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So my GM and I have run into a point of contention amongst each other. He's convinced I'm overpowered. So here's the basic stats I'm working off of with 4d6 drop the lowest (GM oversaw all player rolls):
Dual Path Guardian-Marshal 3
Str 18
Dex 14
Con 16
Int 14
Wis 16
Cha 20 (22 with Headband of Alluring Charisma)
We're in Wrath of the Righteous in book 3 and...
This means at it's 1-2 encounters before an eight hour rest. I've been able to jack up my AC to 28 with Shield Focus, Amulet of Natural Armor +2, and Ring of Protection.
To give an idea of the rest of the party everyone is level 9 and all Tier 3 Mythics and they are:
Paladin of Iomedae (Myself)
Fighter (Champion)
Rogue-Sniper (Trickster)
Cleric of Sarenrae (Hierophant)
Gunslinger (Trickster)
Barbarian (Dual Path Champion-Guardian)
Now the GM is concerned that I'm outshining the rest of the party. Myself and the Rogue have worked out a 1-2 punch combo (I'm going to use damage averages) wherein I use Flames of Entanglement and Clarion Call in conjunction with Smite Evil and Vital Strike (Mythic). So I average 39 (4.5+6+9 multiplied by 2 since Smite doesn't count as precision damage per RAW) with this my rotation is Vital Smite (as I've come to call it) burning a mythic for Clarion Call to give everyone within 30ft my Smite and then burning another Mythic to use Amazing Initiative for another hit of 19.5 damage for a total of 58.5 (76.5 v Evil Dragons, Outsiders, and Undead)with an alpha strike. After that I burn a third Mythic Point to activate Decisive Strike which I typically give to the Rogue. The Flames of Entanglement flat-foot a target for at least one round even if they make it so the Rogue is doing 1d8(4.5)+6+9+5d6(17.5) for an average of 37 points of damage as well.
This typically sets the Rogue up for his rotation to sneak attack with glee. Especially since he has a Legendary Item Longbow which has two Scorching Rays prepared so his own Alpha consists of Scorching Ray+Sneak Attack due to flat-footed and Amazing Initiative for a second Sneak Attack and then Surprise Strike for a total of 8d6(28)+5d6 (17.5), 1d8(4.5)+6+5d6(17.5)+9, and 1d8(4.5)+6+5d6(17.5)+9 for a total average of 119.5. He complained (correctly) that against a Woundwyrm we did more than 200 points of damage between us.
We didn't intend this, this happened ad hoc (I literally didn't learn about Fires of Entanglement until last night and he'd forgotten about every spell he gave his bow until last night), we've been playing the campaign for almost a year now and the Rogue only began a couple months ago. Even our Gunslinger is getting in on the action as she gives up her damage to flat-foot enemies all the time.
Now my argument is that due to the specific situation we're in (again 1-2 encounters/in-game day) we can afford to burn Mythic Points and Smites like they're going out of style, but I know that in this campaign that's set to change soon. It's also 1-2 monsters per encounter erring towards 1. Both myself and the Rogue are of the opinion it's the way it is because we're paying more attention to how the rules work than most of the group.
His argument (which is fair) is that we only run into evil creatures in this campaign simply due to where it's set (not entirely true, since we fought some elementals and if it weren't for Divine Grace and my AC I'd have been totally useless as I was doing 2-9 points of damage per round. His biggest concern is how I outshine the Fighter and the Barbarian. The Barbarian I don't feel is a fair comparison because he's being played by an 11-year old who doesn't fully grasp the rules, for example in the Staunton Vhane fight he tried to imitate me by charging past the half-fiend minotaurs that I only made it past because of a high AC (26 at the time), he was running in at around 40hp an AC around 20-ish and unluckily got critted by both's AoO. The Fighter is having problems because of her will save, she's been mind controlled at least half a dozen times and locked down entirely due to insanity inducing effects even more, in the past three weeks we've had eight encounters and she's done 0 damage due to it; now I've mentioned to the GM that it's a matter of how the rest of the party spends their money when they have the chance, rather than buying a Cracked Amber Spindle Ioun Stone or a better Cloak of Resistance they're spending it on their weapons, which is a valid choice but does still leave their vulnerabilities unaddressed. Her average hit is 1d12(6.5)+11 and averaging 35 with a Vital Strike with the same Amazing Initiative and Champion's Strike options open to her, so she has a potential of 70 points with her own Alpha. Another thing she's not taking advantage of is her Shield Proficiencies, she's a two-handed Fighter but she could still use a buckler and hasn't taken that option.
