Bodhizen,
you're making an error on cost calculations with the adamantine.
Cost of adamantine in PF is based on difficulty of forging and rarity, neither of which have to really apply in Starfinder, since you're in space, and solar forges can likely cook a battleship's worth of adamantine mined out of an asteroid field up all at once.
Even in the Iron Gods AP, the ship is MADE FROM a partial adamantine alloy, not just plated in a thin sheaf of it!
Likewise, you're having each piece of plating being enchanted separately, which is akin to having each piece of armor on a suit costed out separately. No, you should reasonably be able to enchant the entire hull at one time, for a vastly reduced sum (and likely would have little effect since most attacks are still going to be against touch AC or are AoE attacks).
This is based on access to tech and raw materials, but that's one of the things about SF, those specific kinds of resources for building starships might indeed be available. It just makes sense that starships should be made of superior materials. Adamantine plating might add +5 to a starship's hull hardness, which is 10 less energy damage, and wouldn't be ignored by adamantine armor-piercing munitions...wahoo?
But if you don't have to sit down with a hammer and knock the adamantine out, you can actually melt tons of it and pour and mold it just like steel...shouldn't be that costly.
just a thought.
And if it is...then plate it in steel and Polymorph Any Object it into Adamantine, for exactly the same effect, just restricted to higher levels spell slots. With Fabricate, cost of making the plates would be FREE...you'd only need the raw metal.
==Aelryinth
Thank you for your input, Aelrynith!
Bodhizen,
you're making an error on cost calculations with the adamantine.
Cost of adamantine in PF is based on difficulty of forging and rarity, neither of which have to really apply in Starfinder, since you're in space, and solar forges can likely cook a battleship's worth of adamantine mined out of an asteroid field up all at once.
You're assuming a few things:
1) I have a desire to "flood the market" of any planet that adventurers visit when using the Starfinder product. This has the consequence of dramatically altering the economic status of any existing planet.
2) Adamantine is any more common in Starfinder than it is in Pathfinder.
3) The cost to work adamantine is any less than it is in Pathfinder.
Even in the Iron Gods AP, the ship is MADE FROM a partial adamantine alloy, not just plated in a thin sheaf of it!
Correct. A partial adamantine alloy, not the pure enchanted adamantine plating that was asked after.
Likewise, you're having each piece of plating being enchanted separately, which is akin to having each piece of armor on a suit costed out separately. No, you should reasonably be able to enchant the entire hull at one time, for a vastly reduced sum (and likely would have little effect since most attacks are still going to be against touch AC or are AoE attacks).
In any case, you're talking about a one inch-thick 5x5 adamantine plate, which is equivalent to the same amount of material in 50 suits of full plate mail. Suggesting that it costs 18,000gp to enchant roughly 3,675 tons of adamantine (using the previous vessel's dimensions) is somewhat nonsensical in and of itself, but to suggest that it costs the same amount to enchant hundreds of thousands of tons of adamantine for a larger vessel is even more so.
This is based on access to tech and raw materials, but that's one of the things about SF, those specific kinds of resources for building starships might indeed be available. It just makes sense that starships should be made of superior materials. Adamantine plating might add +5 to a starship's hull hardness, which is 10 less energy damage, and wouldn't be ignored by adamantine armor-piercing munitions...wahoo?
I have deep and troubling concerns about power creep. If I introduce adamantine-piercing munitions, then someone using Starfinder material could use those munitions to shoot down a character on Golarion wearing adamantine armor. Additionally, vessels in Spelljammer, which is a huge inspiration for this project, were made from materials such as wood, ceramic, stone, etc... There's no specific need for vessels to be made of superior materials.
But if you don't have to sit down with a hammer and knock the adamantine out, you can actually melt tons of it and pour and mold it just like steel...shouldn't be that costly.
just a thought.
I appreciate the thoughts, very much. I do not necessarily agree here, but I do appreciate them.
And if it is...then plate it in steel and Polymorph Any Object it into Adamantine, for exactly the same effect, just restricted to higher levels spell slots. With Fabricate, cost of making the plates would be FREE...you'd only need the raw metal.
==Aelryinth
The polymorph any object spell cannot create material of great intrinsic value, such as copper, silver, gems, silk, gold, platinum, mithral, or adamantine. It also cannot reproduce the special properties of cold iron in order to overcome the damage reduction of certain creatures. Unfortunately, this is not a valid means of circumventing the cost.
Best wishes!
In regards to a vehicle class being a Gunslinger archetype rather than a base class; That's pretty valid, guns and siege engines are somewhere in the same category so it would make Gunslingers and Fighters obvious assets to ship weapon experts. This is assuming that ship weapons are siege engines like they are in Paizo's vehicle rules. I also assume thats the basis for enchanting ship mounted weapons.
I'm not advocating adamantine piercing munitions, I'm noting that ADAMANTINE munitions exist, and so adamantine hulls should exist to defy them.
Adamantine piercing attacks already exist...they are called touch attacks and AoE attacks, generally energy assaults. Against such things, Adamantine is basically only a slightly superior form of energy resistance for a closed-hull vessel.
Enchanting an entire hull is no different thematically then the cost of enchanting a Storm Giant's Zweihander or Plate mail or Tower Shield being EXACTLY the same amount as a halfling's dagger or leather armor or buckler. Pathfinder doesn't care about size. It's all one entity. the real variation will be in the material, not the magic.
So, you're probably going to have to go the extra step and actually set the cost of enchanting the hulls of ships. If you want to base on size/volume, then just add multipliers, but it's a slight departure from the existing standards. Note that at tech levels, there IS no material armor against kinetic weapons traveling at miles/second...it's all just liquid against projectiles moving that fast. The place it would be effective is marginal reduction of energy-based attacks against the hull.
