Upgradable items only on Chronicle sheets

[James Risner]

There are a number of items that are "as Amulet of Natural Armor +1" but have a different name or slot. These are only valid if you have a chronicle sheet. May players upgrade these as they can the Amulet of Natural Armor? Or not because the item only comes in the one form?

Some of these say "Can't be upgraded" and the rest do not.

I'm assuming the ones that do not say they can't be upgrade, may be upgraded.

[Ragoz]

As long as it isn't a named item and doesn't say it can't be upgraded I would think you can upgrade it.

[TetsujinOni]

I'd take the other reading: if it's a reslotted and recosted item, I'd assume it to not have the upgrade path of the other-slotted, other-costed item.

I.e. a vest of resistance +2 reslotted cloak of resistance +2 doesn't really have a vest of resistance +3 / +4 / +5 to upgrade to.

[Ragoz]

If it acts 'as Amulet of Natural Armor' wouldn't you just use its upgrade path though? I feel like it might.

[Jessex]

No. There actually has to be the other item listed somewhere for it to be upgraded into. Since there is no vest of resistance +3 anywhere then you can't upgrade a vest of resistance +2 into one.

[TomG]

Jessex wrote:

No. There actually has to be the other item listed somewhere for it to be upgraded into. Since there is no vest of resistance +3 anywhere then you can't upgrade a vest of resistance +2 into one.

As long as the price for upgrading is clear, and it's not a Named Item (without a +n bonus in the Name), I don't see why it shouldn't be upgradable. It would be illogical to publish an item of a particular type for each slot (boots of resistance +1, headband of resistance +1, gloves of resistance +1, etc.) and the crafting rules clearly contemplate this sort of mashup.

For example, "Adamantium breastplate +5" isn't specifically listed anywhere either, but is calculated from tables with known crafting rules, and upgraded to from "Adamantium breastplate +4".

So, not being aware of a specific ruling on the matter, I'm inclined to disagree with your assessment.

[James Risner]

Ok, examples:

1) funny headdress as amulet of natural armor +2.
Can't upgrade because there is no funny headdress +4?

2) lucky pot as bag of holding III.
Can't upgrade necause no lucky pot IV?

3) lucky charm I as amulet of natural armor +2
There is a lucky charm II so this can be upgraded because it didn't say you couldn't? Fame must allow.

4) bag of holding II
Can be upgraded to bag of holding III if you have fame.

[Kigvan]

James Risner wrote:

Ok, examples:

1) funny headdress as amulet of natural armor +2.
Can't upgrade because there is no funny headdress +4?

2) lucky pot as bag of holding III.
Can't upgrade necause no lucky pot IV?

3) lucky charm I as amulet of natural armor +2
There is a lucky charm II so this can be upgraded because it didn't say you couldn't? Fame must allow.

4) bag of holding II
Can be upgraded to bag of holding III if you have fame.

At least in PFS the bag of holding can't be upgraded anyway. Only items with a +x can be upgraded from one to the other. No upgrading lesser to greater or other types of things.

[Jessex]

TomG wrote:

Jessex wrote:

No. There actually has to be the other item listed somewhere for it to be upgraded into. Since there is no vest of resistance +3 anywhere then you can't upgrade a vest of resistance +2 into one.

As long as the price for upgrading is clear, and it's not a Named Item (without a +n bonus in the Name), I don't see why it shouldn't be upgradable.

Because RAW. You can upgrade a cloak of resistance +2 to a cloak of resistance +3 because the price for both are listed in the CRB. But a chronicle sheet, unless it explicitly says something more, just lets you buy an item exactly as is. When the item can be upgraded the item has included the rules text to tell you how.

[TomG]

Jessex wrote:

TomG wrote:

As long as the price for upgrading is clear, and it's not a Named Item (without a +n bonus in the Name), I don't see why it shouldn't be upgradable.

Because RAW. You can upgrade a cloak of resistance +2 to a cloak of resistance +3 because the price for both are listed in the CRB. But a chronicle sheet, unless it explicitly says something more, just lets you buy an item exactly as is. When the item can be upgraded the item has included the rules text to tell you how.

