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So, i know it can sound a little weird to hear a thread like this since impact is largely known as an improvement for melee weapons, however reading through the specifical text of the ability i found myself wondering.
The text says :
"This special ability can only be placed on melee weapons that are not light weapons. An impact weapon delivers a potent kinetic jolt when it strikes, dealing damage as if the weapon were one size category larger. In addition, any bull rush combat maneuver the wielder attempts while wielding the weapon gains a bonus equal to the weapon's enhancement bonus; this includes all bull rush attempts, not only those in which a weapon is used, such as Bull Rush Strike, Shield Slam, or Unseat."
as far as i know a thrown weapon, let's say an harpoon, is a melee weapon that can be thrown, and as i read in the text there isn't a specific kind of attack that activates the magic effect (ex. Melee, Ranged) it instead just says the kind of weapon that can be enchanted and that the effect is used when it strikes.
Am i reading it wrong or i can actually use impact to increase the damage dice of a thrown weapon (when i throw it XD)?
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However, by strict RAW, it will only function when wielded as a melee weapon, not when thrown. A thrown weapon is treated as a ranged weapon when thrown, and thus the enchantment would not function then as it requires a melee weapon.
Check with your GM, expect table variation.
I'd argue against "strict RAW" restricting it's function to melee use. The restriction is on what weapon can be enchanted and nothing says that the weapon must be used in any particular way. "strict RAW" would result in no use restriction as none is listed. RAI is where it's debatable.
I'd agree with expecting table variation.
When you throw it it's an improvised weapon and doesn't get to use any of its special qualities. It wouldn't even keep its base damage die.
I'd like to let you know that q weapon with a range listed on the table (like a spear o harpoon, when thrown is not an improvised weapon; moreover just to give some thoughts to those citing the strict RAW , from ultimate equipment:
"Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some can be thrown as well.Ranged weapons include thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee"
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When you throw it it's an improvised weapon and doesn't get to use any of its special qualities. It wouldn't even keep its base damage die.I'd like to let you know that q weapon with a range listed on the table (like a spear o harpoon, when thrown is not an improvised weapon; moreover just to give some thoughts to those citing the strict RAW , from ultimate equipment:
"Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some can be thrown as well.
Ranged weapons include thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee"
Right, I knew that, I just misread your question. The specific question you asked didn't look to me like what you wrote in the middle of your text nor what you just clarified it to be.
I should have written " harpoon that is a melee weapon with throwing range" sorry for that
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However, by strict RAW, it will only function when wielded as a melee weapon, not when thrownI'd argue against "strict RAW" restricting it's function to melee use.
I'd agree with expecting table variation.
I'd agree with "strict RAW" it only works as melee and not thrown.
Expect table variance ;-)
However, by strict RAW, it will only function when wielded as a melee weapon, not when thrownI'd argue against "strict RAW" restricting it's function to melee use.
I'd agree with expecting table variation.
I'd agree with "strict RAW" it only works as melee and not thrown.
Expect table variance ;-)
Can you explain me how "strict RAW" is going to let it only affect melee attacks?
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I would like to have some clear answer to the main question, meaning with this that i would like some citation to a written rule that prevents me retaining this kind of bonus when throwing a spear for example.
The need comes because the poor written text of "Impact" clearly doesn't give me a limitation on such an attack so i was looking for some rule outside of the enchantment text itself that could be more specific; thx however to the ones who already answered :P
Btw should i FAQ it?
I would like to have some clear answer to the main question, meaning with this that i would like some citation to a written rule that prevents me retaining this kind of bonus when throwing a spear for example.
The need comes because the poor written text of "Impact" clearly doesn't give me a limitation on such an attack so i was looking for some rule outside of the enchantment text itself that could be more specific; thx however to the ones who already answered :P
Btw should i FAQ it?
This is a question that's come up before and hasn't gotten answered. Some read the limitation as only mattering at enchantment while other see it as a continuing restriction on the enchantment (it continually checks with each attack to see if you're wielding it right). To give some perspective, it was brought up with keen weapons and the weapon versatility feat that allows the weapon to deal alternate damage types (like blunt).
It could use a FAQ but it hasn't managed to get one yet.
Let's use another example:
A Halberd is a weapon that can do Slashing or Piercing Damage. The Vorpal enchantment can only be used on slashing weapons. If you have a vorpal halberd, you will not decapitate someone when you roll a 20 while doing piercing damage.
And I agree with you because when i chose to do piercing damage my halberd can't be treated as a slashing weapon.
Now throwing a spear it's kind of different for me: it is a melee weapon that can be thrown so i can do a melee or ranged attack with it but it stays a melee weapon, while a Javelin for example stays a ranged weapon since i can't use it in melee without treating it as an improvised weapon.Since
Ranged weapons include thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee"
i suppose that a melee weapon stays a melee weapon when thrown and a ranged weapon stays a ranged weapon when use in melee as an improveised on; i mean, "Melee" and "Ranged" are weapon's identity , while you can do melee and ranged attack with virtually any weapon.