That probably sums up my issue with being accused of being overpowered, yes, my character is especially suited to the campaign I'm in, but the other players have options available to them to utilize which they don't and myself and the Rogue do. Am I right? Wrong? Am I overpowered or am I just utilizing my options better? If you think I'm right, what can I do to convince my GM. If you think I'm wrong, please help me understand his argument better.
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It's not that you're PC is overpowered; a paladin in WotR is going to dominate regardless and adding on Mythic rules just compounds that. To be honest... It doesn't sound like you're doing nearly as much damage as you could be. This appears to be more of a player knowledge thing, perhaps you could make some suggestions to the other players in your group on how to shore up their weaknesses?
Mythic rules can be extremely powerful, doubly so if the GM allows only 1-2 encounters per day! This allows PCs the ability to dump massive amounts of damage out per encounter without any concern of long term survivability. That is the main issue at hand.
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Firstly: I'd have to ask what you think overpowered is. From your description of the situation - you are managing to be significantly stronger than the rest of your party. Which, in a co-operative game, would be the closest you can get conceptually to being overpowered, the fact that the options you have are as present to your fellow players as they are to you, does not mean that the disparity in power is non-existent.
A second line that I feel a need to follow with, however: This doesn't make you either a terrible person, or mean you should leave the table. But you should (from my perspective) use what appears to be an evidently greater strength with the rules and mechanics to help your players. Or ask your GM to - since their options to deal with the disparity are larger (and contain more subtle options).
Last note: Mythic is a bit of a mess anyway in that it can break very easily. Unsurprising to see you have. Also, while you made those rolls fairly - they are very high.
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You're not Overpowered. Well, you are, but that's because you're Mythic. Mythic breaks everything.
The problem is the AP. Wrath of the Righteous, by all accounts, is an incredibly poorly designed AP as far as power level goes. From what I've heard, it's easy even compared to other APs.
So you're far more high powered than any PC should normally be...in an AP that even normal, non-Mythic characters can just kind of wreck without breaking a sweat.
And THEN your party is 6 people (APs are designed for 4, so you have a super easy AP, with high powered characters, whose APL is +1 because they have extra people)
Your Gm should probably be re-writing most of the encounters to fit your Mythic stature.
That combined with the fact that one of your party mates is a Rogue (a weak class), one of your party mates is a Fighter (a weak class), one of your party mates is a Gunslinger ( a Fighter with a few more toys), one of your party mates is a tactically challenged Barbarian (a good class, but requires decent system mastery to handle, which he doesn't have), and you're a Paladin who actually knows what he's doing (pretty stronk class + decent system mastery = Miles better than the rest of the group) makes this look even worse, since what's happening is you're rolling over weak encounters your teammates would also be rolling over if they could build a decent character and play them well, but they aren't so you look even better by comparison.
I'd try to see what you can do to help out the Barbarian and the Fighter, since it seems as though the Rogue and Gunslinger have at least built their characters to their strengths. Ask them if they want your help building their characters, and if the Gm would allow them a re-build to tweak them a bit higher, perhaps.
There's also, of course, the problem of the Three Beatsticks, since you, the Fighter, and the barbarian fill the same role: Kill s*~% with lightning speed in melee combat...except of course you're a Paladin. You can tank like a mofo, and the Fighter can't (and the barbarian isn't built to do so). SO you have comparable or better offense, and way better saves and AC and self-healing.
TL;DR: It's a perfect storm of shenannery that makes this situation what it is, not just you.
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As a fellow WotR GM, this is going to happen.
Heck, I put my 3-player party at 15 point buy, they have no full casters, and they're still annihilating things.
As others have said, you're not even aggressively optimizing and you're still crushing it, as any paladin would do in WotR. Send your GM around and I'll see if I can't offer him some aid.
