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How do you determine the spell levels of complicated bonus spells? The default case seems pretty accepted, but I’ve never seen anything official, for the general case. But what if your bonus spells are delayed or accelerated?
Case 0:
This is the default case. Consider the Winter Patron for Witches. It grants the spell Ice Storm at 6th character level, which is when Witches can cast 3rd level spells. If they treat Ice Storm as a 3rd level spell, then they get to cast it as a lower level spell than everyone else. It is generally accepted that this is the intended behavior. This FAQ http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9oyl covers something similar, but in that case the spell was already a lower spell level for some other class.
Case 1:
What if you get access to a spell later than the bonus spell intended? Consider that the Winter Patron again, but add the Patron Familiar option to it. The Patron Familiar causes you to gain your bonus spells one level later. So now, the Witch receives the spell Ice Storm at 7th level, which is when Witches can cast 4th level spells. So, does the Patron Familiar Witch now count Ice Storm as a 4th level spell? What about her other bonus spells? Does the witch now consider Resist Energy(Cold) a 3rd level spell, instead of its usual 2nd level?
Case 2:
What if you get access to a spell earlier than the bonus spell intended? Consider the Oracle’s Blackened and Haunted Curses. They grant spells at specified Oracle Curse levels, but these curses can be advanced beyond the Oracle’s current level. This can be achieved through either a Favored Class Bonus or through simple multi-classing advancing the effective level of the Curse beyond the level of the Oracle. How does the Oracle determine the Spell Level of these bonus spells?
I think in both cases you would use the class level at which you would have gained the bonus spells based on the original archetype or curse without further modifications. In case 2, this could mean that in some cases you would have a bonus spell that you cannot yet cast (because you lack the slots for it) -- actually, that case would be quite common anyway for characters who take one level in oracle and all other levels in other classes.
I don't understand the confusion. Every spell is its printed spell level. Whether you get it earlier or later has no impact.
Yes, this means that sometimes a character has a bonus spell that a higher level than her normal spells. But so what? This has always been the case with races that get SLAs for higher level spells.
Bonus spells get their own separate spell slots. So you may have several level 2 spell slots and a single level 3 bonus spell slot.
I don't understand the confusion. Every spell is its printed spell level. Whether you get it earlier or later has no impact.
Bonus spells don't tell you what spell level they are. Often a bonus spell gives you a spell that isn't even on your class's spell list.
So you are asking for spells from a different spell list. I know before they changed it, they had a FAQ that told you how to calculate the spell level of SLAs, but they removed it. I would have used the same methodology.
So you are asking for spells from a different spell list. I know before they changed it, they had a FAQ that told you how to calculate the spell level of SLAs, but they removed it. I would have used the same methodology.
So, do you think a Blackened Oracle1/Class8 would be able to cast scorching ray and flaming sphere as 1st level spells?
An oracle’s curse is based on her oracle level plus one for every two levels or Hit Dice other than oracle.
Like I said their were old FAQs that said how to calculate. Roughly it was the lowest spell level that was the same type (arcane/divine) of spell list.
So in your example, those would be 2nd level spells since they are 2nd level on all spell lists.
You get the bonus spells "in order." Your first bonus spell is level 1, your second level 2, your nth would be level n. It doesn't matter what level the spell is on any class list (there is a FAQ that clarifies this.) Look at the shaman list for clarification.
I didn't find anything in FAQ, so a link would be appreciated. Can you quote the shaman clarification you are talking about?
So you are asking for spells from a different spell list. I know before they changed it, they had a FAQ that told you how to calculate the spell level of SLAs, but they removed it. I would have used the same methodology.So, do you think a Blackened Oracle1/Class8 would be able to cast scorching ray and flaming sphere as 1st level spells?
An oracle’s curse is based on her oracle level plus one for every two levels or Hit Dice other than oracle.
yes [/joke]
Like I said their were old FAQs that said how to calculate. Roughly it was the lowest spell level that was the same type (arcane/divine) of spell list.
So in your example, those would be 2nd level spells since they are 2nd level on all spell lists.
That would mean that the Winter Patron Witch couldn't cast their Ice Storm at level 6 though, since for all classes that is a 4th level spell, and the witch can't cast 4th level spells until 7th level.
So you are asking for spells from a different spell list. I know before they changed it, they had a FAQ that told you how to calculate the spell level of SLAs, but they removed it. I would have used the same methodology.So, do you think a Blackened Oracle1/Class8 would be able to cast scorching ray and flaming sphere as 1st level spells?
An oracle’s curse is based on her oracle level plus one for every two levels or Hit Dice other than oracle.
I am pretty sure that you should take the simplest case and assume a single-classed character -- so in this case you assume Oracle 5, which makes Scorching Ray a 2nd level spell (conveniently, it happens to be a 2nd level cleric spell anyway). But it does help with Flaming Sphere.
