| 19 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
"Prerequisite: Exotic Weapon Proficiency X" actually means "proficient with weapon X", right? Because if not...
A Tengu, or other character gaining proficiency with the Aldori Dueling Sword without taking the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat, does not qualify for the Aldori Swordlord Prestige Class, or the feats Aldori Dueling Mastery, Aldori Dueling Disciple, Duelist of the Roaring Falls, Duelist of the Shrouded Lake, Falling Water Gambit without taking a feat to be proficient with a weapon they are already proficient with.
A Tengu,Cleric of Achaekek, or other character gaining proficiency with the Sawtooth Sabre without taking the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat, does not qualify for the Red Mantis Assassin Prestige Class without taking a feat to be proficient with a weapon they are already proficient with.
A character gaining proficiency with the Net without taking the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat does not qualify for feat Net Adept, or the follow-up feats Net and Trident, Net Maneuvering or Net Trickery, without taking a feat to be proficient with a weapon they are already proficient with. The obvious race choice for a net user, a Half-Orc with the Beastmaster alternate racial trait, can in fact never learn those feats, as he treats nets as martial weapons (not exotic), and thus cannot choose the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Net) feat.
A Tengu, or other character gaining proficiency with the Falcata without taking the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat, does not qualify for the Taldan duelist feat without taking a feat to be proficient with a weapon they are already proficient with.
A Gunslinger, or other character gaining proficiency with firearms without taking the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat, does not qualify for the feats Rapid Reload or Technology Adept without taking a feat to be proficient with a weapon they are already proficient with.
There are issues with shield, armor and other weapon proficiencies, where they are entered as feats in the prerequisites. For example, Arcane Armor Mastery requires the Medium Armor Proficiency feat, but an Oracle/Sorcerer doesn't have that feat, they're just proficient with medium armor.
The Grand Marshal in the Inner Sea NPC Codex is an example of a character who has Rapid Reload illegally.
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I would rule at my table that you already have have the exotic weapon feat. just checked on hero labs ( I know that is not always totally correct but they do a good job) allowed me to get into the swordlord prestige class with out needing take the class. The gunslinger has as part of his class abilities the exotic weapon feat. a Tengo as part of his race has all exotic weapon proficiency (X)sword feats. any feats listed in your class build are feats,
The gunslinger has as part of his class abilities the exotic weapon feat. a Tengo as part of his race has all exotic weapon proficiency (X)sword feats. any feats listed in your class build are feats,
You mean in HeroLab, right? Because those things don't give you feats by the book, only proficiency.
I suggest the devs quickfix this with "being proficient with something means you get relevant proficiency X bonus feat".
I think this is resolved by the ruling regarding cleric proficiency with bastard swords - namely, that it's treated as exotic proficiency if it is the deity's favored weapon.
I think this is resolved by the ruling regarding cleric proficiency with bastard swords - namely, that it's treated as exotic proficiency if it is the deity's favored weapon.
Not quite. The ruling stop just short of specifying "Exotic Weapon Proficiency" (which is a feat), but uses small-p proficiency instead (which is an ability you can have that isn't necessarily a feat).
I suggest the devs quickfix this with "being proficient with something means you get relevant proficiency X bonus feat".
I would suggest that this is already considered a Rule as Unwritten. It would be a super easy FAQ though. I suspect it would be worded more like "treated as as having the proficiency's feat" though.
This is ridiculous, but probably nessesary. It would solve an argument with someone I've discussed this same point over.
It makes no sense to have to spend a feat because you're not proficient from a certain way. The feat is designed as a pre-requisite because you need to have full proficiency with the weapon. That's the entire purpose of that feat. The intent is obvious.
I'll FAQ it as well, just so we don't get stupid Rules Lawyers ruining the fun of players.
It works. Don't worry about it.
i could have sworn there was a faq or something already somewhere that said if you were proficient you effectively had the feat.
I believe the OP is extrapolating from THIS FAQ, to state that
"Having Proficiency =/= Having the requisite feat that grants proficiency."
The FAQ only speaks about armor, however it is a reasonable interpretation if you accept and use this FAQ.
Please understand I am not espousing either way, just saying given the FAQ from the designers I can see the OP's point.
I believe the OP is extrapolating from THIS FAQ, to state that
Having Proficiency =/= Having the requisite feat that grants proficiency.