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So of the few and great responses I've gotten the main issue seems to be lack of system knowledge and a potential rebuild. I'm not really familiar with Barbarian all that much (I've been playing for 3.x/Pathfinder for 15yrs now but never played a Barbarian) but I'm going to check some optimization guides on it, Fighter's not that hard to optimize. Failing that are there any other classes you guys would suggest that are easier for the Barbarian to handle that would compliment the party? This would be the second time we did a rebuild for him; the first time he played a druid which I advised the GM to suggest something a little less complicated.
As others have said, you're not even aggressively optimizing and you're still crushing it, as any paladin would do in WotR. Send your GM around and I'll see if I can't offer him some aid.
Will do, in conjunction with trying a rebuild.
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I can think of a few things that might aid balance: (apologies if this turns out a bit TL;DR)
GM should be increasing the CR of an encounter (add levels, spells, extra HP or a cordon of summoned, or actual, allies, or more neutral foes) to match CR of PCs.
How bad are the other PCs stats? (if they rolled really badly, or less than you get for 15+ point buy - average of 12-13 for each stat?), then after a second chance to roll another set of 6 - not individual abilities though - and if that is also poor, it might be an idea to settle for the point buy instead...
(I know some people who mistrust their own rolling skills so they prefer to point-buy)
Also, the GM could change some of the loot to better shore up weaknesses in the party (Will re-roll items may be of use), or Iron Will feat, etc. or a weapon only a Barbarian can use...
Your Barbarian might give the Demoralizing route a try? i.e., there should be a lessening of the Damage Per Round being the only measure by which a character contributes to a party; I know most of PF is about the fights BUT: spell selection (buffs/penalties), tactics and co-operation between players to make each character the best it can be (without too much cheese) should be emphasized?
Ok, so you are probably the Face of the party as well given the CHA, but it's not just about damage and who is the best leader; there should be opportunities for the other characters to roll on skills your PC doesn't have (Paladins don't get many Class Skills, and you have a couple more points to spend than the average Paladin, but Barbarian should be all over Survival (tracking and cooking), Climb, Swim, and Know(Nature) for example)...
.... and also the Fighter Player may come up with an idea and pass it on to a character who might have thought of it...
There's also the possibility the GM is worried if they increase the CR by adding extras to the fights, the other PCs will just get steamrollered. The GM also needs to use tactics in their encounters (maybe they should be "engineering" an encounter whereby your PC gets swarmed by "things obsessed with shiny Paladin" that it's advantageous to the other PCs and they can help you for a change. {for example...})
In summary, I'd emphasize that it is a Team Game and you should all hopefully be having fun?, however, if you are the Star Quarterback the GM/other players can't just ask you to Not Be One? Your team should give support in other ways? But you should help them to help you as well?
oh, and,
Cleric should also be looking for "I can still heal for X rounds after Death" Mythic stuff...
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Barbarian is simple. Charge at guy, smash guy, guy dies.
If you want to maximize his power tell him to take Beast Totem (Lesser and Greater as well) to make him a Pounce machine, and Superstition for saves and he's golden.
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Throw some Invulnerable Rager on him too - if you want to play fast and loose with your own life, that's how you do it. The Improved Damage Reduction rage power would go well with that, and Superstition will keep him safe.
I would probably argue against Beast Totem in this case, though - it's too powerful. It'll exacerbate the problems your GM is already having.
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Mythic Vital Strike is an option.
Beast Totem IS the weaker choice.
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As others have noted, WotR is already a bit cakewalky as written. I'm really looking forward to learning more about things from the GM's side - especially what he's doing to balance out six mythic characters with 4d6-drop-lowest.
If you want, send him this. It's my half-finished Campaign Journal. That should give him an idea of what I've been up to, thus far.
He might also be interested in this product, which offers some suggestions for patching Mythic's biggest broken spots.
How bad are the other PCs stats? (if they rolled really badly, or less than you get for 15+ point buy - average of 12-13 for each stat?), then after a second chance to roll another set of 6 - not individual abilities though - and if that is also poor, it might be an idea to settle for the point buy instead...
(I know some people who mistrust their own rolling skills so they prefer to point-buy)
Everybody got pretty good rolls, everyone easily has a 20+ stat (the Cleric is rolling around with a 26 Wisdom at the extreme end), the lowest stat in the entire group is the Rogue with a Charisma of 8.