Theoretically, it would not be much different then buying magically hardened walls, since that is basically what you are doing, you aren't making intricate armor.
You were missing the point on the Trinity. The ship was made of a steel/adamantium alloy. MADE OF. Which is thousands of times more volume then just hull plating (even if it was 90/10 alloy). Adamantine hull plating that way is more of an afterthought for spare change. So, there IS precedent for lots of Adamantine out there, certainly far more then you'd find on Golarion, which basically got what is there from the Trinity falling out of the sky, and meteors over time.
The 'raw material' cost of adamantine includes material AND labor, i.e. you have to labor to equal the materials cost to actually make something. It is worth noting that if you screw up, you still get to salvage the actual materials...so it stands to reason the actual materials cost is much less then what you are inferring vs market cost, and furthermore, adamantine is a star metal...there's going to be lots more up in the sky then down on the planet.
You are correct on PAO, I was misled because James Jacobs refers to his allowing use of this spell to transmute magical weapons into other metals for upgrades, and I didn't bother to confirm that detail. A house rule, obviously.
Fabricate, however, still stands.
Just look at it with an eye towards balance. If you can upgrade the damage output of an ship to ship energy weapon, plating with raw adamantium shouldn't be that out of line. it isn't like you're making thousands of suits of plate armor with it...it's just slabs of metal, most of which would thereafter be largely unusable for use in making plate armor, having 'already set'.
==Aelryinth
BTW, you talking with Legendary Games and their Planets AP, coordinating with this? Just curious.
==Aelryinth
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I contacted Legendary at the outset of this project to see where we could collaborate but to be honest they're so busy with their own product releases they didn't have time to consider coordination. I'll reach out again as development continues to see what/where we could link into each other. Even if it's as basic as we say something like "Planet X from the Legendary Planet AP is located in sector 1100112 of quadrant Mephistopheles and "Porphyra from Purple Duck Games is located in sector 90012 of quadrant Asmodeus." Then we could direct buyers of this product to the referenced product for full details. Unfortunately, without permission from Legendary Games we can't reference their IP. However, with Porphyra, that's a 100% OGL term so we could theoretically place it on a galactic star map etc.
Ok a bit of a ramble but that's where we're at now in regards to collaborations or coordination.
Thank you again for your input, Aelryinth!
I'm not advocating adamantine piercing munitions, I'm noting that ADAMANTINE munitions exist, and so adamantine hulls should exist to defy them.
This is one of the reasons that I have deep and troubling concerns about power creep and the arms race.
Adamantine piercing attacks already exist...they are called touch attacks and AoE attacks, generally energy assaults. Against such things, Adamantine is basically only a slightly superior form of energy resistance for a closed-hull vessel.
Therefore, resolving adamantine-piercing attacks with adamantine makes sense because...?
Enchanting an entire hull is no different thematically then the cost of enchanting a Storm Giant's Zweihander or Plate mail or Tower Shield being EXACTLY the same amount as a halfling's dagger or leather armor or buckler. Pathfinder doesn't care about size. It's all one entity. the real variation will be in the material, not the magic.
I'm not convinced by this particular argument. The cost of enchanting a storm giant's zweihander, plate mail or tower shield being exactly the same amount as a halfling's dagger or buckler still assumes items on a personal scale. Perhaps a storm giant's zweihander uses fifty times the amount of material as a halfling's dagger, and that's a pretty large difference. It is still not, however, the difference between a human's plate mail and the equivalent of seventy three thousand suits of human-sized plate mail. Magic doesn't universally scale that way, and there's no specific reason to assume that it either does, or that it should. After all, you can strip all of that plating off of an enemy's vessel and you have the material to create seventy three thousand suits of human-sized plate mail for your Army of Doom (73,512 to be precise)... All for the price of the material plus the cost to enchant only one of those suits. That's a savings of 1,323,198,000 gp... Unless you rule that if you try to strip the plating off, only enough material for one such suit of plate mail carries the enchantment (roughly 5% of one five-by-five plate) and all the rest is regular adamantine, but that would be rather silly, since if you knock that one special plate off, then the entire vessel loses its enchantment. However, I suppose you could assume that if that one mystery plate remains attached to all the other plates, they all retain the bonus, but it's far more logical to just calculate the pricing based upon the amount of material you're using.
So, you're probably going to have to go the extra step and actually set the cost of enchanting the hulls of ships. If you want to base on size/volume, then just add multipliers, but it's a slight departure from the existing standards. Note that at tech levels, there IS no material armor against kinetic weapons traveling at miles/second...it's all just liquid against projectiles moving that fast. The place it would be effective is marginal reduction of energy-based attacks against the hull.
Setting the cost of enchanting a vessel is certainly more reasonable, but it's going to be somewhat cost prohibitive to prevent the sort of abuse as described above (and coincidentally, was the entire point). As for reduction of energy-based attacks against the hull, that's something that can be handled in a variety of ways. Doing so with plates of adamantine (enchanted or otherwise) is certainly a valid option, but certainly not the most cost effective.
Theoretically, it would not be much different then buying magically hardened walls, since that is basically what you are doing, you aren't making intricate armor.
The intricacy is not the issue, as noted above. That is, unfortunately, a red herring.
You were missing the point on the Trinity. The ship was made of a steel/adamantium alloy. MADE OF. Which is thousands of times more volume then just hull plating (even if it was 90/10 alloy). Adamantine hull plating that way is more of an afterthought for spare change. So, there IS precedent for lots of Adamantine out there, certainly far more then you'd find on Golarion, which basically got what is there from the Trinity falling out of the sky, and meteors over time.
