is 4 attacks at level 3 doable?


Rules Questions


1st Level
Human Feat - Exotic Weapon Prof - Repeating Hand Crossbow
1st Level Feat - Two Weapon Fighting
1st Fighter Feat - Point Blank Shot

2nd Level
Bard Spells - Unseen Servant.

3rd Level
3rd Level Feat - Rapid Shot
2nd Fighter Feat - Rapid Reload

now, using Unseen Servant to pull the crossbow lever for you resulting in 4 attacks per turn at level 3?

Grand Lodge

Even if you could get your unseen servant to do what you're asking, rapid shot won't give you more than one extra attack.


This would be easier in melee getting extra natural attacks, suck as a bite or gore.


claudekennilol wrote:
Even if you could get your unseen servant to do what you're asking, rapid shot won't give you more than one extra attack.

ah okay, I figured it'd be one additional attack for each weapon, albeit at a -4-4-4-4


Leonhart Steelmane wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:
Even if you could get your unseen servant to do what you're asking, rapid shot won't give you more than one extra attack.
ah okay, I figured it'd be one additional attack for each weapon, albeit at a -4-4-4-4

Nope, just one extra attack.

Scarab Sages

You would have three Ranged attacks, at -4/-4/-4. You are also house ruling a repeating hand crossbow into existence, as the only varieties of repeating crossbow are standard and heavy.


Imbicatus wrote:
You would have three Ranged attacks, at -4/-4/-4. You are also house ruling a repeating hand crossbow into existence, as the only varieties of repeating crossbow are standard and heavy.

with an additional -2 penalty 2 light repeating crossbows can be shot with one hand each

Scarab Sages

Entryhazard wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
You would have three Ranged attacks, at -4/-4/-4. You are also house ruling a repeating hand crossbow into existence, as the only varieties of repeating crossbow are standard and heavy.
with an additional -2 penalty 2 light repeating crossbows can be shot with one hand each

Leaving with three attacks at -6/-6/-6. You would have better damage output with just a single light crossbow.


Note that if you can get the weapons to exist, this is doable at 4th with an old-spell-list Summoner in the party since that's when they learn Haste. Buut you have to get the weapons to exist.

'Course, you can get six attacks at level 2 with a Ragebred Vivisectionist or Barbarian... it might even be plausible at first with a Bloodrager?

Drop the feat on Extra Feature, a trait on Adopted for Razortusk, claws from your bloodline... yup. Claw/Claw/Bite/Gore/Hoof/Hoof.

Sczarni

Tengus at 1st level can get 5.

Kick/Kick/Claw/Claw/Bite.

Combines Two-Weapon Fighting with Unarmed Strikes and Natural Attacks, with each attack utilizing a different limb. It's just that the attack penalties are atrocious.


Claw or Maw Tiefling with claws plus adopted (Orc) Tusked is three attacks at level 1. Alchemist 2 for discovery Vestigial Arm and Ranger 2 with extra discovery Vestigial Arm as well as Natural Combat Style Aspect of the Beast (Claws) gets you five attacks by level 4.

Scarab Sages

Vestigial arms specifically never grant extra attacks, that doesn't work.


Imbicatus wrote:
Vestigial arms specifically never grant extra attacks, that doesn't work.

NEFREET!!! You are needed again!

or wait, maybe i can post the link this time...

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mer7&page=3?Alchemist-Vestigial-Arm-discov ery-question#104

Does that work?

Edit: Copy and paste it to bring it up, i am not strong enough to hyperlink it :/

Sczarni

I believe the logic was that, since a Tengu can already utilize 5 attacks, if said Tengu were to sprout two Vestigial Arms, then that Tengu could perform Dagger/Dagger/Claw/Claw/Bite, since that is the same number of attacks the Tengu was already capable of (5 attacks vs 5 attacks). No "extra" attacks were achieved.

But, to confound the issue, said Tengu could not grow an extra set of claws on those two Vestigial Arms and get Claw/Claw/Claw/Claw/Bite, because that was not an attack routine that would have been capable when the Tengu only had 2 arms.


The vestigial hand can be used to attack, but only at the expense of other limbs' actions


Kasatha Ninja 2/Fighter 1 can make 7 shuriken attacks at level 3.
4 from Multiweapon Fighting, 1 from Rapid Shot, and 2 from Flurry of Stars.
You can squeeze in a secondary bite attack if you grab adopted (tusked) as a trait.
So that's 8 attacks at level 3.

If you're okay with being awful at combat, you can get 8 attacks at level 1, as a rageborn skinwalker bloodrager:
2 unarmed strikes from two-weapon fighting (without the feats Two-Weapon Fighting or Improved Unarmed Strike), 2 secondary claws from your bloodrager power, 2 secondary hooves from your change shape ability, 1 secondary gore from Extra Feature, 1 secondary bite from adopted (tusked).


The Tiefling works on the same logic, with bite and 2x claws he could, though hilariously inaccurately, attempt Unarmed strike as a kick x2, claw x2 and bite. By grabbing 2x Vestigial Arms and Aspect of the Beast he can attempt the same total number of attacks at a vastly improved accuracy of 3+ STR Mod at level 4.