Two replies:

1) RAW (the Chronicles) say (e.g.) "... as Amulet of Natural Armor +1" (IIRC; see EDIT below), so I would again argue that yes, it *is* listed in CRB, under its "alias". (The price is the same no the chronicles as for the vanilla version.)

2) You didn't address my earlier claim, suggesting that applying your argument to weapons and armor would result in pretty much every weapon or armor being not upgradable.

Again, the upgrade path is clear. The pricing is not in question. Is explicitly a "+n" item.

Seems upgrades are permitted.

EDIT: To choose a chronicle as an example (Scenario 34: Encounter at the Drowing Stones), the items are listed as "amulet of natural armor +1 (crocodile skull headdress)". The wording, RAW, still seems upgradable to me.

[TomG]

Marked OP as a FAQ candidate. I'd love to see a Paizo ruling on this, either way.

[Wraith235]

another interesting one is Dermal Armor +1 (which functions as an amult of natural armor) I believe this is a more clear cut no ... but still something to consider since there IS a listed price for it .. can it be upgraded

[Jessex]

TomG wrote:

Jessex wrote:

TomG wrote:

As long as the price for upgrading is clear, and it's not a Named Item (without a +n bonus in the Name), I don't see why it shouldn't be upgradable.

Because RAW. You can upgrade a cloak of resistance +2 to a cloak of resistance +3 because the price for both are listed in the CRB. But a chronicle sheet, unless it explicitly says something more, just lets you buy an item exactly as is. When the item can be upgraded the item has included the rules text to tell you how.

Two replies:

1) RAW (the Chronicles) say (e.g.) "... as Amulet of Natural Armor +1" (IIRC; see EDIT below), so I would again argue that yes, it *is* listed in CRB, under its "alias". (The price is the same no the chronicles as for the vanilla version.)

2) You didn't address my earlier claim, suggesting that applying your argument to weapons and armor would result in pretty much every weapon or armor being not upgradable.

Again, the upgrade path is clear. The pricing is not in question. Is explicitly a "+n" item.

Seems upgrades are permitted.

EDIT: To choose a chronicle as an example (Scenario 34: Encounter at the Drowing Stones), the items are listed as "amulet of natural armor +1 (crocodile skull headdress)". The wording, RAW, still seems upgradable to me.

Choosing a 3.5 scenario is pretty pointless. Those old chronicles have all kinds of wonky stuff on them. I know that campaign management ruled that all items that appear on those old chronicles that are now a different item have to be bought as the standard Pathfinder item. That ruling may apply to things like these as well.

But you can go read newer chronicles and there are ones that include new magic items that can be upgraded and include the details of how and others where there is no such detail and the ruling has always been that there is no upgrade allowed.

Your earlier claim is simply an intentional misrepresentation of my statement. It was not worth discussing. The guide and the FAQ on upgrading both make clear that basic magic weapons and armors can be upgraded and how it is done.

[TomG]

Jessex wrote:

I know that campaign management ruled that all items that appear on those old chronicles that are now a different item have to be bought as the standard Pathfinder item. That ruling may apply to things like these as well.

I've spent a good deal of time searching for rulings on the issue. I don't see it in the FAQ or PF RP Guild Guide (which says very little about upgrades).

Perhaps my Google-fu is weak. If you could point me to the rulings you've found, I'd appreciate it.

[Paz]

TomG wrote:

If you could point me to the rulings you've found, I'd appreciate it.

Here you go (Joshua J. Frost was the campaign coordinator at that time).

Confirmation from Mike Brock that the ruling still stood under his leadership.

[TomG]

Thanks, Paz. The link from Mike Brock answers my question re older scenarios. (As there are officially no oddly slotted items from those scenarios and we use the "regular" items instead, the upgrade question is moot in those cases.)

I don't know whether OP's question stems from an older scenario or not, ... Are there more recent scenarios with differently slotted variant items?

[Gamerskum]

Yes there is an amulet that functions as a head band of intellect but it specifically called out how and when it can be upgraded.