I apologize. I may have missed the point where you informed me of the exact makeup of the adamantine alloy (Like a 20/80 adamantine/other ratio, for example, so that an accurate apples-to-apples comparison could be made? Is it a 5 parts per million ratio?). Regardless of whether it's made of adamantine alloy or not, there is no default assumption that the amount of adamantine use is objectively greater than one inch thick five-by-five adamantine plates. You could build your ship out of one inch thick five-by-five adamantine plates, if you can find enough adamantine.
With regard to the Trinity, I suspect that I may not be missing the point. I'm going to quote something out of Fires of Creation and bold a few points.
When the phrase "Numerian Steel" is used, the speaker is usually, knowingly or not, referring to an iron/adamantine alloy called glaucite. This dark gray metal is the material of choice for hulls and starship superstructures, and is what constitutes the walls, floors, and ceilings of the strange ruins found throughout Numeria. Without more advanced technology, glaucite is extremely difficult to work with. Because the metal isn't much better than steel for forging weapons or armor, and the process of extracting the adamantine from it is so expensive and time consuming that the resulting adamantine isn't worth the effort, Numerian scavengers have, by and large, left the walls and floors of the structures buried in the region untouched. It's simply easier to scavenge smaller objects or work with normal iron or steel in the long run.
This does not instill a lot of confidence in me that the amount of adamantine that you can get out of the glaucite alloy is very high. This may suggest that Paizo also sees a concern in making large amounts of adamantine easily available to players.
The 'raw material' cost of adamantine includes material AND labor, i.e. you have to labor to equal the materials cost to actually make something. It is worth noting that if you screw up, you still get to salvage the actual materials...so it stands to reason the actual materials cost is much less then what you are inferring vs market cost, and furthermore, adamantine is a star metal...there's going to be lots more up in the sky then down on the planet.
Actually, I was giving you the raw materials cost. Also, despite the fact that adamantine is a "star metal" (I would appreciate a reference on that.), that does not mean that it is an especially abundant "star metal". I don't see anything in the text of any of the Iron Gods material to suggest that it is, unless there is a reference that I'm missing that states otherwise.
You are correct on PAO, I was misled because James Jacobs refers to his allowing use of this spell to transmute magical weapons into other metals for upgrades, and I didn't bother to confirm that detail. A house rule, obviously.
Fabricate, however, still stands.
Fabricate converts material of one sort into a product that is of the same material. Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell. The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication. If you work with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet. So, it would convert raw adamantine into an adamantine product. It also requires, as a material component, "the original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created". You're not going to save yourself any money with the fabricate spell.
Just look at it with an eye towards balance.
I am, as noted by my concerns about making huge amounts of adamantine readily available to players.
If you can upgrade the damage output of an ship to ship energy weapon, plating with raw adamantium shouldn't be that out of line. it isn't like you're making thousands of suits of plate armor with it...it's just slabs of metal, most of which would thereafter be largely unusable for use in making plate armor, having 'already set'.
Actually, as I pointed out, you could scrap a ship and sell off enough adamantine to make seventy three thousand suits of adamantine plate mail. Glaucite, on the other hand, seems to be another matter, but the original question wasn't regarding glaucite.
Again, thank you for your input. I'm finding this to be very valuable.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@Seth Dresari: Have you thought perhaps that they chose Starfinder to link with Pathfinder?
This seems to be Pathfinder-compatible, but not actually the Golarion setting. A while ago, I had wondered about something regarding the Golarion setting, and I'm wondering how this work will address it, if it does at all.
In the Golarion setting, the Golarion star system as well as every other star system exists in the Prime Material Plane. All living beings from every planet go into the Flow of Souls and get divvied out to their Final Destinations. But living creatures can also Plane Shift and travel to these Final Destinations and come back to the living world.
I don't really think it's an issue that Plane-shifting Golarionites never encounter Plane-shifting Vulcans while in the Outer Planes. Those things are infinitely big. But Golarion has also sent mortals to the Outer Planes in the form of ascended Gods. Even if Vulcans who have never Plane-shifted haven't heard of Irori or Iomedae, there should still be some who have. And likewise, some Plane-shifting Golarionites should have heard of Beelzespock, patron deity of Logic and Fascination.
Although, it also raises the question of which Outer Planes exist, are they uniform for all worlds, or do certain Final Destinations not exist for some people (and if so, what is the factor that segregates them)?
Does Sto-Vo-Kor exist? What about Heaven or the Fields of Elysium? Assuming an assortment of sentient-life-bearing planets, how many billions of distinct afterlives are there?
Can non-Klingons get into Sto-Vo-Kor? Do they succeed, and simply perceive it as a part of Valhalla or Valhalla with a different skin? Do they see their fellow denizens of Valhalla as fellow Vikings, despite those fellow Vikings having lived as Klingons (and are those Klingons perceiving themselves and their fellow denizens of Sto-Vo-Kor as Klingons in Sto-Vo-Kor, despite some of those Klingons having previously been Vikings)?
If a Kryptonian is sent to Golarion and dies, does he go to Golarion Heaven or Kryptonian Heaven? What if he lived his entire life not knowing he was Kryptonian? Is his selection of Final Destinations dependent on what he's aware of (such that, if he had been looking forward to meeting his dead wife in the afterlife, does learning that he's Kryptonian close the book on him ever doing that)?
...
That's what I wondered about the Golarion setting. It doesn't sound like your work assumes that same setting, but I'd still like to know if you have any thoughts about how that would get addressed.
Thanks.
|
I always like to imagine that the various forms of afterlife exist outside of perceived time and space, meaning that once you have ascended into a higher form of existence time is completely irrelevant to you, both forwards and backwards. Even if you feel like you have been there for centuries, you might have only been up there for seconds. If you feel like you've only been up there for seconds, it might have already been centuries. Maybe you are experiencing the afterlife mere moments before you have actually died.