Is there written somewhere that using a weapon in a different way shifts it in another weapon? if it would be so i could enchant a sword with ranged weapons enchantments that would activate when i throw it? xD ...it' doesnt make any sense btw xD
Let's use another example:
A Halberd is a weapon that can do Slashing or Piercing Damage. The Vorpal enchantment can only be used on slashing weapons. If you have a vorpal halberd, you will not decapitate someone when you roll a 20 while doing piercing damage.
For me this is like saying that an enchant that requires a one handed weapon stops working because I use it in two hands. Even when dealing Piercing Damage the halberd never stopped being a slashing weapon.
It seems odd to treat a weapon by it's type and not how you wield it for one thing but then take the opposite view, it's how you wield it not what type it is, for another thing. It's contrary enough I'd want to see a ruling/FAQ before saying that's how it is.
Let's use another example:
A Halberd is a weapon that can do Slashing or Piercing Damage. The Vorpal enchantment can only be used on slashing weapons. If you have a vorpal halberd, you will not decapitate someone when you roll a 20 while doing piercing damage.
For me this is like saying that an enchant that requires a one handed weapon stops working because I use it in two hands. Even when dealing Piercing Damage the halberd never stopped being a slashing weapon.
It seems odd to treat a weapon by it's type and not how you wield it for one thing but then take the opposite view, it's how you wield it not what type it is, for another thing. It's contrary enough I'd want to see a ruling/FAQ before saying that's how it is.
Indeed, it's awkward, but there are weird cases given how things are set up.
One could argue that bracing a lucern hammer against a charge means you're doing double damage as bludgeoning since it's not called out that you have to go piercing to brace, even though I wouldn't even try to get that one past my GM. (And a piercing weapon can be keen, so ... weird.)
For impact? Um ... if I had to make a call, I think I would allow it, if only that I can't imagine it being used that often. How often do (non-returning) thrown melee weapons get used in a fight by someone?
Qaianna: Oh, I understand. Plenty of the things in the game seem awkward and have weird cases. And this is one of those cases where both sides sees their view as making logical sense making it one of those no win situations until an FAQ shows up.
AS to brace: For instance a Bardiche, Bill and Glaive-guisarme has brace and only do slashing. If chopping weapons work just fine with brace I see no issue with bludgeoning ones doing the same.
Relevant but not direct answer from Mark Seifter:
I took a look. The iconic medium is not adding it on thrown damage, since it isn't being used as a melee weapon then. That seems right to me.Here's a new question for you then, Mr. Seifter!
I was reading the changes to Slashing Grace, and was pleased that it now applies to my daggers. The way that the post-errata Slashing Grace is worded, it makes no distinguishment between ranged attacks and melee attacks with the selected weapon.
So if I'm a flying blade and I pick dagger, would Slashing Grace allow me to add my Dexterity modifier to my dagger's damage when I throw it?
(I figured you might know considering that the Iconic Medium uses a starknife and apparently has Slashing Grace.)
(Emphasis mine)
Thanks for the link DM Sothal. So it is a rules team member's opinion that if you throw a weapon it is not a melee weapon at that point. So things that work for melee weapon attacks wouldn't help. Namely Impact.
I'm not sure how much weight to give that as the Iconic has an illegal weapon (P) for the feat in question and that didn't seem 'wrong' to Mark so I'll take the whole thing as an off the cuff comment.
Slashing Grace: In the 2nd printing errata, what exactly does it mean that “You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied?” Can I use a shield? What about a buckler? Can I use flurry of blows? Brawler’s flurry? Two-weapon fighting? Spell combat? Attack with natural weapons? What if I throw the weapon? What about swordmaster’s flair?
Slashing Grace does not allow most shields, but bucklers work because they don’t occupy the hand. Flurry of blows, brawler’s flurry, two-weapon fighting, and spell combat all don’t work with Slashing Grace. Attacking with natural weapons beyond the weapon you chose for Slashing Grace also does not work. Slashing Grace only works with melee attacks, not thrown attacks with a melee weapon. Swordmaster’s flair should have a sentence added to it that says “Carrying a swordmaster’s flair counts as having that hand free for the purpose of abilities that require a free hand, though you still can’t hold another object in that hand.”
Just copy/pasted from errata and i can exactly read "thrown attacks with a melee weapon"
If it's a throwable weapon that is a One-Handed melee weapon (like the spear) or a one-handed melee weapon that also has the Throwing magical enhancement (which makes any weapon throwable) you should still gain the benefit of the bonus damage die with the Impact enchantment, which only says "when it strikes, it deals damage as though it was one size category larger."
You can't bull rush with it by throwing it, though. That's melee only.