That would mean that the Winter Patron Witch couldn't cast their Ice Storm at level 6 though, since for all classes that is a 4th level spell, and the witch can't cast 4th level spells until 7th level.
So a Drow Noble can't cast Deeper Darkness until they hit level 5 because it's a 3rd level spell like ability? I know spells and SLAs are different, but we have characters casting above their spell level all the time. This isn't anything new.
It means that your Winter Patron Witch would be able to cast a 4th level spell earlier than normal. That's all it means.
That would mean that the Winter Patron Witch couldn't cast their Ice Storm at level 6 though, since for all classes that is a 4th level spell, and the witch can't cast 4th level spells until 7th level.So a Drow Noble can't cast Deeper Darkness until they hit level 5 because it's a 3rd level spell like ability? I know spells and SLAs are different, but we have characters casting above their spell level all the time. This isn't anything new.
It means that your Winter Patron Witch would be able to cast a 4th level spell earlier than normal. That's all it means.
But arguing that way means that it would be valid for the multiclassed Oracle to use Flaming Sphere as a 1st level spell, because that's the level they were at when they gained it.
That would mean that the Winter Patron Witch couldn't cast their Ice Storm at level 6 though, since for all classes that is a 4th level spell, and the witch can't cast 4th level spells until 7th level.So a Drow Noble can't cast Deeper Darkness until they hit level 5 because it's a 3rd level spell like ability? I know spells and SLAs are different, but we have characters casting above their spell level all the time. This isn't anything new.
It means that your Winter Patron Witch would be able to cast a 4th level spell earlier than normal. That's all it means.
The mention of spell-like abilities just confuses things. Spell-like abilities include statements about how often you can use them, so you don't have to worry about having high enough level spell slots to power them.
If Ice Storm is a 4th level spell, though, a witch with the Winter patron would be unable to cast it since she has no 4th level spell slots at that point, not even specialized "patron" slots like the special domain slots of a cleric. So clearly Ice Storm is meant to be a 3rd level spell for a Winter Witch.
But arguing that way means that it would be valid for the multiclassed Oracle to use Flaming Sphere as a 1st level spell, because that's the level they were at when they gained it.
No you are saying to opposite. I'm saying the level of the character has no bearing on the level of the spell. Caster Level and Spell Level are distinct and separate.
A first level character could theoretically cast a 5th level spell if he had the scroll. This isn't unusual or game breaking. And it doesn't make the scroll a 1st level spell. Character wealth make this difficult but not impossible.
If Ice Storm is a 4th level spell, though, a witch with the Winter patron would be unable to cast it since she has no 4th level spell slots at that point, not even specialized "patron" slots like the special domain slots of a cleric. So clearly Ice Storm is meant to be a 3rd level spell for a Winter Witch.
That's the generally accepted opinion, but then what about Case 1 where the Witch has it added at 7th level instead of 6th.
But arguing that way means that it would be valid for the multiclassed Oracle to use Flaming Sphere as a 1st level spell, because that's the level they were at when they gained it.No you are saying to opposite. I'm saying the level of the character has no bearing on the level of the spell. Caster Level and Spell Level are distinct and separate.
A first level character could theoretically cast a 5th level spell if he had the scroll. This isn't unusual or game breaking. And it doesn't make the scroll a 1st level spell. Character wealth make this difficult but not impossible.
Then you are saying the 6th level Witch can't cast Ice Storm until 7th level, because that spell has a 4th level spell level for all casters.
I must be doing a poor job explaining myself. To be honest I don't know the Winter Witch example specifically, but let me build a hypothetical level 3 character with these spell slots:
Joe the Awesome
0-Level: 4
1-Level: 2
2-Level: 1
Joe gains a level and through some method (feat? archetype? race?) he gains access to Dispel Magic as a bonus spell. This is listed as a 3rd level spell on all spell lists. Now Joe has these spell slots as a level 4 character.
Joe the Awesome
0-Level: 4
1-Level: 3
2-Level: 2
3-Level: 1 (bonus spell only)
Joe has a 3rd level bonus spell slot that can only be used for Dispel Magic. Even though he is only Level 4 he's capable of casting one and only one 3rd level spell. He'll have to wait until Level 5 to get a slot he can use for any other spell from his spell list.
Winter is a Witch Patron:
Winter: 2nd — unshakable chill, 4th — resist energy (cold only), 6th — ice storm, 8th — wall of ice, 10th — cone of cold, 12th — freezing sphere, 14th — control weather, 16th — polar ray, 18th — polar midnight.
So, at 2nd level the Witch adds unshakable chill to her spell list. The 2nd level Witch can only cast 1st level spells. But if you look at the spell Unshakable Chill, you will see that it is a 2nd level spell on every class's spell list.
http://www.archivesofnethys.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Unshakable%20Chi ll
Now add the Patron Familiar option and all of these spells are gained a level later.