This is turning into a metaphysics debate.
Back on the subject of PF, though... Do Golarion kitsune go straight to Inari, even though she doesn't exist on the Golarion pantheon? In the original Japanese mythology, all kitsune were Inari's subjects.
It doesn't sound like you rwork assumes the same setting (Golarian), but I'd still like to know if you have any thoughts how that would be addressed.
3PP aren't allowed to use nor reference the Golarian setting in any way in any product, as that is Paizo's IP only.
Back on the subject of PF, though... Do Golarion kitsune go straight to Inari, even though she doesn't exist on the Golarion pantheon? In the original Japanese mythology, all kitsune were Inari's subjects.
Inari must exist in Pathfinder for kitsune to have a chance in going to her.
It may be useful to imagine the gods and pantheons like the poster-children for special clubs. Once you're a member of that special club, you gain an all-access pass to their version of paradise (or punishment), but you can't get past the bouncer unless you're dead (or you sneak in through an emergency exit). So, if you worship Fenris Kul, you go to that version of the afterlife, but if your best buddy worships Zon-Kuthon, they go to that version of the afterlife.
Bodhizen,
It's one of the listed star metals in Pathfinder, just the most well known.
Correction, SKYMETALS. Here's a link listing them:
http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Skymetal
For the adamantine hull plating, all you have to do is rule that the alloy of adamantine used 'sets up' and is a) not of the quality level used for personal wear and b) cannot be reshaped into anything other then more raw slabs. I.e. use the Glaucite argument. Then just figure costs as normal. If players want to use it for castles or something, just price it as a magically hardened wall, which is all it basically is.
It's basically just an off-hand way of saying 'hardened hull'. Nothing more or less. Certainly isn't going to help with ramming!
You must have missed my second question about the legendary planets AP. :) talking with them at all?
==Aelryinth
Thank you again for your input, Aelryinth.
Bodhizen,
It's one of the listed star metals in Pathfinder, just the most well known.
Correction, SKYMETALS. Here's a link listing them:
http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Skymetal
Thank you for the link, Aelryinth. It still remains a subjective designation. Knowing that it is the most common skymetal does not dispel any sense of vagueness as to exactly how common it may be. Additionally, the citation your link references couches adamantine in terms of its commonality in a paragraph that explicitly refers to the land of Numeria, so it may possibly be the most common skymetal in Numeria, but not the most common skymetal. Here is the full paragraph for reference purposes.
While its barren landscape leaves little for trade, Numeria is famous in the more civilized southern lands as the primary source of skymetals, seven rare metallic alloys sheared from the hull of the crashing starship, all useful in the creation of unique weapons and artifacts and each with its own distinct properties. Of these, adamantine is the most common, and word of the wonders of “Numerian steel” has long since spread to the farthest corners of Avistan and Garund.
Regardless, it may or may not be the most common skymetal in the Starfinder setting. That's something that I will discuss with John and Loki.
For the adamantine hull plating, all you have to do is rule that the alloy of adamantine used 'sets up' and is a) not of the quality level used for personal wear and b) cannot be reshaped into anything other then more raw slabs. I.e. use the Glaucite argument. Then just figure costs as normal. If players want to use it for castles or something, just price it as a magically hardened wall, which is all it basically is.
As I have stated on multiple occasions, the original question was about adamantine, not about adamantine alloy. The two are not the same thing.
At this point, adamantine is a non-starter.
Glaucite is another matter. First, it's Paizo's IP, so I can't touch it. Secondly, if I were to create an additional adamantine alloy, which I am not inclined to do, though I'm not ruling out other alloys, I have license to set up the rules surrounding such an alloy in a fashion that prevents the kind of shenanigans that I'm concerned about. If I couldn't prevent such shenanigans, I wouldn't create such an alloy.
It's basically just an off-hand way of saying 'hardened hull'. Nothing more or less. Certainly isn't going to help with ramming!
Unless it does.
You must have missed my second question about the legendary planets AP. :) talking with them at all?
==Aelryinth
John answered that question.
Thanks again for your input.
On the subject of odd materials for a ship, as a personal project on my G+ page posted in August 2014 (you'll have to scroll down to find it), but I have created a Spelljammmer like ship out of the husk of an undead collosal beetle (hull being the exoskeleton), I call the Scarab Beetle ship. Like a Spelljammer ship, the top deck is weapons platform but the shell over the thorax can close and contain that top deck. The deck below houses the pilot bridge, crew quarters, messhall, restrooms and cargo hold. Because the ship is a giant dead beetle, my pilot is also a necromancer and the beetle is capable of walking and using its mouth pincers to attack other ships. Also on the top deck are smaller 6 man carrying beetles that can be used as ship's boats or fighters.
Perhaps its too exotic for your needs, but I thought it was a cool idea for a Spelljammer like ship.
I'm very happy to hear about this project and I look forward to any updates that you post.
One thing that I really hope you are not converting or using is the non-sensical descriptions and rules for 'phlogiston'. It was a big deal-breaker for many players, I found. Along with the many logical contradictions in the rules and setting.
I'm very happy to hear about this project and I look forward to any updates that you post.
One thing that I really hope you are not converting or using is the non-sensical descriptions and rules for 'phlogiston'. It was a big deal-breaker for many players, I found. Along with the many logical contradictions in the rules and setting.
Thank you very much for your interest!
So... If we want a nasty letter from Hasbro, we could set up Starfinder to use crystal spheres to contain planetary systems, and we could declare that those spheres are floating around in plogiston. The design team agreed that might not be the best way to get this product out to you. So, you're probably not going to see phlogiston... Unless we want to use it and first get permission to use the bush from Necromancer Games.
