Which feads (talents) should I take as dual wielding rogue at the beginning?


Advice


Hello,
I am new to pathfinder and build a dual wielding human rogue.
I have read the guides and they say which feads (talents) are good
and which are not that good. But I didnt find which feads (talents)
to take first and in which order (when I want to optimise for
dual wielding shord swords).

So my question is: Which talents (feads) should I take at the first
levels in which order (I plan to play a human so I get a free fead
at level 1)?

Thanks,
Dieshe


Best feat: Two Weapon Fighting

Remove a lot of the penalty of using two weapons.

Tie for second best feat: Weapon Focus (short sword)

Use two short swords. This lets you get +1 attack on each weapon.

Tie for second best feat: Weapon Finesse

This lets you use DEX instead of STR for the attack. Two weapon users usually have high DEX, and not so great STR. This helps on the hitting side, but does nothing for damage.

However, there is a basic problem with two weapon fighting:
You only get to use it when you have full round attacks. If you have to move, you cannot use it. If you expect Sneak Attack to help, you must factor in that you won't get flanking regularly and that enemies try to get un-flanked.

It is things like this that make me think going two-weapon-fighting was a bad choice for my character. Yes, it is fun to make extra attacks, but when you cannot hit the broad side of a barn, the fun goes away.

Biggest advice is make the enemy come to you. They get one attack after closing, but you reply with a full round attack.

/cevah


If you are using traits one of them is River Rat that gives you +1 to damage with daggers that stacks with everything. Combine that with the Unchained Rogue who gets Weapon Finesse for free at level 1 and dex to damage at level 3, Two Weapon Fighting as level 1 feat and Weapon Focus daggers as your level 2 rogue talent by level 3 you have some reliable to hit and respectable damage even without sneak attack.


Tell us what are your ability scores and a bit of what you want to do with the rogue.

As a dual wielder rogue you NEED as many + to hit as possible. When you get a magic weapon, never enchant it with "flame" but instead just add +1, +2 etc, as hitting is your most important stat. The exception is a enchantment called Menacing, giving +4 instead of +2 on flanks.

Advice about twf as above and otherwise remember to get to flanking, use invisibility, high terrain, anything you can to get those + to hit so you can land your sneak attacks!

As for a great talent: Offensive Defense.


First thing you need to know is that there are two kinds of Rogue classes (both from Paizo). One published in the Core Rule Book and the other one came out more recently in a book called Pathfinder Unchained. The Rogue in Pathfinder Unchained (referred to as the unchained rogue) is plainly better than the one in the CRB. The one in the CRB is considered under powered.

Here is a link to the Unchained Rogue.

As you can see there, you gain "Finesse Training" which grants you the feat "Weapon Finesse" for free at level 1.
And as Cevah noted, Weapon Focus and Two Weapon Fighting are both good feats.

However, there's also a rogue talent (that you pick at level 2) called "Weapon Training" that grants the Weapon Focus feat, which means that you may want to put one of those two feats at level 1 on something else, as you can gain Weapon Focus at level 2 as well via a rogue talent (rogue talents are considered to be not as strong as feats so trading one for a feat is a nice idea). Or if you pick the feat at level 1, you can spend that rogue talant on something else, like the Minor Magic talent (the unchained version of that talent is much better than the regular one).


Well you could easily get your starting to-hits early on:

1st level: Two weapon Fighting
2nd level: Rogue Talent: Weapon Focus: Dagger ( +1 to daggers )
3rd level: Deific Obedience: Pharasma ( +2 to daggers )

By then you have +5 to hit before your attribute modifiers, and if you are a unchained rogue you just go dex to at least 16, so you get +3 and end up with +8 on a single attack, or +6 on both of your attacks.

And by level 3 you should have masterwork or +1 weapons at least so, you are back to +7/+7.

Silver Crusade

Best advice I can give.

Pick up Improved two weapon feint Asap.


SRD:

Improved Two Weapon Feint wrote:

Prerequisite: Dex 17, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: While using Two-Weapon Fighting to make melee attacks, you can forgo your first primary-hand melee attack to make a Bluff check to feint an opponent. If you successfully feint, that opponent is denied his Dexterity bonus to AC until the end of your turn.

You cannot get Improved Two-Weapon Fighting until BAB 6 at level 8. You cannot get it via a trick. Therefore, you cannot get it until level 9. Improved Two Weapon Feint is also not available via a trick, so it needs another feat. That means level 11.

