So if I am reading this correctly, it sounds like we will be going back to a player guide that is closer to the ones we saw for RotRL and CotCT?
If this is the case, then I am 100% behind this.
I really like being able to give my players a handout that they can use to read up on the area, come up with character ideas and most importantly hold onto through out the path.
I was very happy purchasing the 5 pack of these books for this purpose. With the change to the larger book that is really only partially a players guide, I can't really justify purchasing one per player. (In this case I will probably create my own players guide for SD).
Anyway, I look forward to seeing what you come up with.
My only suggestion would be keep focused on player information. Things like common rumors with a DC 10 check don't really work since everyone reads them (Maybe they all took 10 on gather info checks).
Sean Mahoney
AP = pre-made campaign set in Golarion. This is the 96 page product.
Companion = Booklet for players and GMs interested in Golarion. Usually has a fair amount of crunch. This is the 32 page product.
Chronicles = Booklet about Golarion itself, skewed toward the GM. Usually has a fair amount of flavor, with about 1/3 crunch or less. This is the 64 page product.
Modules = adventures set in Golarion. 32 pages
Player's Guides = short, free PDFs that players use to get ready for an AP. 4 to 6 pages
Perfectly clear. Thanks.
Dimitris
I'll just let this go for now.
Thanks!
Sigh. Clear to some perhaps. Not all of us have Decipher Ramblings memorized today. ;)
Or Read English. ;)
Chief Technical Officer
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...it's yet another pain-in-the-youknowwhere and yet another barrier for those who put the APs in different campaign settings.I'm afraid I don't see how a separate, optional product is any sort of barrier to you running an AP in a world other than Golarion. Its existence doesn't make it any more difficult for you to set an AP in a different world.
Not only does it not make it more difficult, it actually makes it easier—if you're not beginning the AP in Cheliax, or in a city strongly based on Cheliax, then neither you nor your players need this book. You will want the player information PDF James mentioned, though.
If you are beginning the AP in Cheliax, or a city strongly based on Cheliax, you and your players will benefit from (but not actually require) the information in this book, as well as the PDF.
I think I like this a lot!
The Companions will still have traits, right? Not the Campaign traits, but there will be Regional, Religious and Racial traits, maybe some Basic ones, too?
I assume so. The Cheliax book has traits.
I assume so. The Cheliax book has traits.
Just incase there was any doubt, more character traits = good.
Yes, the thread on the Osirion book beat that into my head, thank you, so much that I had Josh go back and write traits for his (finished months ago) Taldor book just to make sure it had some. :)
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Creative Director
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Yes, the thread on the Osirion book beat that into my head, thank you, so much that I had Josh go back and write traits for his (finished months ago) Taldor book just to make sure it had some. :)But will we ever see Osirion traits? Ever? Please?
Probably.
We've got a few other things that are taking up our time in the mean time.
Like finishing an adventure path and starting a new one.
Like creating a book filled with several hundred monsters.
Like launching an entire game.
Like keeping things on a monthly schedule at the same time we do all those things.
Osirion traits are pretty low on the to-do list as a result.
Like finishing an adventure path and starting a new one.
Like creating a book filled with several hundred monsters.
Like launching an entire game.
Like keeping things on a monthly schedule at the same time we do all those things.
I remember how crazy things were for you guys last year on the run up to GenCon and it sounds like this year is going to be worse. I hope you guys and gals take care of yourselves physically and get plenty of sleep.
Yes, the thread on the Osirion book beat that into my head, thank you
Sorry, didn't mean to sound snarky or anything.
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Not only does it not make it more difficult, it actually makes it easier—if you're not beginning the AP in Cheliax, or in a city strongly based on Cheliax, then neither you nor your players need this book. You will want the player information PDF James mentioned, though.
Since I'm doing this exact thing, I have to say that my experience exactly matches what Vic is saying here. I am starting two PbPs for Legacy of Fire, but both are running in the world of and with the system of AEG's Legend of the Burning Sands RPG. As a result, nearly everything in the LoF PG was useless to me for the purpose of preparing for these adventures. (It was still fun to read, of course. And my wife is likely to try to get me to let her play a character who uses battle poi at the earliest available opportunity.) All I wanted or needed were the Campaign Traits, because they provide the needed hook into the actual storyline. Everything else was beside the point.
So I can't see at all how this is a problem for conversion games. The free PDF would be exactly what I would have wanted.
Sorry, didn't mean to sound snarky or anything.