Ok, so you are probably the Face of the party as well given the CHA, but it's not just about damage and who is the best leader; there should be opportunities for the other characters to roll on skills your PC doesn't have (Paladins don't get many Class Skills, and you have a couple more points to spend than the average Paladin, but Barbarian should be all over Survival (tracking and cooking), Climb, Swim, and Know(Nature) for example)...
.... and also the Fighter Player may come up with an idea and pass it on to a character who might have thought of it...
I'm definitely the face of the party and the de-facto leader.
Cleric should also be looking for "I can still heal for X rounds after Death" Mythic stuff...
Cleric isn't concerned with being outshone, he's as far as I'm concerned our MVP. He's definitely our Healer but he's also the one that typically ends any big fight with Mythic Holy Smite, and can't forget his Dismissals they saved me during the elemental fight we had. He's also got ranged touch for heals and buffs, +50% from heals, and can use mythic to recall spells.
Going to try and get him in touch with you Kalindlara.
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I believe that instead of asking these questions in this topic yourself (it was a good call though), the GM should be the one consulting himself with other people. Some of the posters above offered additional aid already with the AP itself.
To answer your initial question - it's hard to define being overpowered if you are playing by Mythic rules. I never used those rules, but to me, it seemed normal to a degree. The person to blame is your GM who gave you too much on game start probably. This happens all too often really. I did the same mistake myself.
Also a note, Vital Strike doubles weapon dice only, not the total damage output. There might be something changed in how it works on Mythic Rules though, in which case, feel free to ignore this part of text.
Adam
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the path as written won't challenge a good mythic part much. Here our game died in that book as my buddy GM has some health issues but have your GM look at my bloodrager using mythic vital strike. We had a character with Flag bearer in the group and those numbers are included in my stat block. You are right where a paladin should be. Now if you were mythic vital striking as a paladin duel path into trickster for mirror dodge and then you would be overpowered, but as others say if he is running the book as is I would expect much of a challenge.
We used 24 point buy I think and we couldn't dump a stat. My stat line has the +2size bonus from Alter Self figured in as it last 19mins a casting from the scale and it was always cast before things started getting sketchy.
I mean on a crit I was hitting for 222+10d6 and could do two vital strikes a round by spending mythic power. Mythic is a bit broken as it is.
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I believe that instead of asking these questions in this topic yourself (it was a good call though), the GM should be the one consulting himself with other people. Some of the posters above offered additional aid already with the AP itself.
To answer your initial question - it's hard to define being overpowered if you are playing by Mythic rules. I never used those rules, but to me, it seemed normal to a degree. The person to blame is your GM who gave you too much on game start probably. This happens all too often really. I did the same mistake myself.
Also a note, Vital Strike doubles weapon dice only, not the total damage output. There might be something changed in how it works on Mythic Rules though, in which case, feel free to ignore this part of text.
Adam
Mythic Vital Strike combines all the damage from your multiple attacks into one single attack. It's an extremely powerful feat for a dedicated melee type.
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Mythic Vital Strike combines all the damage from your multiple attacks into one single attack. It's an extremely powerful feat for a dedicated melee type.I believe that instead of asking these questions in this topic yourself (it was a good call though), the GM should be the one consulting himself with other people. Some of the posters above offered additional aid already with the AP itself.
To answer your initial question - it's hard to define being overpowered if you are playing by Mythic rules. I never used those rules, but to me, it seemed normal to a degree. The person to blame is your GM who gave you too much on game start probably. This happens all too often really. I did the same mistake myself.
Also a note, Vital Strike doubles weapon dice only, not the total damage output. There might be something changed in how it works on Mythic Rules though, in which case, feel free to ignore this part of text.
Adam
Especially when you can also get two standard actions in a round.
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If all else fails, then you can try convincing your GM to remove alignments, as in PF Unchained (makes the Paladin less overpowered, and allows Monk/Barbarian, Monk/Bard and Monk/Druid multiclassing).