Nefreet wrote:

I believe the logic was that, since a Tengu can already utilize 5 attacks, if said Tengu were to sprout two Vestigial Arms, then that Tengu could perform Dagger/Dagger/Claw/Claw/Bite, since that is the same number of attacks the Tengu was already capable of (5 attacks vs 5 attacks). No "extra" attacks were achieved.

But, to confound the issue, said Tengu could not grow an extra set of claws on those two Vestigial Arms and get Claw/Claw/Claw/Claw/Bite, because that was not an attack routine that would have been capable when the Tengu only had 2 arms.

As i understood the ruling, the arms are only concerned with the number of attacks made, not the quality. 5 = 5 with no thought to the damage or to hit bonus of those five so four claws would be possible so long as your character still had both legs to forgo unarmed strikes with.

Scarab Sages

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Torbyne wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Vestigial arms specifically never grant extra attacks, that doesn't work.

NEFREET!!! You are needed again!

or wait, maybe i can post the link this time...

Linkified

Does that work?

Edit: Copy and paste it to bring it up, i am not strong enough to hyperlink it :/

Based on that link, they could use Weapon/Weapon/Claw/Claw/Bite, because they could have Unarmed Strike/Unarmed Strike/Claw/Claw/Bite. They could not Claw/Claw/Claw/Claw/Bite, because that is two extra natural weapons that they did not have.


Imbicatus wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Vestigial arms specifically never grant extra attacks, that doesn't work.

NEFREET!!! You are needed again!

or wait, maybe i can post the link this time...

Linkified

Does that work?

Edit: Copy and paste it to bring it up, i am not strong enough to hyperlink it :/

Based on that link, they could use Weapon/Weapon/Claw/Claw/Bite, because they could have Unarmed Strike/Unarmed Strike/Claw/Claw/Bite. They could not Claw/Claw/Claw/Claw/Bite, because that is two extra natural weapons that they did not have.

While i am of course intimidated by your ability to generate blue words, i still hold that the Vestigial Arms only care that 5=5. to copy and paste (and change race)from Mr. SKR:

Q: How many attacks per round can the Tiefling make without the discovery?
A: 5. (Bite, claw, claw, kick, kick)
Q: How many attacks per round can the Tiefling make with the discovery?
A: 5. (Bite, claw, claw, claw, claw)
Q: Is the Tiefling with the discovery making any extra attacks per round compared to the Tiefling without?
A: No.
Q: So this doesn't violate the rules?
A: Correct.

Sczarni

1 person marked this as a favorite.

It always ends up being a weird discussion.

I'm really holding my breath for blackbloodtroll to appear with his signature "HANDS!!" comment.


I blew my spells per day trying to summon you in a thread you were already involved in. And summoned forum members cant use their own summoning powers. Someone will just have to send him a private message about this thread.


Imbicatus wrote:
You would have three Ranged attacks, at -4/-4/-4. You are also house ruling a repeating hand crossbow into existence, as the only varieties of repeating crossbow are standard and heavy.

nah it exists, its in Ultimate equipment.

"REPEATING HAND CROSSBOW
PRICE 800 GP
TYPE exotic

This weapon functions identically to a repeating heavy crossbow, except its damage, critical, and range values are equivalent to those of a hand crossbow instead."


In that thread it came down to total number of attacks was the only thing that mattered and type of attacks where NOT tracked in this. This was determined by direct answers from SKR. Here is a quote from that same thread.

SKR:"It's number of attacks. It's not tracking natural attacks vs. manufactured weapon attacks.

As the FAQ says: "The exact same restrictions would apply if your race had claws or you had some other ability to add claws to your limbs: the text of both discoveries says they do not give you any extra attacks per round, whether used as natural weapons, wielding manufactured weapons, or adding natural weapons to a limb that didn't originally have natural weapons."

Nothing in that says you need to be tracking what type of weapon you're making an attack with."


Tengu with a White-Haired Witch dip gets Claw/Claw/Bite/Hair as natural attacks. Late you can add a Helm of the Mammoth Lord for Gore.


Another option to get 4+attacks is to be a hunter or a druid and have pehaps a spinosaurus companion. A hunter spino PET Can have str 22 at level 1 if you want him to:)

Sczarni

graystone wrote:

In that thread it came down to total number of attacks was the only thing that mattered and type of attacks where NOT tracked in this. This was determined by direct answers from SKR. Here is a quote from that same thread.

SKR:"It's number of attacks. It's not tracking natural attacks vs. manufactured weapon attacks.

As the FAQ says: "The exact same restrictions would apply if your race had claws or you had some other ability to add claws to your limbs: the text of both discoveries says they do not give you any extra attacks per round, whether used as natural weapons, wielding manufactured weapons, or adding natural weapons to a limb that didn't originally have natural weapons."

Nothing in that says you need to be tracking what type of weapon you're making an attack with."

Yup. I was misremembering.

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