No worries, matey! YARRR!
FWIW, I have Osirion traits lined up for the fanzine. :D
Yes, the thread on the Osirion book beat that into my head, thank you, so much that I had Josh go back and write traits for his (finished months ago) Taldor book just to make sure it had some. :)But will we ever see Osirion traits? Ever? Please?Probably.
We've got a few other things that are taking up our time in the mean time.
Like finishing an adventure path and starting a new one.
Like creating a book filled with several hundred monsters.
Like launching an entire game.
Like keeping things on a monthly schedule at the same time we do all those things.
Osirion traits are pretty low on the to-do list as a result.
So, you won't get to it until next week?
Yes, the thread on the Osirion book beat that into my head, thank you, so much that I had Josh go back and write traits for his (finished months ago) Taldor book just to make sure it had some. :)But will we ever see Osirion traits? Ever? Please?Probably.
We've got a few other things that are taking up our time in the mean time.
Like finishing an adventure path and starting a new one.
Like creating a book filled with several hundred monsters.
Like launching an entire game.
Like keeping things on a monthly schedule at the same time we do all those things.
Osirion traits are pretty low on the to-do list as a result.
Crap. This means I'm gonna get an email from Wes about Osirion traits in a couple of days, doesn't it? :P
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So, what would happen if you release an AP on a location already covered by a Pathfinder Compation ? Is it the end of Campaing Traits ?At this point, my plan is to create a short (4 to 6 page) and free PDF that folks can download at the start of each Adventure Path. This PDF will include all of the information about what to keep in mind when picking your race and class for the upcoming campaign, and will also contain that Adventure Path's campaign traits
Couldn't that just be part of the first AP book?
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Creative Director
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So, what would happen if you release an AP on a location already covered by a Pathfinder Compation ? Is it the end of Campaing Traits ?At this point, my plan is to create a short (4 to 6 page) and free PDF that folks can download at the start of each Adventure Path. This PDF will include all of the information about what to keep in mind when picking your race and class for the upcoming campaign, and will also contain that Adventure Path's campaign traits
Couldn't that just be part of the first AP book?
Nope. We already print a preview of the campaign in the first AP book, so if we also put this player's guide stuff into the first AP book, that'd essentially force us to cut one of the support articles (or 8 pages from the adventure), two things we'd rather avoid.
More importantly, the whole point of the player's guide contents is to get players excited to play a campaign. That means we have to get the player's guide stuff out to as many players as possible, and make it as easy as possible for them to get the content. That's why we've traditionally released them as free PDF products. Putting them into the first AP volume not only makes players have to pay 20 bucks to get the content, but also puts the Player Content into a product that is filled with a LOT of non-player content.
At this point, my plan is to create a short (4 to 6 page) and free PDF that folks can download at the start of each Adventure Path. This PDF will include all of the information about what to keep in mind when picking your race and class for the upcoming campaign, and will also contain that Adventure Path's campaign traits
But there won't be a printed version of this available for sale, or distributed with CoT #1?
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FWIW, I have Osirion traits lined up for the fanzine. :D
And they are ace.
One more job scratched from Mr. Jacobs' list.
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Creative Director
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We won't be producing a printed version of the Player's Guide. It'll be too short, really. Which has the happier side effect of making it pretty easy to print out at home.
Part of the reason why there won't be a printed version, of course, is that if there were a printed version, it would have had to have gone to the printers about a month ago, and said document is still in rough note format. By making it PDF only, we can offset the design/development/editing enough so that it can occur in July... AFTER we're no longer trying to get the 572 page RPG book and the 320 page Bestiary to the printer as well. Basically... we didn't have time to do a Player's Guide that would be printed and available at the same time as the first Council of Thieves, but we DO have time to do a PDF version that will be available at the right time.
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Chief Technical Officer
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We won't be producing a printed version of the Player's Guide. It'll be too short, really. Which has the happier side effect of making it pretty easy to print out at home.
Part of the reason why there won't be a printed version, of course, is that if there were a printed version, it would have had to have gone to the printers about a month ago, and said document is still in rough note format. By making it PDF only, we can offset the design/development/editing enough so that it can occur in July... AFTER we're no longer trying to get the 572 page RPG book and the 320 page Bestiary to the printer as well. Basically... we didn't have time to do a Player's Guide that would be printed and available at the same time as the first Council of Thieves, but we DO have time to do a PDF version that will be available at the right time.
