't know what will become of the oracle in PFS, I might burn a GenCon boon to rebuild him entirely.
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A friend of mine just played at Level 2 for an Aasimar Bard that was made before the cut-off. The level 2 build was built towards increasing Inspire Courage, and going with Flagbearer/Banner of the Ancient Kings. The FCB change basically makes the concept not work, and he would very much like to change to an archery focus to try to salvage the character.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Isn't it funny that no one ever sees an option they want to use as "overpowered or broken"?
"I didn't see it as overpowered or broken,"
I had a hunter 1/oracle 5 that was super janky.
....
The errata messed this overpowered build pretty well--killing both the hunter dip and the FCB channel shenanigans--which I am fine with. A one level dip for permanent Fast Healing 1 (and light fortification) is pretty stupid.
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oh, I see them all the time. and even take them sometimes...Isn't it funny that no one ever sees an option they want to use as "overpowered or broken"?
"I didn't see it as overpowered or broken,"
I saw some of the combos regarding the FCB bonuses could be taken to extremes. I don't think that any rule is overpowering by itself. The context matters.
Take Josephs Nature Oracle going mammoth rider: We talked about that combo a few years ago on the boards when mammoth rider came out. I avoided the combo because I felt that a HUGE pouncing tiger of doom that could be buffed by self spells from the cleric spell list was too overpowering for PFS. However, I was contemplating and probably would have used at some time in the future the same FCB bonus to make a pretty awesome horse.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Isn't it funny that no one ever sees an option they want to use as "overpowered or broken"?
"I didn't see it as overpowered or broken,"
Nah.
My flying barbarian and my level 2 entry bloat mage are broken as anything. (Well, my flying barb is slightly less broken than if I had gone multi-natural attack pounce beast, but that is just because multi natural attack pounce beast is broken too.)
My piccaroon/mysterious stranger/slueth/shield marshal might have been broken, we will never know. Now we are just waiting to find out if he will be nifty, or just cool. (was 3x charisma grit/panache/luck. Now we find out if it is supposed to be 2x or 1x.)
My skald idea with extra rage power giving 9 rage powers to his allies at level 12 and specializing in summon spells was going to be ridiculously broken :) (No firm word on that one yet, but Mark Siefer says he is pretty sure that is not supposed to work.)
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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A friend of mine just played at Level 2 for an Aasimar Bard that was made before the cut-off. The level 2 build was built towards increasing Inspire Courage, and going with Flagbearer/Banner of the Ancient Kings. The FCB change basically makes the concept not work, and he would very much like to change to an archery focus to try to salvage the character.
How does the FCB make the concept not work? If I recall correctly it takes it from +6 attack / damage to +5 attack / damage?
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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oh, I see them all the time. and even take them sometimes...Isn't it funny that no one ever sees an option they want to use as "overpowered or broken"?
"I didn't see it as overpowered or broken,"I saw some of the combos regarding the FCB bonuses could be taken to extremes. I don't think that any rule is overpowering by itself. The context matters.
Take Josephs Nature Oracle going mammoth rider: We talked about that combo a few years ago on the boards when mammoth rider came out. I avoided the combo because I felt that a HUGE pouncing tiger of doom that could be buffed by self spells from the cleric spell list was too overpowering for PFS. However, I was contemplating and probably would have used at some time in the future the same FCB bonus to make a pretty awesome horse.
I couldn't have done a tiger, because it was restricted to the mount list. I'm using an axe beak now, and am going to switch to a megaloceros (giant elk) when I go into Mammoth Rider.
So far, I've never seen her be overpowered, except perhaps for Shades of Ice I, when she pretty much single-handedly blocked the boss villains from fleeing for a couple of rounds.
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How does the FCB make the concept not work? If I recall correctly it takes it from +6 attack / damage to +5 attack / damage?A friend of mine just played at Level 2 for an Aasimar Bard that was made before the cut-off. The level 2 build was built towards increasing Inspire Courage, and going with Flagbearer/Banner of the Ancient Kings. The FCB change basically makes the concept not work, and he would very much like to change to an archery focus to try to salvage the character.
Stating that the build doesn't work is incorrect. Talking about inspire courage, the FCB allowed you to get to a +3 bonus @ lvl 8 and combined with the banner to a +4 bonus @ lvl 9. The new FCB no longer gives you a bump to +3 as this is overshadowed by the purchase of the banner and you can now get to a +4 @ lvl 12. However, without the FCB at all you can get to a +4 @ lvl 13. So overall, the FCB change killed any real benefit to using it and your points are probably better spent as points in a variety of knowledge skills. The FCB change also doesn't change the fact that the flag bearer/banner combo is great. I have the same style of bard and he still bards like a bard should bard.
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oh, I see them all the time. and even take them sometimes...Isn't it funny that no one ever sees an option they want to use as "overpowered or broken"?
"I didn't see it as overpowered or broken,"I saw some of the combos regarding the FCB bonuses could be taken to extremes. I don't think that any rule is overpowering by itself. The context matters.
Take Josephs Nature Oracle going mammoth rider: We talked about that combo a few years ago on the boards when mammoth rider came out. I avoided the combo because I felt that a HUGE pouncing tiger of doom that could be buffed by self spells from the cleric spell list was too overpowering for PFS. However, I was contemplating and probably would have used at some time in the future the same FCB bonus to make a pretty awesome horse.
I couldn't have done a tiger, because it was restricted to the mount list. I'm using an axe beak now, and am going to switch to a megaloceros (giant elk) when I go into Mammoth Rider.
