hey guys, I wanna make a Beast totem warrior build. preferably human. and I want the build to revolve around the 'lesser Beast Totem' Rage power. I want to optimise the damage from the claw attacks.
as for point buy. our stats have to add up to 80 before mods, so its a lot of points to play with.
So, the main problem here is that by focusing on claws, you're never going to get iterative attacks in a conventional way. Meaning that you're going to suffer on damage compared to anyone else after level 6 (once full BAB classes are getting are getting their first iterative). That's the main problem with natural attack based builds is that without iterative attacks, you're damage just can't keep up. Which is contrasted by the fact that early on it is more effective because you have more attacks.
If however you are set on it, I suggest building for high strength and high con.
18 strength (20 with human bonus)
14 dex
18 con
12 int
10 wis
8 cha
You'll want to find as many other natural attacks as you can. Get a bite and a gore if possible.
Pick up superstitious rage power, and use the human favored class bonus to enhance it.
Come and Get Me can get you more attacks in a round (which allows you to deal more damage), but you'll need combat reflexes and thus you need some dex.
So, the main problem here is that by focusing on claws, you're never going to get iterative attacks in a conventional way. Meaning that you're going to suffer on damage compared to anyone else after level 6 (once full BAB classes are getting are getting their first iterative). That's the main problem with natural attack based builds is that without iterative attacks, you're damage just can't keep up. Which is contrasted by the fact that early on it is more effective because you have more attacks.
If however you are set on it, I suggest building for high strength and high con.
18 strength (20 with human bonus)
14 dex
18 con
12 int
10 wis
8 chaYou'll want to find as many other natural attacks as you can. Get a bite and a gore if possible.
Pick up superstitious rage power, and use the human favored class bonus to enhance it.
Come and Get Me can get you more attacks in a round (which allows you to deal more damage), but you'll need combat reflexes and thus you need some dex.
I was thinking of going down the route of Feral Combat Training and Boar Style, maybe improved natural attack and maybe taking a level dip in Monk (Martial Artist archetype.) do you think that would help?
Feral Combat Training wont let you use natural attacks with iterative attacks, unless you're a monk using flurry.
Increasing damage dice really only gets you so far. You need big static damage multipliers. Generally, a barbarian has a big strength score that gets multiplied by 1.5 for two handed weapons and uses power attack with +3 damage for every -1 to hit. With natural attacks you don't get the same return since you only get full strength and +2 damage for -1 to hit. Though, it can work out alright since all your natural attacks are at full BAB, the penalty to hit from Power Attack isn't as bad.
But you still best to try and acquire as many natural attacks as you can.
I don't think Feral Combat Training will help you enough to be worthwhile.
Feral Combat Training wont let you use natural attacks with iterative attacks, unless you're a monk using flurry.
Increasing damage dice really only gets you so far. You need big static damage multipliers. Generally, a barbarian has a big strength score that gets multiplied by 1.5 for two handed weapons and uses power attack with +3 damage for every -1 to hit. With natural attacks you don't get the same return since you only get full strength and +2 damage for -1 to hit. Though, it can work out alright since all your natural attacks are at full BAB, the penalty to hit from Power Attack isn't as bad.
But you still best to try and acquire as many natural attacks as you can.
I don't think Feral Combat Training will help you enough to be worthwhile.
not even when combined with a level of monk and boar style?
not even when combined with a level of monk and boar style?Feral Combat Training wont let you use natural attacks with iterative attacks, unless you're a monk using flurry.
Increasing damage dice really only gets you so far. You need big static damage multipliers. Generally, a barbarian has a big strength score that gets multiplied by 1.5 for two handed weapons and uses power attack with +3 damage for every -1 to hit. With natural attacks you don't get the same return since you only get full strength and +2 damage for -1 to hit. Though, it can work out alright since all your natural attacks are at full BAB, the penalty to hit from Power Attack isn't as bad.
But you still best to try and acquire as many natural attacks as you can.
I don't think Feral Combat Training will help you enough to be worthwhile.
It will depend on how BAB from other classes stacks with monk BAB to determine the effect of Flurry of Blows, which I honestly can't remember how it works.
Bear in mind though, that then means you can't wear any armor. Which means you will have a pretty poor AC unless you give yourself more dex. And if you give yourself more dex, it means less strength for damage. Unless you use an agile amulet of mighty fists, which means no amulet of natural armor. And you're going to need the amulet of mighty fists anyways because you can't enhance your claws otherwise.
It starts getting a lot more complicated when you go this route.
Couldnt you take Dragon style to get 1.5 str for claws? Would need IUS and feral combat training though
You could, but keep in mind he can only use one style at a time without a level in Master of Many Styles, which would replace Flurry of Blows.
Couldnt you take Dragon style to get 1.5 str for claws? Would need IUS and feral combat training though
could do, that would work a lot better with the greater beast totem rage power - pounce. thanks.
not even when combined with a level of monk and boar style?Feral Combat Training wont let you use natural attacks with iterative attacks, unless you're a monk using flurry.