The FAQ only speaks about armor, however it is a reasonable interpretation if you accept and use this FAQ.
Please understand I am not espousing either way, just saying given the FAQ from the designers I can see the OP's point.
IMO, the difference between Medium Armor Proficiency and being proficient with Medium Armor was crystal clear long before that FAQ. It's a stupid, stupid artifact of D&D 3.0 that should have been excised in the PF beta.
Exotic proficiency feat means you're capable of using it a certain way.
Bastard sword. Without the exotic feat its a two handed weapon, with the feat its one or two.
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So you may be proficient in it via your class/race but you can only use it as its base.
That is contradicted by this FAQ, which states specifically that the cleric class ability that gives proficiency with the bastard sword gives exotic-level proficiency.
Cleric: Does a cleric, whose deity's favored weapon is the bastard sword, receive free martial or exotic weapon proficiency with the sword?
Since the bastard sword is listed as an exotic weapon, he receives the Exotic Weapon proficiency with the weapon, allowing him to use it one-handed.
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The intention of the "not counting as having the feat" FAQ is to prevent fighters from retraining their proficiencies into other feats. RAI, as far as I can tell, is that you have the feat for prereq purposes, and indeed for every positive purpose - except for it actually counting as a "feat" for retraining.
The intention of the "not counting as having the feat" FAQ is to prevent fighters from retraining their proficiencies into other feats. RAI, as far as I can tell, is that you have the feat for prereq purposes, and indeed for every positive purpose - except for it actually counting as a "feat" for retraining.
That's my understanding as well.
I would assume that an organization who's deity wields a bastard sword would give you full prof in it including exotic.
So you may be proficient in it via your class/race but you can only use it as its base.That is contradicted by this FAQ,
So, you're saying that whether or not you get exotic proficiency or martial proficiency via a class feature depends on the specific class?
That seems needlessly nuanced to me, and creates more issues than it solves. I would assume that a fantastic race whose legendary schtick is that they're awesome swordsmen (seriously, look up the tengu myths) would have full proficiency in those swords including exotic.
And from a gameplay standpoint, it's much easier and more sensible to say "all X are Y" than "some X are Y, some X are not-Y, but we're going to force you to make a guess at which are which."
Exotic proficiency feat means you're capable of using it a certain way.
Bastard sword. Without the exotic feat its a two handed weapon, with the feat its one or two.
except the base bastard sword is a one-handed weapon, but can be used if you have martial weapon proficiency in two-hands without penalty.
P.S. a bastard sword is smaller than a longsword.
P.S. a bastard sword is smaller than a longsword.
Not in Golarion. The words in Gygax-ese are slightly different than they are in English. Rather like when you visit a "librarie" in France, they get kind of annoyed when you ask to borrow the merchandise and take it home.
P.S. a bastard sword is smaller than a longsword.Not in Golarion. The words in Gygax-ese are slightly different than they are in English. Rather like when you visit a "librarie" in France, they get kind of annoyed when you ask to borrow the merchandise and take it home.
the bastard swords description though.
"A bastard sword is about 4 feet in length"
oh actually they're equal, neat.
"and a straight double-edged blade of around 100–122 cm (39–48 in)"
P.S. a bastard sword is smaller than a longsword.Not in Golarion. The words in Gygax-ese are slightly different than they are in English. Rather like when you visit a "librarie" in France, they get kind of annoyed when you ask to borrow the merchandise and take it home.
the bastard swords description though.
"A bastard sword is about 4 feet in length"
oh actually they're equal, neat.
"and a straight double-edged blade of around 100–122 cm (39–48 in)"
I don't know where you got that second quote, but the SRD says (regarding the longsword)
This sword is about 3-1/2 feet in length.
Exotic proficiency feat means you're capable of using it a certain way.
Bastard sword. Without the exotic feat its a two handed weapon, with the feat its one or two.
except the base bastard sword is a one-handed weapon, but can be used if you have martial weapon proficiency in two-hands without penalty.
P.S. a bastard sword is smaller than a longsword.
Bastard Sword
Price 35 gp
Type exotic
A bastard sword is about 4 feet in length, making it too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. You can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.
emphasis mine, still by default an exotic weapon, that can be used without penalty as a two-handed martial weapon.