So far, I've never seen her be overpowered, except perhaps for Shades of Ice I, when she pretty much single-handedly blocked the boss villains from fleeing for a couple of rounds.
Big cats are on the list for mammoth rider. So having a pouncing raking celestial huge tiger of doom buffed with enlarge person (making it gargantuan) and all the battle cleric standby's is pretty ridiculous. It's powerful enough with out an FCB bonus to lvl. Giving that tiger 5+ extra lvls of animal companion is beyond anything I wish to play in PFS.
However, I am not critiquing your choice. Like I said, the combo is only as broken as you make it. For some mounts I felt it was a great combo. I love the idea of the Elk though.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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It seems there's two different ways of looking at the issue. Let's consider the archetypal Aasimar Life Oracle:
One perspective says, "You can still do everything you did before, you're just not quite as good at it. Your oracle loses a d6 or two from her channeling, but it still works just fine."
The other perspective says, "If I'd known from the start I couldn't reach a certain threshold of power with this build, I would have picked a different class/race/point buy."
I'm sure a lot of people, like me, have more good ideas for characters than we have chances to play in PFS, especially at higher levels. So if I choose one of my "really good ideas" to actually build and play, but then it gets errata'd down to just a "pretty OK idea," I'm left with a character I never would have played in the first place, because it's now the worst of my "good ideas."
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I think that's part of the difference.
I don't play my most awesome ideas. I play my most conceptually interesting ideas.
For example, my Pic/Myst Strng/slth/marshall (above) got errataed hard.
I'm still gonna play them, because it means I can play wardens of the reborn forge with a level 7 shield marshal!
And even though my skald summoning waves of stirges that deal negative energy damage in addition to their con drain and that perma stagger the enemy that kills them is fundamentally brokenly powerful (even in it's current neutered form) I am still gonna play my protean summoner (who I am only hoping is actually going to be effective in about 6 levels from now, but who is seriously, awesomely, creepy.)
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I don't play my most awesome ideas. I play my most conceptually interesting ideas.
I agree, and I do the same thing. (I have shelved, for now, the barbarian/fighter build that does massive damage because I just can't find any "soul" in that character.)
Two characters of mine that were hit pretty hard with the ACG errata is the now-famous halfling Red Mantis Assassin wannabe and my Varisian tatoo artist/fortune teller arcanist. Neither are very powerful, both are flavorful.
But that goes with RainyDayNinja's point: I have plenty of other fun and flavorful ideas that I would play instead of the depowered RMA wannabe. I feel very lucky that the generous rebuild was allowed for her; I have rebuilt her into another idea I had on the back burner, emphasizing RainyDayNinja's point.
(My arcanist is even less powerful than she was before, but I'm still playing her and still enjoying it.)
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A friend of mine just played at Level 2 for an Aasimar Bard that was made before the cut-off. The level 2 build was built towards increasing Inspire Courage, and going with Flagbearer/Banner of the Ancient Kings. The FCB change basically makes the concept not work, and he would very much like to change to an archery focus to try to salvage the character.
Unless there was something else your friend was wrong. That concept works VERY well for non Aasimars (I speak from experience as I play this build). In fact, even for non Aasimars the build is arguably overpowered. And Aasimar (musetouched, mostly) is STILL arguably the best race for this build WITHOUT the FCB. This precise build is one of the reasons that I think the errata were a good thing, the drop in power is GOOD.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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I don't play my most awesome ideas. I play my most conceptually interesting ideas.
For some people, that's the same thing.
I abandoned my sword-and-board paladin a few years ago because I found him boring to play, with no interesting mechanics to toy with. Then when the ACG came out, I spent a lot of time poring over it and asking for advice, until I realized that I could add a lot to him with a level of Kata Master/Master of Many Styles. All of a sudden, my clunky full plate paladin could parry and riposte (with was a great fit with the paladin code of Shelyn, which forbids him from striking first), plus some other goodies, like a boost to all his saves and Snake Style as a bonus feat to protect against touch attacks. Suddenly, he was fun to play again!
But everything changed when the Fire Nation errata attacked. Now he lost his most iconic feature, having it replaced instead with a deed that he literally can't use because of his heavy armor. So what can I do? I could switch that level to Swashbuckler, but then half of the class features from that level would be completely wasted because of his low Dexterity and heavy armor. Or I could give up that fun, flavorful class feature I wanted and go back to being another cliché paladin. I could take the monk and swashbuckler levels separately, but then I'm spending a two-level dip on what I was able to get in one level before, which leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
I suppose I'm less concerned with rebuilding than I am the idea of what an errata is supposed to be. It's one thing for an errata to clear up ambiguous rules, correct typos, and so on. But the ACG and ARG errata went beyond that, and flat-out rewrote the rules, apparently only to make certain class features more exclusive. Is this going to be the expectation for errata going forward? Am I forever going to have to worry about building around any non-Core class features, because they might later be taken away altogether without notice?
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I suppose I'm less concerned with rebuilding than I am the idea of what an errata is supposed to be. It's one thing for an errata to clear up ambiguous rules, correct typos, and so on. But the ACG and ARG errata went beyond that, and flat-out rewrote the rules, apparently only to make certain class features more exclusive. Is this going to be the expectation for errata going forward? Am I forever going to have to worry about building around any non-Core class features, because they might later be taken away altogether without notice?
It looks as though if you do something that breaks your character completely you'll be able to rebuild it into something else.. so no harm no foul.