Does this address your concern to your satisfaction?
On the subject of odd materials for a ship, as a personal project on my G+ page posted in August 2014 (you'll have to scroll down to find it), but I have created a Spelljammmer like ship out of the husk of an undead collosal beetle (hull being the exoskeleton), I call the Scarab Beetle ship. Like a Spelljammer ship, the top deck is weapons platform but the shell over the thorax can close and contain that top deck. The deck below houses the pilot bridge, crew quarters, messhall, restrooms and cargo hold. Because the ship is a giant dead beetle, my pilot is also a necromancer and the beetle is capable of walking and using its mouth pincers to attack other ships. Also on the top deck are smaller 6 man carrying beetles that can be used as ship's boats or fighters.
Perhaps its too exotic for your needs, but I thought it was a cool idea for a Spelljammer like ship.
I've seen similar ideas around the web. I don't think that this is the route that we're going with Starfinder, but I very much appreciate your input and suggestion.
Eeek! I need this! This character is a space pirate, so this book will be indispensably helpful, I hope! :D
That said, will it be PDF only I assume, or are you hoping to make some actual books available? I'll buy both if possible :D
I've seen similar ideas around the web. I don't think that this is the route that we're going with Starfinder, but I very much appreciate your input and suggestion.On the subject of odd materials for a ship, as a personal project on my G+ page posted in August 2014 (you'll have to scroll down to find it), but I have created a Spelljammmer like ship out of the husk of an undead collosal beetle (hull being the exoskeleton), I call the Scarab Beetle ship. Like a Spelljammer ship, the top deck is weapons platform but the shell over the thorax can close and contain that top deck. The deck below houses the pilot bridge, crew quarters, messhall, restrooms and cargo hold. Because the ship is a giant dead beetle, my pilot is also a necromancer and the beetle is capable of walking and using its mouth pincers to attack other ships. Also on the top deck are smaller 6 man carrying beetles that can be used as ship's boats or fighters.
Perhaps its too exotic for your needs, but I thought it was a cool idea for a Spelljammer like ship.
Hmm, that actually kind of reminds me of the Canadian Sci-Fi movie I Worship His Shadow (and it's 3 sequels and subsequent tv series, all now collectively known as LEXX)
Eeek! I need this! This character is a space pirate, so this book will be indispensably helpful, I hope! :D
That said, will it be PDF only I assume, or are you hoping to make some actual books available? I'll buy both if possible :D
That is a question for John. I would imagine that it might depend upon sales, but I'm sure he'll be thrilled at your interest!
Hmm, that actually kind of reminds me of the Canadian Sci-Fi movie I Worship His Shadow (and it's 3 sequels and subsequent tv series, all now collectively known as LEXX)
LEXX was fun, but too short-lived.
Thank you so much for your interest!
Question question!
Is the product going to be more primarily concerned with smaller vessels (for iconic examples see Serenity or the Millenium Falcon) or large vessels (The USS Enterprise-D or SGU's Destiny) or more towards huge vessels capable of supporting town or city sized populations? (Imperial Star Destroyers, the massive space faring vessels of Warhammer 40k)
Past that what do you see as the primary narrative hook of the book? People using these vessels to travel to different and unique settings to deal with things? People dealing with the problems aboard their vessels and discovering the capabilities of ancient or unknown technology. Or dealing with the hazards and interesting bits inherent to a populated solar system; i.e. wandering traders, space pirates, space anomalies and beasties.
Is the book built on the idea that ships are common and has rules for buying new ones and upgrading ships, or that -the ship- of the game is special and will be a unique entity once a campaign begins.
So many different approaches and angles you can take!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Mr. Bodhizen and Mr. Loki (and Mr. Ryest),
Have you lined up artists yet? If you haven't, I'd definitely recommend Ryan Rhodes, who has done excellent 3PP work before and really nails alien races and ships.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Thank you for your questions and input, ABCoLD and Ambrosia Slaad!
Question question!
Is the product going to be more primarily concerned with smaller vessels (for iconic examples see Serenity or the Millenium Falcon) or large vessels (The USS Enterprise-D or SGU's Destiny) or more towards huge vessels capable of supporting town or city sized populations? (Imperial Star Destroyers, the massive space faring vessels of Warhammer 40k)
One of the things that Loki and I discussed early on was that we wanted the flexibility for people to be able to play on the Serenity, or pilot an X-Wing, or command the USS Enterprise. So, there's going to be enough variability in vessel creation to accommodate for all of those options. We're only going so far on the upper end (at this point) with vessel size because what we don't want to do is to have your GM throw a vessel at you that is able to swallow up an entire metropolis right out of the gate.
However, if that's the kind of game that you want to play, planetary invasion is something that we're more than willing (and in some ways, eager) to address in a future supplement.
Past that what do you see as the primary narrative hook of the book? People using these vessels to travel to different and unique settings to deal with things? People dealing with the problems aboard their vessels and discovering the capabilities of ancient or unknown technology. Or dealing with the hazards and interesting bits inherent to a populated solar system; i.e. wandering traders, space pirates, space anomalies and beasties.
It's not set in stone, but I'm leaning toward one of those three options that you mentioned.
Is the book built on the idea that ships are common and has rules for buying new ones and upgrading ships, or that -the ship- of the game is special and will be a unique entity once a campaign begins.
In some ways, it's both because you have the option to make either one of those a reality.
So many different approaches and angles you can take!
That's one of the most exciting things about this project!