Even if we did have time, we wouldn't. You might know that we did $2 printed Player's Guides for the first couple of APs, and frankly, we had a hard time getting retailers to understand and sell them.
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I'm still concerned this new direction will retread too much ground covered by other products.
If it doesn't ultimately amount to a retread book, then you're basically putting GMs in the position where they don't have everything.. which is annoying because "player guides" should not have campaign setting information in them the "dm guides" on the same topic doesn't.
If it is a retread book and that's what i think it's becoming, I think a lot of people will be canceling this sub, regardless of the extra material you try to put into it.
I know no one likes the idea of canceling a product line, especially the people that make it, but this change sounds like Chronicles-Lite and the PDF sounds like what the Companions used to be when Pathfinder started. Killing the line and including the PDF as part of the AP subscription for DMs to have out to players might be a better approach.
Some information might feel like a repeat, but it's going to be from a different viewpoint. And it's not like the DM shouldn't be reading the Companions, the information is there for all, it is just safe for the players to view without the GM having to say "Read this, but please ignore page 10-12"
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Some information might feel like a repeat, but it's going to be from a different viewpoint. And it's not like the DM shouldn't be reading the Companions, the information is there for all, it is just safe for the players to view without the GM having to say "Read this, but please ignore page 10-12"
But WHY should the DM read the companions?
If only "some" information is a repeat, let's say 20% of it is repeat, then then Companions have stuff that the Chronicles don't the DM should read and Paizo is saying (indirectly) that the Chronicles books aren't complete and DMs have to buy 2 books on the same topic to have all the information on a topic. That's bad and down right unacceptable.
If 80% of the information is Chronicles-Lite (repeat), then the Companions are trivial and Paizo should just put the Companions down and go back to the Runelords style Players Guide again.
I don't want to spend my money on stuff I already have.. or will have when the Chronicles line gets there, and NEITHER do I want to spend money on extra books on the same topic.
And on that thought, an AP should never come out without the Chronicles book on the area already out or coming out during the AP. :P
Some information might feel like a repeat, but it's going to be from a different viewpoint. And it's not like the DM shouldn't be reading the Companions, the information is there for all, it is just safe for the players to view without the GM having to say "Read this, but please ignore page 10-12"But WHY should the DM read the companions?
If only "some" information is a repeat, let's say 20% of it is repeat, then Paizo is saying (indirectly) that the Chronicles books aren't complete and DMs have to buy 2 books on the same topic to have all the information on a topic. That's bad and down right unacceptable.
If 80% of the information is Chronicles-Lite (repeat), then the Companions are trivial and Paizo should just put the Companions down and go back to the Runelords style Players Guide again.
I don't want to spend my money on stuff I already have.. or will have when the Chronicles line gets there, NEITHER do I want to spend money on extra books on the same topic.
Why? To glean every bit of information that Paizo gives us about the world? Since they're not giving us everything in any one location, to give the GM and Players the room to expand things in their own way.
I don't see it as repetition so much as new layers and interpretations. I have the Gazetteer, the Campaign Setting and Gods & Magic. All of these give me various amounts of information about the deities, and while some of it might be the same info, it's told from another person's view (new author often) and gives me more nuance and feel to go on.
Also, the Companions are going to be expanding areas that are not dealt with in detail elsewhere. I know more about Taldor and Osirion now than I did from just the Campaign Setting. The info is expanded and refined. And with the new direction the Companions are going, I don't have to worry about the players reading the book as a whole. It is safe for their eyes. But it useful for me as the GM, as well.
If the books were not useful to the GM, then I would feel they were a waste of paper. They may be aimed at players, but they don't feel a waste to me as a GM.
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Well they did say new direction for the players guides not all the companion's. The players guides are only 2 a year.
As for the DM only book should have all the info and no need for the players version. Then no one including players would buy the player version unless it was a lot cheaper. Why buy something with less info? Especially if all the info the players guide has is in the DM version.
But I think it is a moot point, i don't think they are going to cover the same topics. I think the Companion's are just going to not contain anything beyond what is common knowledge aka what PC's would reasonably know.
While Chronicles will cover stuff PC's might not know. But so far they have not overlapped at all yet. I think we might see something like Secerts of Nations or something and it might included 4 or 5 nations and have DM info on each of them to go with the companions about each country.
Thats just a guess on my part. There might be a little reprint info, I mean there always is when you talk about the same subject. Like the Gods and Magic and the books Gamergirl listed, plus info about each god in the AP where it talks about the more indepth.