Increasing damage dice really only gets you so far. You need big static damage multipliers. Generally, a barbarian has a big strength score that gets multiplied by 1.5 for two handed weapons and uses power attack with +3 damage for every -1 to hit. With natural attacks you don't get the same return since you only get full strength and +2 damage for -1 to hit. Though, it can work out alright since all your natural attacks are at full BAB, the penalty to hit from Power Attack isn't as bad.
But you still best to try and acquire as many natural attacks as you can.
I don't think Feral Combat Training will help you enough to be worthwhile.
It will depend on how BAB from other classes stacks with monk BAB to determine the effect of Flurry of Blows, which I honestly can't remember how it works.
Bear in mind though, that then means you can't wear any armor. Which means you will have a pretty poor AC unless you give yourself more dex. And if you give yourself more dex, it means less strength for damage. Unless you use an agile amulet of mighty fists, which means no amulet of natural armor. And you're going to need the amulet of mighty fists anyways because you can't enhance your claws otherwise.
It starts getting a lot more complicated when you go this route.
Couldnt you take Dragon style to get 1.5 str for claws? Would need IUS and feral combat training thoughYou could, but keep in mind he can only use one style at a time without a level in Master of Many Styles, which would replace Flurry of Blows.
to be honest, I try to stay away from magic items. when I plan a character around magic items I feel like I'm stepping into the GM's terrain. I feel its up to them to decide when and where what magical item shows up. and unless a character has knowledge arcana I doubt they'll even have enough knowledge about specific magic items to be pursue.
to be honest, I try to stay away from magic items. when I plan a character around magic items I feel like I'm stepping into the GM's terrain. I feel its up to them to decide when and where what magical...
I agree. Which is why I think trying to use feral combat training and flurry doesn't work well IMO.
Better off getting as many natural attacks as you can. Animal Fury gives you a bite BTW.
to be honest, I try to stay away from magic items. when I plan a character around magic items I feel like I'm stepping into the GM's terrain. I feel its up to them to decide when and where what magical...I agree. Which is why I think trying to use feral combat training and flurry doesn't work well IMO.
Better off getting as many natural attacks as you can. Animal Fury gives you a bite BTW.
so would you say this build suits a strictly low level campaign? just go solid beast totem barbarian and pick up a bite attack?
Increasing damage dice really only gets you so far. You need big static damage multipliers. Generally, a barbarian has a big strength score that gets multiplied by 1.5 for two handed weapons and uses power attack with +3 damage for every -1 to hit. With natural attacks you don't get the same return since you only get full strength and +2 damage for -1 to hit. Though, it can work out alright since all your natural attacks are at full BAB, the penalty to hit from Power Attack isn't as bad.
Hmm, if we assume the natural attack deals 2/3 of the damage of a two handed weapon, +2 damage for the natural is as good as +3 for the two handed - relatively. In both cases the damage output is increased by the same x%. And 2/3 is not that unrealistic at lower levels, giving 1x strength vs 1.5x strength and 1d6 vs 2d6.
Primary natural weapons are at full BAB (as you already pointed out), so for them Power Attack hurts the damage output less. Bottom line would be: Power Attack can be even more powerful for natural attacks than for two handed weapons, depending on the scenario.
so would you say this build suits a strictly low level campaign? just go solid beast totem barbarian and pick up a bite attack?to be honest, I try to stay away from magic items. when I plan a character around magic items I feel like I'm stepping into the GM's terrain. I feel its up to them to decide when and where what magical...I agree. Which is why I think trying to use feral combat training and flurry doesn't work well IMO.
Better off getting as many natural attacks as you can. Animal Fury gives you a bite BTW.
If you were playing an E6 campaign it would be amazing. You would likely deal more damage than anyone else. Once you get to 6th level (and if you don't have another natural attack) DPR is going to be close between you and a two-handed weapon user. At 11th level they will pass you by unless you get extra attacks. At 6th level you will loose the advantage you had (the extra attack) but not benefit from the better damage of two handed for strength or power attack. You're only benefit will be your +5 to hit by comparison to the iterative attacks of the weapons. A 3rd natural attack will keep you relevant (though you'll be behind) up to 11th level. Haste will help you less than it helps two-handers.
I wouldn't say it's strictly low-level, it's just a lot harder to be good at than doing the standard easy thing of two-handed weapon with power attack.
I wouldn't say it's strictly low-level, it's just a lot harder to be good at than doing the standard easy thing of two-handed weapon with power attack.so would you say this build suits a strictly low level campaign? just go solid beast totem barbarian and pick up a bite attack?to be honest, I try to stay away from magic items. when I plan a character around magic items I feel like I'm stepping into the GM's terrain. I feel its up to them to decide when and where what magical...I agree. Which is why I think trying to use feral combat training and flurry doesn't work well IMO.