Mr. Bodhizen and Mr. Loki (and Mr. Ryest),
Have you lined up artists yet? If you haven't, I'd definitely recommend Ryan Rhodes, who has done excellent 3PP work before and really nails alien races and ships.
Thank you for that lead. I'm sure that John will find that most useful!
Best wishes! Keep those questions coming!
Okay this is an incredibly unfair and loaded question but I think a very important one; Exactly what can Starfinder offer that makes it stand out from existing products?
Because I have an invested interest in the subject and a large collection I see a lot of space-based tools for Pathfinder including:
Not including the assorted technological gear/class books.
I can note what I am lacking in these books or major downsides that make them less useable if that would make things easier to answer but overall some of these I already recommend to people who want to interact with outer space and I want to know where d20pfsrd publishing would differ or offer anything new.
Having played 2nded Spelljammer and Starfrontier, If you can capture a mix of the two I think you will have a winner!
Along with Ambrosia Slaad's question, do you have any cartographers assigned to the project? I am a pro cartographer who can do ship deck plans, as well as any standard maps for star ports, planets, etc. I've done sci-fi deck plans for Legendary Games recently, airship deckplans for Stormbunny Studios earlier this year, the original hand-drawn map of the City of Kasai for Paizo Publishing Jade Regent AP, and all the maps for the Kaidan setting of Japanese horror (PFRPG), among many others? I pointed to my G+ community up thread which features both my hand-drawn and purely digital maps - as samples of my work.
Okay this is an incredibly unfair and loaded question but I think a very important one; Exactly what can Starfinder offer that makes it stand out from existing products?
Because I have an invested interest in the subject and a large collection I see a lot of space-based tools for Pathfinder including:
Not including the assorted technological gear/class books.
I can note what I am lacking in these books or major downsides that make them less useable if that would make things easier to answer but overall some of these I already recommend to people who want to interact with outer space and I want to know where d20pfsrd publishing would differ or offer anything new.
I will admit that I am not as familiar with those products as you are, Malwing, so I cannot adequately answer that question, even if I start looking into them now. I wouldn't be able to answer that question for a while.
What I can say is that we're looking to offer you a comprehensive package that you can use as a single product without having to refer to multiple books. This does not mean that if you wanted to use some of the material that came out with the Iron Gods Adventure Paths (such as the Technology Guide) or other third party publisher products, you wouldn't need to have those books, but you're not going to need to grab book after book after book to play an adventure in space.
However, if you would like to send me a private message and let me know your thoughts on what's lacking in those other products, I would appreciate it very much.
Having played 2nded Spelljammer and Starfrontier, If you can capture a mix of the two I think you will have a winner!
That is the goal!
Along with Ambrosia Slaad's question, do you have any cartographers assigned to the project? I am a pro cartographer who can do ship deck plans, as well as any standard maps for star ports, planets, etc. I've done sci-fi deck plans for Legendary Games recently, airship deckplans for Stormbunny Studios earlier this year, the original hand-drawn map of the City of Kasai for Paizo Publishing Jade Regent AP, and all the maps for the Kaidan setting of Japanese horror (PFRPG), among many others? I pointed to my G+ community up thread which features both my hand-drawn and purely digital maps - as samples of my work.
That's all something that has to go through John. I'm just working on written material, not the artwork or the layout. However, if you wish to contact him, I'm sure he would really appreciate your information.
Is there a release date in mind for this product, however approximate?
Are there plans to release this product via a Kickstarter campaign?
Those are also questions for John. We haven't done any Kickstarter projects together to date, but that doesn't mean that I can speak for him as to whether this could be one or not.
Thanks, everybody! Keep those questions coming!
|
I always liked the idea that magic worked best on a small personal scale. Anything bigger than or more complex than a siege engine or a small vehicle was beyond the realm of mortal magic basically making it an artifact that came with its own set of headaches. You could have a unique starship made out of adamantium; however, it requires something unpleasant or rare to function and happens to have quite a few drawbacks. The way around this was the various quasi-magic technologies like clockwork or steam that emulate magic and technology without being either.
I really like the idea of flying around in ships and adventuring across the cosmos! I think you have to make a choice early on whether or not you want to go the fantastic route or the scientific route. I'm using the "personal magic" path for a Fading Suns project where science and magic both exist and function normally but magic is limited in scope and power. For the Spelljammer/Space: 1889 project I'm taking inspiration from Eberron's magitech and it is science that is limited in scope and power. Science and technology still exists as small gadgets, simple electronics, steam power and firearms. I guess on way to put it is that in Fading Suns magic is a fringe cottage industry while science is the fringe cottage industry in Spelljammer/Space: 1889.
Anyways, I look forward to blasting across the universe in wooden ships or ironclads or highly modded freighters!
SM
P.S. -
The supporting material for Skull and Shackles had a great section on ship modifications. I was going to use that as the basis for my own straight Spelljammer/Space: 1889 conversion.
I always liked the idea that magic worked best on a small personal scale. Anything bigger than or more complex than a siege engine or a small vehicle was beyond the realm of mortal magic basically making it an artifact that came with its own set of headaches. You could have a unique starship made out of adamantium; however, it requires something unpleasant or rare to function and happens to have quite a few drawbacks. The way around this was the various quasi-magic technologies like clockwork or steam that emulate magic and technology without being either.
I really like the idea of flying around in ships and adventuring across the cosmos! I think you have to make a choice early on whether or not you want to go the fantastic route or the scientific route. I'm using the "personal magic" path for a Fading Suns project where science and magic both exist and function normally but magic is limited in scope and power. For the Spelljammer/Space: 1889 project I'm taking inspiration from Eberron's magitech and it is science that is limited in scope and power. Science and technology still exists as small gadgets, simple electronics, steam power and firearms. I guess on way to put it is that in Fading Suns magic is a fringe cottage industry while science is the fringe cottage industry in Spelljammer/Space: 1889.
