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With the new FAQ that let's you add 1 1/2 times your dex to damage with a two-handed weapon, my question is this:
If I am an Unchained Rogue using an Elven Curve Blade in two hands, can I use Power Attack as well, as long as I meet the prerequisites to get the feat?
I am pretty sure it works just fine, but my friend insisted on posting on the message boards to get a more definitive answer.
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...why wouldn't you be able to get power attack?
As long as you meet the prerequisites (13 str, +1 BAB), you can always get it.
And power attack doesn't care if you are using strength or dexterity really. It just does the extra damage, and x1.5 extra damage if you two hand.
It's absolutely ok to use Power Attack with two-handed weapon for -1 attack : + 3 damage ratio, even when the damage is Dex based.
Just like using power attack one handed is fine with fencing grace + rapier, or dervish dance + scimitar, or slashing grace + whatever gets finalized, or agile weapon + finessable weapon gets -1 attack / +2 damage for regular one-handed or light weapon power attack bonuses even if using Dex to damage.
Could also use piranha strike. Same as power attack but for finessed weapons. Benefit is that you wouldn't need to have your Str at 13.
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...why wouldn't you be able to get power attack?
As long as you meet the prerequisites (13 str, +1 BAB), you can always get it.
And power attack doesn't care if you are using strength or dexterity really. It just does the extra damage, and x1.5 extra damage if you two hand.
My friend is mainly concerned about the bolded text below:
You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.
When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2.
You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
It doesn't give you +3 damage per -1 to hit like power attack, but Piranha Strike is basically power attack that doesn't require 13 Str. You just need +1 BAB and Weapon Finesse.
It says light weapon in the feat description, but I swear I read somewhere that you can also use it with weapons that are considered light weapon for weapon finesse like the Curve Blade. Less damage than power attack, but it means you don't have to put points in to get to 13 STR if you don't want to.
...why wouldn't you be able to get power attack?
As long as you meet the prerequisites (13 str, +1 BAB), you can always get it.
And power attack doesn't care if you are using strength or dexterity really. It just does the extra damage, and x1.5 extra damage if you two hand.
My friend is mainly concerned about the bolded text below:
You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.
When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2.
You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
I'm pretty sure the bolded section is discussing primary natural weapons exclusively.
My friend is mainly concerned about the bolded text below:
You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.
When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2.
You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
Are you using a natural weapon? No? Then you're fine.
Could also use piranha strike. Same as power attack but for finessed weapons. Benefit is that you wouldn't need to have your Str at 13.Light weapons only, not finessed weapons.
Correct, the curve blade doesn't "count as a light weapon." The weapon just allows finesse.
...why wouldn't you be able to get power attack?
As long as you meet the prerequisites (13 str, +1 BAB), you can always get it.
And power attack doesn't care if you are using strength or dexterity really. It just does the extra damage, and x1.5 extra damage if you two hand.
My friend is mainly concerned about the bolded text below:
You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.
When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2.
You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
That bolded section is only concerns natural weapons. If a creature with a natural attack only has 1 natural attack, like a Wolf who only has a bite attack, it gets x1.5 STR to damage. A creature like a Leopard, that has a bite and 2 claw attacks only gets to add its base STR to damage on the attacks, even the bite. The written rules for this is somewhere I can't remember, but if he would like proof refer him to the bestiary entries for both animals and look at the damage they do on their attacks.
...why wouldn't you be able to get power attack?
As long as you meet the prerequisites (13 str, +1 BAB), you can always get it.
And power attack doesn't care if you are using strength or dexterity really. It just does the extra damage, and x1.5 extra damage if you two hand.
My friend is mainly concerned about the bolded text below:
You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.
When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2.
You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
You'd need to bold more for proper context.
You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.[/b]
They need to put in the 1.5 x Strength modifier bit with natural attack to tell the player which kind of natural attack would with that case (typically if a creature only has one natural attack, it's at 1.5 x Str, whereas if it has more than one primary natural attacks, they're all at 1xStr)
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1h3#v5748eaic9tb7
Thanks. I'm on mah phone and lazy.