Witches’ familiars are often tied to their patrons, enhancing and reinforcing the spellcasters’ connections to the sources of their magical might. Just as a sorcerer can gain a bloodline familiar, a witch can gain a patron familiar by choosing one at 1st level in place of her standard familiar. A patron familiar acts in all ways like a standard witch’s familiar, with the addition of the special ability indicated below according to the witch’s patron. In addition, the witch gains her patron spells 1 level later than she normally would—gaining the patron spell she’d normally receive at 2nd level at 3rd level instead, and so on.
So, this is when things get really complicated, instead of just sort of complicated.
Joe has a 3rd level bonus spell slot that can only be used for Dispel Magic. Even though he is only Level 4 he's capable of casting one and only one 3rd level spell. He'll have to wait until Level 5 to get a slot he can use for any other spell from his spell list.
Is there some reference I'm not familiar with that ever says that gaining access to a bonus spell gives you an extra spell slot to cast it? By that logic, Clerics should get two Domain-specific slots at each level, one for each domain.
Alright, I follow you. Let's assume the first part and ignore the familiar for a second.
So when that character advances to level 6 and gains Ice Storm, she would add a single 4th Level bonus spell slot that could only be filled with Ice Storm. When she gets to Level 7 she would have two spell slots (one that has to be a ice storm and one that could be anything from her spell list).
If Ice Storm is a 4th level spell, though, a witch with the Winter patron would be unable to cast it since she has no 4th level spell slots at that point, not even specialized "patron" slots like the special domain slots of a cleric. So clearly Ice Storm is meant to be a 3rd level spell for a Winter Witch.That's the generally accepted opinion, but then what about Case 1 where the Witch has it added at 7th level instead of 6th.
You use the most standard possible case to calculate spell level. The only relevant factors are the fact that you are a witch, you have the Winter patron, and that patron grants the Ice Storm spell at a level when a witch can cast spells of up to 3rd level. The fact that you took an additional option that delayed your access to patron spells should not affect the spell levels of those spells already calculated from the levels at which standard witches get them.
The problem is that there is very little reference for bonus spells and levels anywhere, so we've just been making a lot of assumptions for a very long time. The problem with making assumptions for a very long time is that you start to think your way is the right way with nothing to really back it up.
It is too bad that the newer classes do not provide the same degree of specificity as the cleric domains, for which there is no issue in regard to what levels the domain spells are.
This question intrigued me so I read up a bit on the Witch and I think I have an answer. This may not be The Answer, but just my opinion.
Familiars can learn any number of spells, even spells that the witch cannot cast yet. Ultimate magic spells out how they can learn these spells, from other familiars or from scrolls(the 2 spells gained from leveling cannot be higher than the witch can cast).
Under Witches Familiar the Store Spells feature states (emphasis mine)
Starting at 2nd level, and every two levels thereafter, a witch’s familiar adds new bonus spells to the witch’s spell list based on her patron. These spells are automatically stored by the familiar and can be prepared as normal once they are gained.
So it says specifically that patron spells are prepared as normal, and gives no reference to changing spell levels. I would probably treat any patron spell given, if not on the witch spell list to default to the lowest level it appears on any list (this seems to agree with the faq quoted in the original post). This would squash any shenanigans with favored class level granting high level spells to low level slots, and also keep the witch from casting spells much sooner than was intended.
Edit: I also realize that just assuming the witch should cast the patron spell as the lowest any class can is not spelled out in the rules, it only has support from the aforementioned FAQ. I could see the option in defaulting to the rules for Spell-like Abilities which state
A monster’s spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.
So you could use the order to decide what level the witch should be casting a patron spell if it does not appear on her list. I can see support for either option.
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For the purposes of this discussion, we're talking about Bonus Spells from Bloodlines, Mysteries, and Patrons, which grant spells known.
Gaining a bonus spell through your Bloodline, Mystery, or Patron does not grant you a "floating bonus slot" to cast a higher level spell in. You gain the spell, as has been mentioned previously by others, at the highest level slot that you can cast when you gain it. I wish that I could link the source (it's somewhere in the last thread on this subject that I read) (EDIT: Nevermind, you linked the FAQ in your original post).
So, to your specific Witch with the Winter Patron question (Case 0), he gains it as a 3rd level spell.
Case 1 & Case 2 are excellent questions, however.
FAQ on calculating SL for SLAs.
The patron mechanic gives you a spell you can cast with your highest slot. This means early access to some spells. It also gives late access also. For late access, I think you could prepare it at either level, and get the DC for that level spell. I don't know how the Patron Familiar affects that. It either delays the gaining of the spell and has the corresponding increased SL or it delays without SL bump. I think without makes more sense. However, for anyone else, it is the standard level for the spell in their class.
For the curse spells, I think that would key off actual levels of oracle and not FCB or feats or levels in other classes. Same for sorcerers.
/cevah