The benefit is trading a full BAB attack for a chance to deny dex on the opponent for the rest of your attacks. Given the classes lack of BAB plusses, and the TWF penalty, those remaining hits will still have a hard time hitting. It does help getting sneak attack damage. Perhaps someone can do the DPR calculation.

Either way, this is a mid to high level option, and the OP want the low level choice.

/cevah


Is this character for PFS? A particular module? A home brew campaign? Different tactics are better at different points in your character's career.

Do you want to dual wield short swords because you think it will work well or for independent aesthetic reasons? As others have posted, daggers are probably a better option if you're going for two weapon fighting. This is mostly because of Deific Obedience to Pharasma giving you +2 to hit with daggers.

As for feats and such, what you really want to focus on as a rogue are (1) hitting people, and (2) getting sneak attack damage. Avoid any options that lower your to-hit (i.e. Piranha Strike). Dracoknight has the numbers up above for your best choices.

The iconic rogue image in a lot of people's minds is the whirlwind of flashing attacks that all miss... don't be that guy.

Silver Crusade

Cevah wrote:

SRD:

Improved Two Weapon Feint wrote:

Prerequisite: Dex 17, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: While using Two-Weapon Fighting to make melee attacks, you can forgo your first primary-hand melee attack to make a Bluff check to feint an opponent. If you successfully feint, that opponent is denied his Dexterity bonus to AC until the end of your turn.

You cannot get Improved Two-Weapon Fighting until BAB 6 at level 8. You cannot get it via a trick. Therefore, you cannot get it until level 9. Improved Two Weapon Feint is also not available via a trick, so it needs another feat. That means level 11.

The benefit is trading a full BAB attack for a chance to deny dex on the opponent for the rest of your attacks. Given the classes lack of BAB plusses, and the TWF penalty, those remaining hits will still have a hard time hitting. It does help getting sneak attack damage. Perhaps someone can do the DPR calculation.

Either way, this is a mid to high level option, and the OP want the low level choice.

/cevah

Take the "feat" to grab at 10.

Early on, just take feats you like

Weapon focus/TWF/improved TWF are the basis of course. When I build a combat rogue, they often look like this-

I'll assume you want low-light/Dark vision so no human feat.

1- Iron will
2- weapon focus -light weapon of choice-
3- TWF (combat trick)
5- combat expertise
6- Improved TwF
7- W/e. Potentially pick up a rogue talent.
9- w/e I like improved fient
10- improved Two weapon fient.


I forget that option, because the archetype I have has Invisible Blade, which is the go-to-choice for 10th level.

/cevah

Silver Crusade

Well if you're playing ninja then OBVIOUSLY.

Silver Crusade

Also, another dandy investment would be minor/major magic. Unchained rogue versions are much better. At level 10 you get vanish 5/day.


I'm not a ninja. I'm a merchant.

Actually, the rogue's vanish SLA is capped at 5 rounds, but the ninja's is not capped. And with Invisible Blade, becomes greater invisibility. Match that, URogue.

/cevah


Not sure if the Unchained Rogue works with it, but the Knife Master archetype works great for all the attacks you'll get with TWF. Bigger sneak die with the dagger (especially nice if you aren't Unchained or using Agile enchantment), kerambit, kukri, punching daggers, starknife, or swordbreaker dagger. Best if you have a reliable flanking buddy.


Dieshe wrote:

Hello,

I am new to pathfinder and build a dual wielding human rogue.
I have read the guides and they say which feads (talents) are good
and which are not that good. But I didnt find which feads (talents)
to take first and in which order (when I want to optimise for
dual wielding shord swords).

So my question is: Which talents (feads) should I take at the first
levels in which order (I plan to play a human so I get a free fead
at level 1)?

Thanks,
Dieshe

I have some questions to ask you before I can give you a good answer.

Is your Rogue going to be an Unchained Rogue?

Which Feats and Talents did you see that turn you on the most?

Tell me more about what do you want your Rogue to be like: a back-ally thug like Lucco Brazzi in the Godfather? A fast-talking promoter like Nathan Detroit in Guys and Dolls? A Grave Robber like Indiana Jones? Or a whispering Spectre of Death like Cottonmouth in Kill Bill Volume 1?

I can say for starters that I have been excited by Unchained Rogues' Dex-to-Damage, and I really like bringing out the most of Sneak Attack with Dirty Tricks or maybe Sap Adept Feats. But you can't use Sap Feats if you have your heart set on Short Swords.

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