Also, you could try to convince him to let everybody (except you) make a Gestalt character, or if you really need to, introduce Mythic Flaws to your character to offset his mythic power (such as going into a rage (minus the increase to Strength and Con) or becoming confused upon suffering a critical hit or rolling a Nat 1)
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It is my personal belief that Paladins don't need mythic tiers, as the class is already overpowered without it:-)Well you can't say something like that and not elaborate on why you feel it's the case. :p
It's a fairly common opinion among people who are mostly comparing them to Fighters, Monks, etc. Paladins get so many powers that it's hard to remember them all. Smite Evil and free Detect Evil and a boost to saving throws that's so good they had to errata it out as a feat for anyone else and immunity to fear and the ability to heal themselves as a swift action (plus cure conditions at the same time) and channel energy as good as a cleric's and a choice of a full animal companion or the ability to power up their weapon and spellcasting and there's probably a few more that I've forgotten.
Better GM'ing solves all of this. Up the CR. WOTR is only as broken as your GM allows it to be.
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So a good GM should be able to challenge the group. The difficult part is when one player is significantly better than others to the extent that now in order to challenge one player, he risks throwing too much to the party at large.
Your stats are good. Your character seems good, and you're playing Mythic. If other people are built badly, then maybe you're overpowered by comparison?
Also, putting yourself in the GM's shoes, if you have a high threat melee combatant who is really hard to kill, charges into the combat and deals a lot of damage... when the GM hasn't scaled the encounter, this seems like he might feel stuff just melts and he can't even challenge you. If the above (characters being at different power levels) isn't true, then he needs to scale better.
That's how my local GM felt when a Vigilante joined our table.
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I like that your group is doing what it should when they have a rogue: setting them up to deliver copious amounts of sneak attack damage. Under such circumstances a rogue is not a weak class.
WotR is pretty weaksauce in the same way that Council of Thieves is for exactly the same reason: both were developed in parallel with the rules set they were designed to be released with. Mythic rules and the PFRPG CRB respectively.
For your GM, the obvious question is: " Why did you not read the forward to Chapter 1? " Between that and the players' guide it makes abundantly clear that they wrote WotR explicitly to have paladins, especially paladins of Iomedae, *really* shine.
Regarding Mythic Vital Strike ... for me, that's the way the baseline set of feats should work. The entire concept of them before pre-publication nerfing was to provide a way to make iterative attacks do something other than "wiff, wiff, wiff some more". It is only when Mythic's amazing initiative comes online that it gets out of hand.
Once your group slogs through the slow, boring parts of Chapters 2 and 3, WotR gets a lot more exciting. With judicious help from the GM.
As others have mentioned, Mythic Vital Strike is your big issue.
The rest of your character is fine.
That's how my local GM felt when a Vigilante joined our table.So a good GM should be able to challenge the group. The difficult part is when one player is significantly better than others to the extent that now in order to challenge one player, he risks throwing too much to the party at large.
Your stats are good. Your character seems good, and you're playing Mythic. If other people are built badly, then maybe you're overpowered by comparison?
Also, putting yourself in the GM's shoes, if you have a high threat melee combatant who is really hard to kill, charges into the combat and deals a lot of damage... when the GM hasn't scaled the encounter, this seems like he might feel stuff just melts and he can't even challenge you. If the above (characters being at different power levels) isn't true, then he needs to scale better.
This is depressing to read. If that GM ever saw a Druid or god forbid a Sylvan Razmiran Priest Sorcerer...
On the Paladins are OP thing. Ya, no. Paladins are better situated in Pathfinder then other martials (outside bad GMs), but they are no full casters. Here's some general questions to ask to determine if something OP:
If the class has to ask "How can I solve this problem?" - Not OP.
If the class has to ask "Which one of many methods to solve this problem is most efficient?" - OP.
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I'm playing in a Wrath of the Righteous Campaign too.
As a Gestalt Paladin/Bloodrager. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
In addition to the lack of balance/challenge due to the Mythic Rules, Paladins (and any anti-demon focused class) have a lot of other things going for them in this AP (there are some fun RP challenges, though!).
You've got multiple magic items that specifically strengthen the traditional sword-and-board paladin.
As an earlier post said, a non-mythic paladin could probably do fairly well by himself in the AP; it's hard to not be (over)powerful when you're getting demigod powers on top of that.
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PFRPG Translation Guide:
"This is the OP." = "My GM has no idea how to adjust encounters."
"But the other players aren't powerful enough to keep up." = "Our party has no idea how to work together."