Better off getting as many natural attacks as you can. Animal Fury gives you a bite BTW.
true, but than again I find that with most martial builds. its hard to do better than a min maxed barbarian half-orc with a great axe and power attack. thanks for the advice.
true, but than again I find that with most martial builds. its hard to do better than a min maxed barbarian half-orc with agreat axegreatsword/nodachi and power attack. thanks for the advice.
FTFY
;)
Really for natural attacks, you want to get your static damage as high as possible, to compensate for having lower die types (most natural weapons are in the 1d4/1d6 range). You can be an effective damage dealer, but you have to think more like a two-weapon fighter than a two-handed fighter: you're looking to be able to hit with more attacks to keep up your damage. The other thing that you need to make sure of is that all of your natural attacks are primary natural attacks. Secondary natural attacks really break natural weapon combat types (as they have a -5 to hit and deal .50% strength damage). Half-Orcs with two levels of ranger (or slayer) can take Aspect of the Beast to get 2 primary claw attacks to go along with the primary bite attack that they can get as an alternate racial feature. That's a good base to run with (you can get secondary natural attacks with things like gores or wings, but for your purposes I would reccomend sticking to the above 3 natural attacks). I would also recommend grabbing levels of barbarian, Ranger, and (probably fighter for bonus feats).
Power attack is really going to be your friend. You'll be in the same boat as unarmed characters when it comes to how your attacks get enhanced.
If you are going monk with boar style, why are you even bothering with your claws and all that feral combat training junk?
With boar style, you can rip people apart with your bare hands. They are already basically claws that can be used for iterative attacks, and gain benefits from spells aimed at natural weapons and manufactured weapons.
I would ignore the beast totem claws entirely in that case. It needs too many resources, and it ends up in EXACTLY the same place as the boar claws.
If the goal is to optimize claws on a Barbarian, Feral Combat Training: Claw and Dragon Style/Ferocity to make 2xSTR/1.5xSTR work for rage is probably the single most potent option, and it gives you a 'backup weapon' if you can't rage. There's nothing that says you have to use flurry with Feral Combat Training if you don't want to; Master of Many Styles opens up the option of crossing dragon with another style.
Boar is nice, though if you really want to maximize an exclusively claw-based build, the usually-pointless Tiger Claws ability of Tiger Style is actually pretty nasty when crossed with Dragon Style and Power Attack. It's a single strike that stacks unarmed damage twice, and it's an attack with 'a one handed weapon using two hands'. So assuming that it's your first 'unarmed strike' in a round, then you essentially end up with a single double-claw strike that has 2xweapon, 4.5x STR and 3x Power Attack, and it could still be used with Cornugon Smash and Hurtful. You can also use the Strength Surge Rage Power with it to help send the target flying if you want to tap into the Bull Rush aspect of the ability.
Eldritch Claws is one of the few exclusive benefits to natural attacks, if you're worried about not having enhancement.
If the goal is to optimize claws on a Barbarian, Feral Combat Training: Claw and Dragon Style/Ferocity to make 2xSTR/1.5xSTR work for rage is probably the single most potent option, and it gives you a 'backup weapon' if you can't rage. There's nothing that says you have to use flurry with Feral Combat Training if you don't want to; Master of Many Styles opens up the option of crossing dragon with another style.
Boar is nice, though if you really want to maximize an exclusively claw-based build, the usually-pointless Tiger Claws ability of Tiger Style is actually pretty nasty when crossed with Dragon Style and Power Attack. It's a single strike that stacks unarmed damage twice, and it's an attack with 'a one handed weapon using two hands'. So assuming that it's your first 'unarmed strike' in a round, then you essentially end up with a single double-claw strike that has 2xweapon, 4.5x STR and 3x Power Attack, and it could still be used with Cornugon Smash and Hurtful. You can also use the Strength Surge Rage Power with it to help send the target flying if you want to tap into the Bull Rush aspect of the ability.
Eldritch Claws is one of the few exclusive benefits to natural attacks, if you're worried about not having enhancement.
that all sounds great but unfortunately the only monk archetype my character can take is the martial artist. The others have an alignment requirement thats not compatible with barbarians. thanks though.
that all sounds great but unfortunately the only monk archetype my character can take is the martial artist. The others have an alignment requirement thats not compatible with barbarians. thanks though.
Yeah, I got thinking along Bloodrager lines there. With a GM waiver on alignment for a one level dip, or by starting as a Monk ditching his monastery and lawful path and then retraining, it could be made to work, but it's kind of a nuisance.
Anyhow Martial Artist 1 with Dragon Style and Feral Combat Training is still likely the best way to exploit Rage with claws, and it can be all set up by level 5 with Eldritch Claws by 7. It doesn't hurt that the Monk level gives a nice bonus to all saves along with the bonus feats.