Ok hopefully this makes sense, cause I am rambling and feeling meh so often I just go off on weird tangents then.
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Creative Director
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I'm still concerned this new direction will retread too much ground covered by other products.
Since the syncing up of the Cheliax Companion and the adventure path set in Cheliax is the last time that'll be happenening (we decided to extract the Player's Guide stuff from the companions AFTER the companions themselves were already solicited to the book trade, which sort of locked things in), repeating information isn't going to be a problem.
The Player's Guides will remain relatively small and PDF only, and will focus on giving players the info they need to prepare for a single, specific Adventure Path. These will have some repeated information, yes, if the AP takes place in an area we've covered before, and they'll certainly repeat information for Players from that particular AP... but they're free so I'm less worried about someone feeling ripped off.
The Pathfinder Companions will continue to focus on player information, but their topics will be varying and won't necessarily be tied to a particular Adventure Path.
The absolute one thing I absolutely loved about the first few Player's Guides were those beautiful city guides that would take you district by district through key cities like Korvosa or Sandpoint. I'd like to see those around in some form, as without exception that material is not only tremendously useful, but usually is the source of immensely beloved NPCs for our group.
I heard rumor there was going to be a product coming up that was pretty much just this--a half dozen or so major cities done up in loving detail. These sorts of books are like gold in my dungeon vault. Often I can be found in my lair, just stroking them and musing over their contents.
Seriously if everything else about the Player's Guides change completely, I'd hate to lose the city writeups--just so long as they exist in some form, somewhere.
Grimcleaver, I think you're referring to Cities of Golarion.
Nice. Nice. I just hopped over there to look at the book and it looks freakin' AMAZING. So, is the book going the be full length Sandpoint style writeups then I take it? Seriously, I would buy every one of a series like that. The poster-map thing is awesome too. Great stuff.
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Creative Director
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Nice. Nice. I just hopped over there to look at the book and it looks freakin' AMAZING. So, is the book going the be full length Sandpoint style writeups then I take it? Seriously, I would buy every one of a series like that. The poster-map thing is awesome too. Great stuff.
Each city will get about 10 pages of content, I believe. But since each city is MUCH larger than Sandpoint, there's a lot more to cover. And since Sandpoint itself got 14 pages of coverage... well... there ya go.
Using Sandpoint as a guideline for how we present cities is, I think, a good idea though... but I'm biased on that count! :-)
Nice. Nice. I just hopped over there to look at the book and it looks freakin' AMAZING. So, is the book going the be full length Sandpoint style writeups then I take it? Seriously, I would buy every one of a series like that. The poster-map thing is awesome too. Great stuff.Each city will get about 10 pages of content, I believe. But since each city is MUCH larger than Sandpoint, there's a lot more to cover. And since Sandpoint itself got 14 pages of coverage... well... there ya go.
Using Sandpoint as a guideline for how we present cities is, I think, a good idea though... but I'm biased on that count! :-)
~innocent look~ I wonder why you are biased on that count. I just wonder why.
~GRINS~
Each city will get about 10 pages of content, I believe. But since each city is MUCH larger than Sandpoint, there's a lot more to cover. And since Sandpoint itself got 14 pages of coverage... well... there ya go.
That sounds sweet like crazy man. I can't wait to check it out! What I love best is that none of those cities are one's I've ever heard of. That means it'll all be fresh and entirely new. Dude! It's like Christmas...
I hope this product does well and we see another in the series down the road of some of the other cities not yet covered.
Ditto, I adore City books!
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Director of Brand Strategy
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Each city will get about 10 pages of content, I believe. But since each city is MUCH larger than Sandpoint, there's a lot more to cover. And since Sandpoint itself got 14 pages of coverage... well... there ya go.That sounds sweet like crazy man. I can't wait to check it out! What I love best is that none of those cities are one's I've ever heard of. That means it'll all be fresh and entirely new. Dude! It's like Christmas...
I believe each of the cities included has the normal paragraph or two in the Campaign Setting. None of them are "new additions" to the setting.
No, I totally know that. I just mean they aren't doing cities that have gotten a ton of previous exposure. Not that they're making up new places, but that they're throwing the spotlight here into places I genuinely know very little about. It's a good thing. I love that I get to see some of the fog of war roll back and get some meaty depth to some other regions in Golarion. It's wonderful.
Do we have an ETA yet for the CoT player's guide?