Anyways, I look forward to blasting across the universe in wooden ships or ironclads or highly modded freighters!
SM
P.S. -
The supporting material for Skull and Shackles had a great section on ship modifications. I was going to use that as the basis for my own straight Spelljammer/Space: 1889 conversion.
We've been paying close attention to the Skull & Shackles material.
Okay, I know I've said this before to the contempt of 3pp folks but I'll risk it again. You're asking us to give money to you. You're asking us to buy something not Paizo and to go 3pp for your product. I do not think it unreasonable to hope that you, the person asking for my money, is at least as aware of the marketplace and the competitive products within it as I, the consumer am. The folks from Boylan soda may not drink Coca-Cola buy they know what they offer.
I will admit that I am not as familiar with those products as you are, Malwing, so I cannot adequately answer that question, even if I start looking into them now. I wouldn't be able to answer that question for a while.
Why did your questions engender contempt from other third party publishers? I mean, I understand that the folks from Boylan Soda are quite likely aware of Coca-Cola when they started marketing their product, but were they paying attention to Nuky Rose Soda or Brain Wash Blue before entering the market?
Best wishes!
Okay, I know I've said this before to the contempt of 3pp folks but I'll risk it again. You're asking us to give money to you. You're asking us to buy something not Paizo and to go 3pp for your product. I do not think it unreasonable to hope that you, the person asking for my money, is at least as aware of the marketplace and the competitive products within it as I, the consumer am. The folks from Boylan soda may not drink Coca-Cola buy they know what they offer.
I will admit that I am not as familiar with those products as you are, Malwing, so I cannot adequately answer that question, even if I start looking into them now. I wouldn't be able to answer that question for a while.
I did admit that it was "...an incredibly unfair and loaded question..." so I can understand the answer. For the health of the product at hand I'm working on a document giving a short blurb about each of them and what they offer so even if it doesn't help answer the question it does shine a little light on what they are competing with. I'll post it here when I'm done.
Okay, I know I've said this before to the contempt of 3pp folks but I'll risk it again. You're asking us to give money to you. You're asking us to buy something not Paizo and to go 3pp for your product. I do not think it unreasonable to hope that you, the person asking for my money, is at least as aware of the marketplace and the competitive products within it as I, the consumer am. The folks from Boylan soda may not drink Coca-Cola buy they know what they offer.
I will admit that I am not as familiar with those products as you are, Malwing, so I cannot adequately answer that question, even if I start looking into them now. I wouldn't be able to answer that question for a while.
I did admit that it was "...an incredibly unfair and loaded question..." so I can understand the answer. For the health of the product at hand I'm working on a document giving a short blurb about each of them and what they offer so even if it doesn't help answer the question it does shine a little light on what they are competing with. I'll post it here when I'm done.
I thought that your question was reasonable, Malwing. But, let's assume for a moment that I was absolutely unfamiliar with all of those products that you'd mentioned before. Are you going to go out and spend $62.96 on some products just to see if you're doing anything like what they're doing? I understand the basics of market research, but I generally leave that to John's marketing team.
I thought that your question was reasonable, Malwing. But, let's assume for a moment that I was absolutely unfamiliar with all of those products that you'd mentioned before. Are you going to go out and spend $62.96 on some products just to see if you're doing anything like what they're doing? I understand the basics of market research, but I generally leave that to John's marketing team.Okay, I know I've said this before to the contempt of 3pp folks but I'll risk it again. You're asking us to give money to you. You're asking us to buy something not Paizo and to go 3pp for your product. I do not think it unreasonable to hope that you, the person asking for my money, is at least as aware of the marketplace and the competitive products within it as I, the consumer am. The folks from Boylan soda may not drink Coca-Cola buy they know what they offer.
I will admit that I am not as familiar with those products as you are, Malwing, so I cannot adequately answer that question, even if I start looking into them now. I wouldn't be able to answer that question for a while.
I did admit that it was "...an incredibly unfair and loaded question..." so I can understand the answer. For the health of the product at hand I'm working on a document giving a short blurb about each of them and what they offer so even if it doesn't help answer the question it does shine a little light on what they are competing with. I'll post it here when I'm done.
Understandable. One reason why I'm writing up a bit about each one I mentioned, which is actually turning out to be a long analysis of the state of space based supplements in Pathfinder, to go through that trouble since I already have spent $63.96 on those products.
Although I think a more fair question to ask is probably; How complete of an experience is this? I understand that being post-Technology Guide is a huge leg up in reducing complexity and the amount of new things to make but if I take away the technology guide material and any kind of focus on general items I somewhat expect variable but simple vehicles with easy translation or compatibility with normal vehicle rules, (This includes one occupant, mech, and ship type vehicles.) a means of far ranged space travel whether it's warping, hyperdrive or whatever, environmental rules, and space suits maybe powered armor. For the most part in addition to the Technology Guide that's the basics of what you need for space-based adventuring that doesn't exist in the rules as it is. If that all has a high degree of compatibility with the rules as they exist then its easier to adjust and things like alien races, setting, new weapons, new classes are just icing but other products do have the full shebang from races to vehicles. That's not including tech based classes, psionic stuff and new weapons and armor.
We had a discussion in another thread on just what kind of transport system is available on ships in many cases determines the kind of setting that you have.
If you have hyper/warp drive, it takes time to get from place to place. Thus, the setting becomes 'worlds as islands'. Hyperdrive 'lanes' that accelerate travel become highways. Space becomes an ocean to traverse at FTL speeds.