Right. And even if you do have that single natural attack, that has to be all you're attacking with for the 1.5x (and the big power attack bonus). A barbarian with animal fury and a greataxe doing power attacks will be getting the big bonuses on the axe, and lousy ones on the bite -- half Strength bonus and +1 per -1 from Power Attack. And also has to floss carefully after each battle.
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Yes - you can get a 3:1 ratio with a elven curved blade and PA.
However - as a rogue I wouldn't bother picking up Power Attack. You probably shouldn't bother getting a 13 STR and even unchained rogues have too much of an accuracy issue to make using Power Attack worthwhile very often.
Instead - elven curved blade rogues are the perfect time to grab Improved Feint. Until level 8 you aren't even giving up any attacks by using it, and as the opposite of PA, it actually helps with your accuracy issues.
FYI - Piranha Strike does not give 3:1 even on two handed weapons. That gives at least some reason to get Power Attack over Piranha Strike. Otherwise, I agree with Charon's Little Helper. It is not a good enough reason.
Actually, you can use any light weapon in two hands.
FYI - Piranha Strike does not give 3:1 even on two handed weapons. That gives at least some reason to get Power Attack over Piranha Strike. Otherwise, I agree with Charon's Little Helper. It is not a good enough reason.
Well, there is also the whole thing about rogues getting x1.5 dex damage too.
So it is sacrificing a bit on the point buy to get the most out of your static bonuses to damage. From the loss, I would basically compare it to another level of power attack- attack loss for more total damage.
Since you don't really have too many primary stats past dex, and power attack requires a str score that is JUST under the increased point scaling in point buy... It is not a major loss.
Just a random bit of fiddling with a basic 20 point buy based on my standards...it is just the difference between 20 dex and 18 dex. -1 attack, but you get +1 extra damage. And each and every time you increase dex, that extra damage grows. And you still have better power attack on top of that.
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Just a random bit of fiddling with a basic 20 point buy based on my standards...it is just the difference between 20 dex and 18 dex. -1 attack, but you get +1 extra damage. And each and every time you increase dex, that extra damage grows. And you still have better power attack on top of that.
That's a bit off.
not counting BAB/magic items (which would be the same)
20 dex without PA would be at +5 and deal 1d10+7 damage at level 3
18 dex with PA would be at +3 and deal 1d10+9 damage at level 3
So, -2 to hit for +2 damage. When you get up to 22dex & 20 dex respectively, it becomes -2 to hit for +1 damage. At the cost of a feat. And all of the other advantages the dex would give you. (initiative/reflex/skills etc)
When PA gets 'better' at level 6 is right when rogues start really falling behind other martials in accuracy (2 BAB behind, and virtually every other martial has extra accuracy by then via weapon training/multiple smites/plenty of rage/etc), and you'd be at -3 to hit for +4-5 damage. Not worth it for anyone, especially a class who has accuracy issues. Moreso when the accuracy trade actually costs your build a feat.
Power Attack is a poor choice for rogues.
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Wait... Rogues go past level 3?
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yes they go to 4 for debilitating strike stuff
Ah. Well. Truth be told I haven't done any builds yet using the new Rogue. Do they go past 4, though?
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Ah. Well. Truth be told I haven't done any builds yet using the new Rogue. Do they go past 4, though?
It depends upon the build. They're a pretty solid martial class in their own right now, but it's not uncommon for someone with no intention be to 'rogue-y' to go for the 3-4 level dip. (Seems like too much to be just a 'dip' to me - but to each their own.)
I will say - a 1-2 level dip into Snakebite Striker for an unchained rogue wouldn't be a bad idea either.
Instead of having str 13 you could dip two levels into slayer or ranger to get power attack as a bonus feat.
Or, in case you are a hobgoblin, a single level dip into iron skinned monk.