I don't know where you got that second quote, but the SRD says (regarding the longsword)
This sword is about 3-1/2 feet in length.
weird. :P
I don't know where you got that second quote, but the SRD says (regarding the longsword)
This sword is about 3-1/2 feet in length.weird. :P
Not really. D20pfsrd, as good as it is, has a tendency to pick up third party material and reuse it without telling anyone. The bit you cited looks like an excerpt from Wikipedia to me....
Not that this digression about weapon sizes matters.
The point is that if something -- no matter what -- gives you proficiency with "bastard sword," that should be exotic proficiency, because that's what the bastard sword is.
If something gives you "martial proficiency" and you apply it to the bastard sword, then it's only martial proficiency. The point is that fighters, by default, are not (fully) proficient with the bastard sword, but they do have martial proficiencies generally. Similarly a wizard who took "Martial Weapon Proficiency: bastard sword" would not be (fully) proficient, unless they had proficiency from another source (like being a tengu).
(And that wizard is an idiot, yes. The only reason I could think to do that is because it's a feat you MUST take at first level, and you don't make the BAB prerequisite for Exotic Weapon Proficiency.)
everyone wins?
nah my pride was damaged.
The way i understand things is that you can't actually take Martial weapon for those weapon types. If you have full martial prof. then you can use a bastard sword 2h. If your prof. with a longsword you can fight with a sawtooth saber without penalty but also without bonuses. But if you get a class feature that says "You are prof. with Sawtooth Sabers." you have exotic since that's all their is. And yes this means if a feat requires Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Sawtooth Saber you have it.
It seems to me that the sweet spot would be that any class/race/whatever feature that grants proficiency in a specific weapon (say deity's favored) would act as Exotic (where applicable). However, any feature that grants broad proficiency (like all swords) should only grant the minimum to use the weapon without penalty.
So, Tengu get the ability to wield any sword. They can use a sawtooth as a martial, without the special function. They also get any Exotic swords that don't have dual-modes, say the Rhoka. However, the Tengu text calls out bastard and elven curved. So, I'd say they get Exotic for those two.
It seems to me that the sweet spot would be that any class/race/whatever feature that grants proficiency in a specific weapon (say deity's favored) would act as Exotic (where applicable). However, any feature that grants broad proficiency (like all swords) should only grant the minimum to use the weapon without penalty.
So, Tengu get the ability to wield any sword. They can use a sawtooth as a martial, without the special function. They also get any Exotic swords that don't have dual-modes, say the Rhoka. However, the Tengu text calls out bastard and elven curved. So, I'd say they get Exotic for those two.
The problem with that is it creates issues with proficiency and other feats and such. There is only one prof. for a bastard sword or sawtooth saber. They have other functions but if your proficient your proficient.
As far as exotic vs martial for those weapons, I'd rule in favour of how the weapon is listed in the actual charts. A bastard sword is an exotic weapon, with a certain exception. In general, it's exotic, and proficiency giving thingies give the exotic version. (Otherwise it's just a greatsword at -1 damage.)
There is no such thing as "Aldori Sword Proficiency (but only to treat it as a longsword)". It does not exist.
There is either Aldori Sword Proficiency, or Martial Weapon Proficiency (that allows you to treat an Aldori Sword as a long sword).
If you are proficient with a weapon, you are fully proficient with it. Tengu states you are proficient with all sword, not "partially proficient" or "treated as having martial proficiency".
There is no such thing as "Aldori Sword Proficiency (but only to treat it as a longsword)". It does not exist.
I disagree. MWP (Aldori Dueling Sword) is a thing.
I already suggested a (very minor) reason why you would want this; if you can't make the +1 BAB requirement for EWP, you can still take MWP (and possibly retrain next level.)
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Oh god, someone brought up Bastard Swords.
Nobody wins in a rules discussion about Bastard Swords.
I am already trying to work past my Bastard Sword debate PTSD.
People actually had temporary suspended accounts, due to the reactions to the debate.
The OP didn't even mention them, and don't see how they are truly relevant enough to bring to the discussion.
The size issue, the bastard sword and whether Tengu are exotically or martially proficient with Sawtooth Sabers are all tangents to the central issue: Prerequisites are written as if proficiencies were always feats.