If you have 'teleport drives', allowing you to pop from one location to the other, it becomes 'worlds as centers of goods/recharge points', and dependent on just how far you can teleport between them, forming 'product lanes' across the galaxy as you teleport from one developed cluster to the next.
If you have 'wormhole travel', then it becomes 'worlds as ports', with the wormholes being the ports, and they become the important things to control. Whether natural or artificial, whoever controls them controls traffic into or out of them, affecting everything on this side. Teleport drives or hyperdrive exists to get to and from the wormhole points.
Lastly, you have to figure in communications. IS there instant communication? If so, you can keep together a far flung community, since everyone can stay current on affairs, orders can be given in real time, and people coordinate across time and space.
If you must use courier ships that can FTL when coms can't, the size of the area you can control is going to be limited by speed of your vessels, and great empires simply won't be possible because the communication speed will be so low.
All elements to consider!
==Aelryinth
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Understandable. One reason why I'm writing up a bit about each one I mentioned, which is actually turning out to be a long analysis of the state of space based supplements in Pathfinder, to go through that trouble since I already have spent $63.96 on those products.
Although I think a more fair question to ask is probably; How complete of an experience is this? I understand that being post-Technology Guide is a huge leg up in reducing complexity and the amount of new things to make but if I take away the technology guide material and any kind of focus on general items I somewhat expect variable but simple vehicles with easy translation or compatibility with normal vehicle rules, (This includes one occupant, mech, and ship type vehicles.) a means of far ranged space travel whether it's warping, hyperdrive or whatever, environmental rules, and space suits maybe powered armor. For the most part in addition to the Technology Guide that's the basics of what you need for space-based adventuring that doesn't exist in the rules as it is. If that all has a high degree of compatibility with the rules as they exist then its easier to adjust and things like alien races, setting, new weapons, new classes are just icing but other products do have the full shebang from races to vehicles. That's not including tech based classes, psionic stuff and new weapons and armor.
It will cover nearly everything that you've listed here, but I cannot be any more specific than I've already been in this thread without violating my NDA.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
We had a discussion in another thread on just what kind of transport system is available on ships in many cases determines the kind of setting that you have.
If you have hyper/warp drive, it takes time to get from place to place. Thus, the setting becomes 'worlds as islands'. Hyperdrive 'lanes' that accelerate travel become highways. Space becomes an ocean to traverse at FTL speeds.
If you have 'teleport drives', allowing you to pop from one location to the other, it becomes 'worlds as centers of goods/recharge points', and dependent on just how far you can teleport between them, forming 'product lanes' across the galaxy as you teleport from one developed cluster to the next.
If you have 'wormhole travel', then it becomes 'worlds as ports', with the wormholes being the ports, and they become the important things to control. Whether natural or artificial, whoever controls them controls traffic into or out of them, affecting everything on this side. Teleport drives or hyperdrive exists to get to and from the wormhole points.
Yes.
Lastly, you have to figure in communications. IS there instant communication? If so, you can keep together a far flung community, since everyone can stay current on affairs, orders can be given in real time, and people coordinate across time and space.
Yes, there is.
If you must use courier ships that can FTL when coms can't, the size of the area you can control is going to be limited by speed of your vessels, and great empires simply won't be possible because the communication speed will be so low.
All elements to consider!
==Aelryinth
All considered. Thank you.
This is relevant to my interests. Also add my name to the list of people who like to see this in dead tree format. :)
I'm looking forward to this product. I've been wondering if anyone was gonna do a book like this one. I'm gonna have to keep an eye out for it.
my question is more in the neighborhood of: When can we expect to actually see the book? is there a prospective release date at this time?
I'm looking forward to this product. I've been wondering if anyone was gonna do a book like this one. I'm gonna have to keep an eye out for it.
my question is more in the neighborhood of: When can we expect to actually see the book? is there a prospective release date at this time?
That is a question for John (d20pfsrd.com).
I can't wait!
THIS IS AWESOME!
Please lean more towards spelljammer, less towards ray guns.
I agree with you on many things, brother, but on this we diverge.
I don't hate on SpellJammer, but I would prefer something more DragonStar.
Though a midway point between the two might prove amazing...
THIS IS AWESOME!
Please lean more towards spelljammer, less towards ray guns.
I agree with you on many things, brother, but on this we diverge.
I don't hate on SpellJammer, but I would prefer something more DragonStar.
Though a midway point between the two might prove amazing...
I see where you are coming from, but this is spacefinder, not...dragonfinder? Starfinder? No wait, this is starfinder. Uh...shut up! Spelljammer rules!
Honestly, most of Spelljammer is rules on ships, gravity planes, atmosphere envelopes, spelljammer helms - all setting specific rules. If you have the existing spelljammer rules theres no reason it needs to be written again, just use those rules as is, and then use Pathfinder for all NPCs, monsters, classes, archetypes, feats, spells, etc. There's nothing inherent in the Spelljammer rules that requires use of 1e or 2e rules.
For those who don't have the original Spelljammer rules, I can see a reason for someone who does to create an update (slightly altered as not to step on IP), but in its entirety it wouldn't be more than a couple dozen pages (30 at most), not any serious work.
Since so many companies (like Paizo, d20pfsrd.com and Legendary Games) are making sci-fi-fantasy settings, monsters, spells, technology, etc. You don't need to create anything beyond the basic Spelljammer conversion, as those companies are creating everything else for you.
Since you can still find old Spelljammer products on the market, why is there a need to convert?
Personally, I prefer sci-fi-fantasy games where my starship is an enclosed vehicle in the vaccuum of space, like any normal sci-fi game, and not using made-up physics to justify using sailing ships in space. If that's what you prefer then use the existing Spelljammer rules - why does anyone need to do that again?